.22 pocket pistol suggestions?

[bill_deshivs]

And the Colt and it's copies are ALL copies of the Star DK.

[bouncey]

Single action huh...  Do those have a firing pin safety?  How heavy is the trigger pull?  Cocked & locked with a light trigger scares the snot out of me.  All that potential energy stored up and ready to fall.  Probably a training and familiarity issue.

[zburkett]

Its like the old story of the Texas Ranger who carried his 1911 cocked and locked.  When asked if that was dangerous he answered, "you bet ua."

[cfsharry]

To clarify Z's astute comment; that Ranger meant 'dangerous' to the bad guy.
Nothing beats a clean breaking single action trigger for accuracy, (unless you're that Miculek shooting machine). I have my triggers at 4.5-5lbs which is right for me but perhaps not for the next guy.
A single action semi auto carried cocked and locked in a good holster will not go off by itself.

[bouncey]

I'm sure you're right.  If I could figure out how to keep it concealed, I'd carry our HS2000 (read: SA-XD) which operationally is sort of like a 1911 without a thumb safety.  But I've shot it a bunch of times so I trust it.

Some of the pocket guns mentioned already also appear to be single action cocked & locked.

[redhawk4]

My favorite small caliber deep concealment pocket pistol is my Beretta 950 in 25 Auto. It's small and light and has a very fast rate of fire with the single action trigger with 8+1 rounds on hand and a fast reload if required. The tip up barrel also overrides the one thing I don't like with most single action semi auto's which is when you need to lower the hammer with a loaded chamber, popping up the barrel makes it easy to do this and to clear the chamber if needed. They are great little pistols, it's such a shame Beretta discontinued that model, because they are pricey  to acquire now, you can get them in 22 short and LR, but I prefer the 25 Auto for center fire reliability.

[bouncey]

Earlier today I went to a big gun show.  Only found a few non-.380 pocket pistols of any kind, and most of those were NAA minis - usually with a knife/gun combo holster.  The joke going around was: it's in case you don't know what kind of fight you're going to.    I think I might've helped sell a few minis.

Of the few remaining non-.380 non-NAA pocket pistols, some were antiques, but I also saw 4 secondhand tip ups.  A Beretta .32 (it's still a chunk), a Taurus with uncomfortable squishy grips, a Beretta in .22 short (alas!), and... a Beretta 21A in .22 LR.  Perfect!  Love it!  I want one!!!  Okay, sure, it's black and I'd rather have stainless.  But good enough.

They wanted $300 plus tax and background check fee.  Is that a decent price?  I ended up passing on the deal this time due to lack of information.  Pretty much everything else at that gun show was priced at or above MSRP.  I had to assume I could beat that price elsewhere.  Was I mistaken?  Should I attempt to go back early in the morning and hope it's still there?

Ended up paying cash at an unlicensed dealer, no background check, no records kept... for an overpriced piece of raspberry fudge. 

Also interested in Taurus PT-22 PLY if the size and hand feel are similar enough to Beretta.  I'm a little hesitant about DAO triggers though.  Bad experience with a Kel-Tec P-11 way back in the day.  DA/SA is more my speed.

[bouncey]

In case anyone was wondering, the gun show was Tanner in Denver.  No joke, even Jimenez pistols typically were over $150, and Ruger SR-22 was marked $350-$450.

[bill_deshivs]

The Beretta 950 was never made in .22lr. The 950 in .25 is a very good little carry gun.

The Beretta 21 is made in .22lr. Many 21s have ignition problems. I can't recommend them for carry.

[redhawk4]

The Beretta 950 was never made in .22lr. The 950 in .25 is a very good little carry gun.

The Beretta 21 is made in .22lr. Many 21s have ignition problems. I can't recommend them for carry.

You are correct on there being no 950 in 22 LR, I could have sworn I'd seen them, but was probably confusing the 21 or the fact that a lot of times when they are for sale people just put 22. Either way I'll take a 950 in 25 Auto over a 22 in any semi auto for self defense.

" The 950 in .25 is a very good little carry gun"   I'm glad we can agree on that     I like it for ease of concealment, and if you have to use a small handgun with a small caliber I like the available 9 shots, 25 Auto may be a weak round but anyone taking 9 shots rapid fire at close range is going to have a bad day. Also as most people are not going to want to be shot by any gun, 9 rounds gives you the potential to keep a few assailants at bay too. The only potential downside is being a semi auto, it could malfunction but mine has never ever missed a beat so I'm confident in it's abilities. I wish someone would load a slightly hot 25 load, I'm sure there's some potential there, but I think there's reluctance to move from the absolute standard because of a number of very poor quality guns produced in 25 Auto. Some are so bad that there barrels dimensions led to the round under performing considerably that only enhances the legendary weakness of the round. In a quality gun like the Beretta the velocities are about the same as 22 mag in the short barreled NAA revolvers,based on their ballistic figures, so performance, or perhaps the lack of it is greatly exaggerated by many commentators.

