22 Mag PUG for Mountain Lion Defense??

[NavyVet1959]

I had ordered some .25 caliber power loads off of a seller on eBay last week and they were delivered today.  From my research into the size of the .25 caliber power loads and the SAAMI chamber specifications, I had suspected that they might just fit a .22 mag chamber.

As it turns out, they do fit.  They  are not excessively tight, but they will not fall out of the cylinder if you turn it upside down.  They are easily pushed out with a small rod.  The rim of the cartridge fits perfectly into the insert for the rim on the cylinder and the cartridge sits just slight below the edge of the cylinder.  I've had .22 mag ammo that had a thick enough rim that it would sit proud of the cylinder -- enough so that it was not possible to rotate the cylinder.  These cartridges fit a lot better than those.

I'll disassemble one of each of the cartridges later to day and weigh the powder charges before I actually try shooting them in the firearm.

[Uncle_Lee]

If you don't know the type of powder, what good will the weight be???

[NavyVet1959]

If you don't know the type of powder, what good will the weight be???

For the type of use, it's going to be a fast powder.  Seeing the powder and the weight gives you a data point when comparing against other power loads.  For the .22 caliber power loads that I've disassembled, it looked like this for the gray and brown:





The gray ones were sold under the Bostitch name and contained 1.0 gr of a charcoal colored flake powder.  The brown ones were sold under the Bluepoint name and contained 1.9 gr of a greenish yellow powder.

I haven't used a chrony on any of these with the NAA mini-revolver, but I did try them with a .22LR bolt action rifle using the 55 gr bullets.

With the #1 load, I was getting 959 fps and extraction was possible via the bolt. That works out to be 112 ft-lbs.

With the #2 load, I was getting 1349 fps and extraction was not possible via the bolt (I had to use a rod). That works out to be 222 ft-lbs.

So, the #1 load is looking like 10 ft-lbs more muzzle energy than the CCI Standard Velocity rounds, but a bit less than the "high velocity" or "hyper velocity" offerings.

The #2 load looks to be definitely above any of the .22LR offerings, but not quite in the .22 mag power range.

[bbgun]

If the cat attacks you none of these are helpful.  Any NAA, anything else you can think of.  The only chance:  One of the good bear sprays right in the face.  Only chance.

[NavyVet1959]

Disassembled the .25 power loads and weighed the powder charges.  The Omark S3 Brown load was 1.4 gr and the S4 Black load was 1.6 gr.





Test fired both loads in the NAA mini-revolver with the .22 mag cylinder with a 55 gr 0.225" cast pure lead bullet seated about 1/8" from the end of the chamber / cylinder.  No damage to gun and still have the same number of fingers.

[Codger1]

I was gratified to see common sense opinions on this post.  On a motorcycle forum I'm on, a question like this would soon get an opinion that nothing less than a .500 Smith would do. A little hard to conceal, LOL.

I have a Mini Master in magnum and LR that would give impressive velocities but I'm not sure if the bullet could be placed where it would do the most good in an attack. I won't make a suggestion since it would be 'bigger is better' .
Having been a reloader for over 40 years, I would be very hesitant to consider doing something to 'soup up' a .22. 

[top dog]

OV-1D,
Yep,I tend to agree. Yes,I like to experiment,but when it comes to staking my life on something,I will stick with the tried and true.

Some folks like to do add on to their guns. If that is what they like to do,fine but I prefer pretty much to stay with stock.

Reminds me of what a guy does with his favorite car that he soups up and puts lots of stuff on to it.

What is the last thing he puts on that car???

A for sale sign!!!!

                                                                            Top Dog

[redhawk4]

My advice is to always hike with a partner. Pick someone who is slower than you are.

A 22 mag head shot will get the cat to release your slow partner though

I know I'm saying that initially as a joke, but having seen some accounts about how Mountain Lions latch on to a victims head and won't let go even when hit with sticks etc. a well placed head shot might be the best way to save a life in that situation, you could probably get in really close, while the Cat is busy with its "prey". I saw one account where the "fast partner" ended up running for help and thought that if only they'd had gun the outcome would have been different. I wouldn't like to rely on a PUG going head on with a big cat, last time I was close to one I had a 44 Mag, but would much rather have had a long gun. However the noise and blast from 44 Mag scared the Cougar off before it came close enough to need to actually shoot it. A 22 Mag would also likely work in that respect too, if driving the animal away is what's needed. If you can only do a Mini I would consult the NAA ballistic charts, you'll find a longer barreled model will can have quite a bit more velocity and isn't necessarily harder to conceal depending how you do it. It will also be more accurate with the longer sighting radius.

[top dog]

Redhawk,
I tend to agree with you.  Best bet is just not to get into that situation,much easier said than done!!!

It seems that virtually anyone who has survived a mountain lion/cougar attack said that the cats came out of nowhere and were on them in a flash!

Considering that these cats are cunning predators,that is what they do very well.

                                                                                                            Top Dog

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Running with Pugs?   A  new Costner move!

