Ok, Which One?

MtGoat · December-10-17 13:12

I am either going to give my daughter one of my Mini's or get her a new one.

I know like 75% of the people really like the Black Widow.
I don't currently have on but am leaning in that direction.
I just looked at one (it could have been an older one) and am concerned about how tall the sights are on it.

She would be using it for plinking and self defense.
I would like to get her the most accurate model I can find so are the adjustable sights needed or will the fixed sights be acceptable.

The other two models I have in mind are the Ranger II (one of mine until the 2" comes out) or a S&W 317.
If I can find a Pink old style BW grip I most likely will put it on either my Ranger II or my SW and give it to her for Christmas.
If not then it may turn into a birthday present in May.

Just need to get set on which BW I should consider and then look for an great price on it.
I am thinking conversion as that would be cheap for her to shoot often and get used to the gun.

Thoughts?

Pat

Rick_Jorgenson · December-10-17 14:12

My opinion (not shared by everyone) is the sights on a NAA any model are a non-issue until they interfere with carrying it.

I have the adjustable sights for the Black Widow & Mini Master.

My BW came with the older style low ones and for Holster Carry, far superior. They don't hang up on the leather, in a pocket holster they don't catch on your jeans pocket when drawing.

I don't carry these to shoot competitively so sight practice is useless, muscle memory and evaluating the threat is your advantage.

These guns truly are for self defense in close quarters. Are you really going to aim?

Shooting at targets 7 to 15 feet away, Shooting a lot, getting comfortable handling the gun. Relying on muscle memory over focusing on sights would be far better training than trying different sights and possibly developing bad habits relying on them.

If she is a new shooter she does not have enough time pulling the trigger to decide what works better. I'm new to shooting, changing sights doesn't make a bit of difference in target score. But, the more I shoot the more I get comfortable with the gun and consistent use, the better the target groups. I was focusing to much on sights and not on shooting.

When the poop hits the fan it will be up close, better to know when to draw and shoot immediately than draw, focus on your sights, pick where you want to hit the perp, possibly miss.

Feel confident, recognize the trouble, know when you should draw to shoot, Not draw to aim.

Just my opinion, do whats best for you and yours.

linux_author · December-10-17 14:12

i really, really like my sidewinder - it's the short barrel and i can do 3" groups at 12 feet, but i believe that in 2.5" it would be a bit more accurate , and even more accurate w/a 4" barrel... on the other hand, i also have a S&W 317, and it's quite accurate for this old man (i only shoot indoors at 25-35 feet)...

what i enjoy is plinking away w/'quiet' rounds and shorts - cheap fun!

when i get my hands on a ranger ii next year (fingers crossed), i hope there's a 2.5" version

willie
on the plinking away Gulf of Mexico

Bigbird48 · December-10-17 15:12

Well I'll add my 2 cents here Ricks correct in the respect that in a Self defense situation you won't aim you'll point and shoot. That being said I think fixed sights would be a better offer. One reason being is adjustable sight have a way of becoming loose and moving or falling off altogether, I had this happen on another gun and I've read were NAA's will sometimes loosen up. Also I find that the fixed sights on my BW are very accurate. So plinking on a target is fun also. Whats really fun is shooting a walking target with a BW very cool.

zburkett · December-10-17 15:12

IMHO you can't do better than the 1 5/8" convertible with the folding holster grip. Oomph for self defense, cheap enough to shoot LR to get good with. Inexpensive. Then if after using it for a while she would like something else get it. On mine I paint the front sight with blaze orange paint and buff the back of the cylinder to take off the sharp edge.

MtGoat · December-10-17 16:12

The Black Widow I looked at today must have been the adjustable sight model as the front sight was huge.
It is a deal breaker.
I an thinking looking for an older used fixed sight model or are the current and older fixed sight models about the same sized sights?

I also looked at the 317's.
I was about $150 low for pricing...wow.
I hadn't looked at them for awhile.

Pat

MtGoat · December-10-17 16:12

Is this the older style sights or the newer style?
https://www.gunsamerica.com/947487313/NAA-Black-Widow-Revolver-22-LR-22-Ma.htm
I can at least go look at it if it is what I should be looking for.

Pat

MtGoat · December-10-17 16:12

Look how tall the front sight is.

I am really not interested in something with THAT TALL of a front sight.

Pat

linux_author · December-10-17 16:12

Quote from: MtGoat on December-10-17 16:12
I also looked at the 317's.
I was about $150 low for pricing...wow.
I hadn't looked at them for awhile.

yep, pricey! but did you pick it up? quite light... i was looking for a plinker SA/DA revolver and my choices boiled down to:

S&W 63
Ruger SP101
Taurus Pathfinder (mag/22LR!)
Charter Target Pathfinder (4" bbl)

i liked the weight of the 317 (not everyone's cup of tea for a target .22)... to save some $$$ i might have gone with the Charter - the SP101 and S&W 63 were a draw... all except the Charter were about the same $$$ as the 317, and all were stainless, whereas the 317 is alloy, ergo the weight savings

but with NAA's revolvers, one could have a half-dozen plinkers in a tiny range bag, and that's really, really cool!

willie
on the plink away every day Gulf of Mexico

Warthog · December-10-17 17:12

Black Widows are best for SD IMO. I replaced the fluted cylinder 22 Mag BW with a CVang grips but the others remain the way they are shown. The front sight has never been a problem shooting it or carrying it, just get her a good Holster, like the one I use from Rick (seen below)

If she is going to carry in her purse, I am sure a holster can be made for that too. The Black Widow is my favorite carry NAA Mini by far.

MtGoat · December-10-17 17:12

Warty,
All of your front sights are 50% to 75% of the current adjustable model.
The fixed sighted model appears to be better (lower).