[bouncey]

I keep thinking someone needs to invent a centerfire .25 magnum for defensive use.  Call it a centerfire alternative to .22 mag, much like .25 acp was a centerfire answer to .22 LR.  Respectable power in a readily double-stackable format.  15 shots from a 12 oz package...  That would be very cool.

[edit to add:  Yeah I know about .25 NAA.  Case is too wide for what I have in mind.]

While waiting for my soup to cool off I did a quick small-bore cartridge census.

.22 LR:  approx 3300  [ETA: ...and I'd trust maybe a quarter of it in a defensive handgun]
.25 acp:  0

I already stock half a dozen different cartridges in my armory.  Any additional types will have to provide a compelling value proposition.  Not so sure .25 auto can do that, at least compared to .22 wmr or 12 gauge shotgun.  I'll try to keep an open mind though.

[redhawk4]

I keep thinking someone needs to invent a centerfire .25 magnum for defensive use.  Call it a centerfire alternative to .22 mag, much like .25 acp was a centerfire answer to .22 LR.  Respectable power in a readily double-stackable format.  15 shots from a 12 oz package...  That would be very cool.

[edit to add:  Yeah I know about .25 NAA.  Case is too wide for what I have in mind.]

While waiting for my soup to cool off I did a quick small-bore cartridge census.

.22 LR:  approx 3300  [ETA: ...and I'd trust maybe a quarter of it in a defensive handgun]
.25 acp:  0

I already stock half a dozen different cartridges in my armory.  Any additional types will have to provide a compelling value proposition.  Not so sure .25 auto can do that, at least compared to .22 wmr or 12 gauge shotgun.  I'll try to keep an open mind though.

I understand the case of the 25 Auto is big enough to increase performance quite considerably, I've heard of people handloading getting over 1,000 fps with a 50 gr bullet. There's no doubt that performance could be increased well above the old standard with the use of modern fast burning powders suited to the short barrels as this has been done with just about every other handgun round. It would also be easy to make a sort of 25 Auto Magnum that would give the extra "zip" but not fit in existing guns. The 25 Auto has taken such a bashing over it's performance, mainly because many do not understand the loss in velocity from short barrels with 22 LR and 22 Mag. They've heard 22 LR is weak because someone had it in a short barreled handgun and then wrongly assume that 25 is much worse because velocity is 760 fps and 22 LR is 1200 fps or whatever because they look at rifle barrel length ballistics.

I use various ammo from Double Tap in my handguns, they have a great range of ammo that performs much better than the standards in short barreled guns, as an example their 38 special will push a 125 gr at 1100 fps out of the short J frame barrel. I wish they'd look at loading 25 Auto, but I think the problem is probably one of overall demand when you have a round that has been belittled, mostly ignorantly for so long. The other issue is there are still so many old cheap and badly made small pistols in existence there may be liability concerns.

It's rather ironic that a round that's been so universally derided, was actually used  so widely in crime and responsible for so many killings at one time that it precipitated the part of the Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibiting the importation of inexpensive handguns.

[bouncey]

It's rather ironic that a round that's been so universally derided, was actually used  so widely in crime and responsible for so many killings at one time that it precipitated the part of the Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibiting the importation of inexpensive handguns.

I'm sure .25 auto was a big part of it, but so was .22 short.  My dad has an old .22 short revolver from way back in the day.  I think it's German made.  Funny thing is, if you look at both the letter of the law and its practical effect, it amounted to protectionism for American gun makers and local gun stores.  Lock out imports and slow down mail order sales...

Starting to warm up to the idea of a ".25 magnum" - maybe just a rimless .25 auto lengthened by 2mm and loaded to max pressure.  Or load standard .25 ACP to its full potential and sell it as +P with big bold warning labels on the box.

Now I'm haunting Armslist and Gunbroker looking for decent price on a Beretta 21A.  Handling that one at the gun show made me feel like sunshine and rainbows inside.  In a manly sort of way I mean.  Harrumph harrumph.

[RogueTS1]

Very nice 950 Redhawk. I love this little gun. As you stated; very reliable. I find the 21a in .22 to be very reliable also after one gives it the proper caressing needed.

I will take the 6.35mm/.25acp round over the .22LR in a small pistol every day of the week. I like both but I simply love the 6.35mm.

[bouncey]

Well I made a few phone calls and now a Beretta 21A is on its way to my local FFL.  I'll let ya know how it goes.  If I like the basic concept but later decide to get a .25, hey, there's always room in the safe for another pistol of that size.

[bill_deshivs]

The 950 Berettas are much smaller than the 21.

[zburkett]

For what its worth, the one time I saw a pistol fired for home defense and the one time I pulled out a pistol thinking I might have to shoot someone, were both little .25s.  In both cases that was enough gun to solve the problem with no one being hurt.

[bouncey]

The 950 Berettas are much smaller than the 21.

Good to know!  Will have to keep an eye peeled for one in stores.  I like small pistols.  Little engineering marvels.