Your best bet would be to run or hike with a dog.

Even a big dog won't win a fight with a wild cat but if you know your dog well and pay attention to him he will pick up on the cat long before you do.  Plus the cat will go after the dog first.

The dog does not need to be big just able to keep up.

------
Cat bait.

[Uncle_Lee]

Running with Pugs?   A  new Costner move!

Your best bet would be to run or hike with a dog.

Even a big dog won't win a fight with a wild cat but if you know your dog well and pay attention to him he will pick up on the cat long before you do.  Plus the cat will go after the dog first.

The dog does not need to be big just able to keep up.

------
Cat bait.

The cat will be busy eating the dog while you get away.
Plenty of dogs down at the shelter.....

[NavyVet1959]

The cat will be busy eating the dog while you get away.
Plenty of dogs down at the shelter.....

Finally a use for those obnoxious yippy dogs like Chihuahuas and Dachshunds.

[OV-1D]

  All cats large and small are opportunists , everything I've read about cougars is they attack from behind and go for the neck , head areas . They really don't like going nose to nose with anything especially anything that's pissed off but protecting cubs is a whole different matter . So a good high backpack is a great deterrent for getting killed anyhow . If one is quick enough it can be declawed with a large pair of pliers before it wraps itself around you and tears you in half , Ha ,Ha .  P.S. while he's looking at his paws and whining in disbelief you can work on his fangs from behind .

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Plenty of dogs down at the shelter.....
[/quote]

Some years back the shelter was adopting out large dogs to the same people every few weeks.  They were very happy. Then they found out that these people were immigrants from a part of the world that eats dog. 

Now it's harder to adopt a dog than a child!

[OV-1D]

  Any of you old guys remember Francis Langford well she had a spread down here and had peacocks roaming everywhere . During and around Thanksgiving Day they would come up missing a few every year . Still do but not as often .
  The only cougars down here in Florida that are primarily left are 40-60 year old females and I was told they bite pretty hard even without their teeth . Ho ,Ho ,Ho . No I mean Ha ,Ha ,Ha . ................ OUCH ! .

  Correction : 35-85 year olds .

[redhawk4]

Redhawk,
I tend to agree with you.  Best bet is just not to get into that situation,much easier said than done!!!

It seems that virtually anyone who has survived a mountain lion/cougar attack said that the cats came out of nowhere and were on them in a flash!

Considering that these cats are cunning predators,that is what they do very well.

                                                                                                            Top Dog

Always having a companion and both being armed should at least prevent a fatality, from the attack accounts I've seen it appears the human anatomy confuses the cats, probably because our necks are relatively short compared to their normal prey, this means they clamp down on the skull and then can't kill you as efficiently as a deer where they clamp down on it's neck. This does give time for a companion to kill the animal and save the other person. If you don't see the attack coming and are on your own, it may well not matter what gun you have. I have some mountain property and there are a lot of cougars there based on trail cam pictures, but I've hardly ever seen one. A couple of times we've had one circling the camp, I've resorted to firing a gun to scare them off. It's best to keep such animals scared of humans IMO. A dog will definitely give you an early warning, my dogs really old but her fur stands on end and she starts growling long before I've been able to discern anything. The first time she did it I wasn't sure what she was bothered by, eventually picked up the Cougar with a flashlight some distance away. The fact you have time by being alerted and have your firearm in hand has to be invaluable in terms of everyone's safety. I also feel the Cat is very unlikely to attack several people who are alert and moving around and making some noise as opposed to it sneaking up on an individual. Joggers get attacked because they seem to be fleeing and look like prey. On my land there are lots of deer, elk etc. so I'd imagine any Cougars are well fed and therefore much less likely to feel the need to experiment on different prey, I think the one's I've seen are most likely just curious and checking us out from a distance.

[RogueTS1]

Sorry, if said cat is attacking my little friend, said cat is going to get filled with lead. The .45 Colt and .45 acp variety. He will then be tracked down and end up a rug and head hanging upon my wall.

[redhawk4]

Sorry, if said cat is attacking my little friend, said cat is going to get filled with lead. The .45 Colt and .45 acp variety. He will then be tracked down and end up a rug and head hanging upon my wall.

I wouldn't let one eat my dog either, it would end up dead. I know my dog would try to do the same for me, but with her arthritis and no 44 mag it likely wouldn't go well for either of us. I'm not sure what the rules are here in Utah about keeping the pelt for a rug, I think if it's a self defense issue the sate gets it to avoid the temptation to have a SD situation "accidentally on purpose"

[top dog]

Past experience,at least for me,shows that dogs can alert you to danger long before you even know it is there. Just watch their body language and pick it up from there.

Deer that have been killed by coyotes or wolves usually are consumed from from the back end forward,much like they kill their prey. Deer or any other animals killed by cats are usually consumed from the neck down as cats mostly attack the back of the neck.

Most,if not all,joggers/bicyclists are attacked from the back,side and always in the upper body by the neck. These attacks are swift and by their nature quite violent.