[boone123]

I never see the 950 BS Beretta's in gun, or pawn shops. I saw one at a gun show about 6 years ago. Way overpriced. Started looking and have since bought 2 in 22 short, and 1 in 25 cal. at gun shows,   I picked up a INOX  21A yesterday, in 22lr, to go with the 2 blue ones I already have.  It looked unfired, but shot it today with CCI mini mags. Works great. They are kind of like minis. If one is good, more is better...

[bouncey]

They are kind of like minis. If one is good, more is better...

Contrast that with my Kel-Tec mouse guns:  Got a P-32 because it was cheap and fits in my pocket.  Got a P3AT later when those hit the market, but only because it shoots a bigger bullet.  Still have and carry both.  I like mine but have no desire to buy several more.  They're all about getting down to business - not about artistry or craftsmanship.

Minis, on the other hand...

Out of curiosity, how much does INOX cost these days?  The one currently in transit is blued, around $200 not counting postage and FFL.

[boone123]

$300 with the box and paper work, plus tax. Looked like never fired.  The first thing I discovered when I shot it was, with the stainless it was much easier to see the sights  than on the blue ones.

[grayelky]

One of, if not the most powerful "bang for the ounce" guns on the market is, in my humble opinion, is the S&W model 351. It is a 7 shot .22 mag that weighs a whopping 11 ounces. I have the double action only version, but they make it in the traditional DA/SA. For those wondering, it is the same frame Smith uses for their Airweight .38s, which weigh 15-16 ounces. I can sell every one I can lay hands on.

One of the smallest 9mm on the market is the Kimber Solo. It is the same size as the Sig. P238 .380. It has all the edges rounded off and carries beautifully. It has become my go to carry gun. (I will quite frequently also carry the 351 on my ankle.) I was surprised at the recoil. I was expecting a lot more.

I recall being surprised when I saw Hornady was making performance ammo in .25 ACP. I did not think the market would warrant it. Seems I was wrong, again.

http://www.hornady.com/store/25-Auto

Since I checked Hornady, I looked at Speer. They also make a performance .25 uisng their Gold Dot bullet:

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23602

While I don't care for the .25 ACP, seems a lot of folks do. Like any other caliber, if you are going to carry it, carry the most potent you can find.

[RogueTS1]

The 950 Berettas are much smaller than the 21.

Bill; I would not say they are much smaller............... only a bit smaller. They are a tad thinner in the grip area but that is about it.

[bill_deshivs]

When you are talking about real pocket pistols, that's much smaller.

[RogueTS1]

Wow.................. that was a fast reply! I guess just a matter of opinion when it comes to the definition of "much." I just do not find there to be that much of a difference between these two when it comes to size.

[Uncle_Lee]

I don't know how I missed these little 25's...
They are Iver Johnson.
Same size as the Bauer and the Bernadelli.

[bill_deshivs]

The Iver Johnson actually is a Bernardelli. It is a direct copy. Some parts were probably imported.

[RogueTS1]

Now those Uncle Lee, fashioned after the Baby Browning, are about the smallest 6.35mm autos you can find. They are really small compared to most others. They are very reliable too.

[bill_deshivs]

The IJ/Bernardelli guns are actually improved copies of the Walther model 9 .25 auto.

[bouncey]

I saw a tiny Walther (I think it might've been mod 9) in the old guns room last week at Cabela's.  Almost microscopic!  Right next to a Japanese Nambu pistol, an old Colt 1911, and a bigger Walther of wartime design.  Almost like a little museum there...

[heyjoe]

I saw a tiny Walther (I think it might've been mod 9) in the old guns room last week at Cabela's.  Almost microscopic!  Right next to a Japanese Nambu pistol, an old Colt 1911, and a bigger Walther of wartime design.  Almost like a little museum there...

i got one of those

[RogueTS1]

Appears to to me, to be more a copy of a hybrid between the Walther 9 and the Baby Browning.

[Hero]

With the nail gun powder loads for scorpions- what impacts the critter?

Pictures would be great!

I agree with the comments about the Beretta 21a (Bobcat) being a great pocket 22LR.  I own one and love it.  Love the DA/SA trigger.  The key to reliable cycling is to load it 6+1 instead of 7+1.  It just works better.  The tip-up barrel is GREAT for shooting Aguila Colibris' (rounds that are too weak to cycle the slide - great fun in my garage at 7 yards).   

Don't buy a Taurus PT-22 (the knock-off of the Beretta 21a).  It has a horrible DAO trigger.  I own one, but I use it ONLY for the tip-up barrel to load nail gun powder loads to shoot Black Widow & Fiddleback spiders and Scorpions in the shop and around the house.  Not worth anything more than that.

I am one of the few fans of the Jennings J-22 and Jeminez JA-22.  I own both.  Load one less round in the magazine (5 instead of 6) and it will cycle just fine.  Make sure the top of the magazine measures between .195" and .200" and it will cycle well.  Never load it +1.  In fact, never carry it.  It is not a good option for carry.  Horrible slide safety.  But it is fun to shoot at the range.

The best pocket 22LR of all time - the NAA.  More than just a homer opinion.

[Hero]

Ruger LCR 22 could work well for you. Shoots great. Smooth trigger geometry.