I don't know if you could really draw and shoot your gun quickly enough to thwart off an attack effectively.

                                                                                                                   Top Dog

                                                                                                           

[zburkett]

Two quick points.  A dog running along side you is protection from a number of threats and a Mag Mini is the most power you can get from a really easy to carry, light weight, concealable pistol.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Dog + Gun is your best bet.

But in places like the canyons and hills above L.A. and all of SoCal Coyotes hunt in packs. They have no fear of people. They will confront you and take your dog. Even the biggest baddest dog is no match for a pack of 5 or 6 if they are hungry. At night we know when a coyote has made a kill. First the dogs all over the neighborhood start a low sad howl. They pick it up first. Then the coyote start screaming call and respond with the rest of the pack. The dog goes under the bed.

A lone coyote will run to live and fight another day unless he is cornered or sick. But they are very smart. They perfect the pack attack.

[zburkett]

Dog + armed man = pack.  In the one case where I went against a pack (feral dogs) with my dog, one dead and one wounded feral dog and it was over.  If you don't understand that from your dog's point of view you are only the dominant dog in the pack you really shouldn't have a dog.

[top dog]

Canines have been pack hunters pretty much since time began. If there is a lone coyote,they usually are scroungers and target small prey. But when it comes to taking down larger animals,that is where the pack comes in.

In my area,there are lots of posters on phone poles advertising missing "fluffies" and "fidos". A sure sign that a coyote  population in the area is significant..

In my area,the past six months has seen 6 dogs injured or killed while being walked or tended to by their owners. This is an urban area not on trails in the woods or parks.

The problem exists and will not go away.

                                                                                                          Top Dog

[zburkett]

That is why God and Sandy made Minis.  The Mini is snake head accurate with a floppy wobbler and the .22 Mag is adequate for coyotes.

[OV-1D]

For a pack of coyotes I believe a semi auto is in order , multiple hits on multiple targets .   

[redhawk4]

For a pack of coyotes I believe a semi auto is in order , multiple hits on multiple targets .   

For a handgun I'd like my Beretta M9 with 15+1 if there are a number of Coyotes, with good self defense ammo one well placed shot would drop them in their tracks. I have never seen a pack of coyotes, but suspect if you shot one or two they'd likely get the idea to leave you alone from a combination of the deaths and the noise. They'd have to be very hungry. I'd still rather have a 22 mag mini than nothing though, I still think you could likely scare them off and kill a couple, either way I'd rather go down fighting.

[RogueTS1]

draw and shoot accurately in .75 seconds including reaction time.................. pretty good odds there is going to be a dead cat; especially if he is targeting my little buddy and not me. If it somehow got away with my little buddy, the property would be ravaged until it had been hunted down and taken.

PS: around my parts the authorities may not ever know of the cat's demise and hence would most likely end up on my wall and floor; especially if on my personal properties.

[OV-1D]

  I agree Rogue absolutely nothing or nobody messes with my pack of buddies .

[zburkett]

For a pack of coyotes I believe a semi auto is in order , multiple hits on multiple targets .   

OV, I understand your statement but disagree.  As for a small .380, I am more accurate with a mini than I am with the Ruger LCP that I went from when I started carrying a Mini.  If I had a choice I would go with an AK or my leaver action .357.

[OV-1D]

  How about a Ruger 10/22 with a fifty round mag. Zburkett ?  I can send a real heavy barrage downwind in a hurry with my 10/22 and its so accurate one would think its a mini guided missile launcher , love it a bunch .

[zburkett]

Or even an AK with a fifty round drum.  They are just so dam hard to make fit in my pocket.

[top dog]

Which brings us back to packing a Mini as it will fit in your pocket.

                                                        Top Dog

[EvilWayz]

A Pug is better than a sharp stick.

Not as good as a slow hiking partner though.

Would depend on the size of the stick and where you hit him at.

[top dog]

Interest bunch of replies anything from PUGs to sharp sticks and beyond. Again I would have to say that small and light is probably the way to go as that would be the weapon you are most likely to have with you.

Virtually everyone who has survived a mountain lion/cougar attack had said that it just came from no where. Coyote attacks seem to be different as there is some sort of time between sighting and actual attack but not always though.

A friend of mine was hunting squirrels with a 22lr rifle when he felt that something was watching him. He looked over to some brush and saw a cougar about 25 ft away.
He knew if he started to run he would be toast so he just sat there for a few moments and that cat vanished like a puff of smoke.

He then slowly walked back to the cabin making sure he checked in all directions each foot step of the way.

I don't think that the squirrel rifle would have done much good against a mountain lion/cougar.

                                                                                            Top Dog

[OV-1D]

 Seriously speaking as with any attacking animal as Clint would say " you gotta get plum mad dog mean " . Seek to destroy and also remember these animals kill by mouth so shove whatever you can down their throats , works with alligators so I suspect its good for all hungry eaters , sure your going to get cut and bleed maybe but its all over having anything stuck in and down their throats no matter what it is , besides its a big target . The best defense is a great offence .