Pat

LHB · December-10-17 17:12

I don't think that the front sight on my BW is any taller than the sight on the standard mini. I suggest that you try to find an older BW with the fixed sights. I don't know if the sights on the newer revolvers are taller than the old ones or not. The contour of the front sight can always be adjusted with a little time and effort.

boone123 · December-10-17 18:12

I have a Smith 317, or did have. Wife now owns it. When I got it, it locked up when I shot it.Was shooting Federal Match Targets in it. Was going to send it in for repair, but tried some different ammo in it. Worked fine. Shoots regular Federals just fine. Had heard that some guns don't like target ammo.

Canoeal · December-10-17 21:12

Those pictures are of the adjustable sights. Just get the fixed sights; they are lower, shoot fine and don't work loose.

David Culp · December-11-17 00:12

I'd go with the Ranger two. Easy reload.

linux_author · December-11-17 08:12

Quote from: boone123 on December-10-17 18:12
I have a Smith 317, or did have. Wife now owns it. When I got it, it locked up when I shot it.Was shooting Federal Match Targets in it. Was going to send it in for repair, but tried some different ammo in it. Worked fine. Shoots regular Federals just fine. Had heard that some guns don't like target ammo.

i know this is off-topic, but some of the lockups can happen due to the cylinder extractor being loose, with the result that the cylinder is not properly tightened down, and of course, dirty .22 stuff under the extractor

i generally fire about 200 rounds of various .22 through my 317 each session at the range with no problems - but i do try to stick with CCI

willie
on the sunny but chilly Gulf of Mexico

Doc Holliday · December-11-17 09:12

Quote from: linux_author on December-10-17 16:12
Quote from: MtGoat on December-10-17 16:12
I also looked at the 317's.
I was about $150 low for pricing...wow.
I hadn't looked at them for awhile.

yep, pricey! but did you pick it up? quite light... i was looking for a plinker SA/DA revolver and my choices boiled down to:

S&W 63
Ruger SP101
Taurus Pathfinder (mag/22LR!)
Charter Target Pathfinder (4" bbl)

i liked the weight of the 317 (not everyone's cup of tea for a target .22)... to save some $$$ i might have gone with the Charter - the SP101 and S&W 63 were a draw... all except the Charter were about the same $$$ as the 317, and all were stainless, whereas the 317 is alloy, ergo the weight savings

but with NAA's revolvers, one could have a half-dozen plinkers in a tiny range bag, and that's really, really cool!

willie
on the plink away every day Gulf of Mexico

I looked at the Ruger SP 101 in 44 Special..which is my favorite big bore cartridge. It seemed in hand to be huge and heavy! I ended up getting a Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 Special. It is much lighter and easier to conceal and the rubber type grips are very comfortable. Yeah..I know the Ruger is more of a quality firearm...I own several. But in this case...the Ruger was just too huge. OK for the Range..but I would have never been comfortable carrying it concealed!
Just my 2 cents worth..probably worth about 3/4 of a cent! Anyway..I really prefer my easy to carry NAA Minis!
Doc Holliday

Canoeal · December-11-17 11:12

" She would be using it for plinking and self defense."

If you like the Charter Arms Pathfinder, they make a 22 mag light (12oz.) in 22 Mag, 2" and the SS in 2" and 4"... I like my SS in 4", but it is not a carry gun it is my house mouse; the 2" would be better for carry and if a 2", I would go for the light @ 12 oz. It is plenty in a 22 mag for control. If for carry, I would take a look at their Compact Carry grips; I rounded them over pretty easily and they are on the gun below. It shortens the grip, for easier carry. (Not a recommendation for that gun,it is not a carry size, but works well).
As to thoughts on a reload; she is not likely to carry one, or be able to load any of them under stress, so it won't be a factor. That said, there are H&K reloaders for the Charters, that I use at the range.
For me to carry, I go with the BW- because of it's size, and ease of carry. I have both the Charter 4" in the house and the BW for personal.

Kevin55 · December-11-17 12:12

How much does she shoot? Take her shooting, give her the one she likes to shoot most.

IMHO, single action hand cocking isn't a noobie defense gun. The 317 would make more sense. Ruger makes the LCR, which is a double action only self defense gun. Lots of praise for it.

AS for NAA, 22lr and 22mag were designed to shoot from a 16" or longer barrel. There is a table showing the ballistics. Also a site called "by the inch" where a barrel is cut down and the ballistics recorded. The short 1-1/8" barrel makes the 22mag and 22lr very close. The longer the barrel, the more the 22mag stands out. For 22mag, I would only get the 1-5/8" or longer. The 2" BW seems ideal.

I can't buy a 1-5/8" barrel mag or the Black Widow in Califorina. I'd have a BW with fixed sights, If I could. I bought a 22lr in 1-1/8" before it was banned due to the small size. Even f I bought a MiniMaster, the third option in CA, I'd get the fixed sights.

Canoeal · December-11-17 13:12

Gold Dots and Critical Defense are designed for a 2" barrel and both function well. Faster burning, low flash powders and good expanding and penetration. They make rifle rounds out of a .22 mag hand gun very old tech. BBTI info is years out of date, and when questioned, said it was too expensive to redo. There is only one round listed under .32 H&R mag, and they admitted their testing of short barrel 22/22 mags and 25s were sometimes based on the only round that read on their chrono..

Kevin55 · December-11-17 13:12

Use the Right tool for the job.
Use the right ammo for handguns.

Testing the 22mag handgun ammo with 1-1/8, 1-5/8, 2" and 4" barrels would be interesting.
I guess one 22lr and 22mag round previously tested would verify changes in testing conditions.

I would still go with the 1-5/8 or 2" barrel if it were an option in CA.

MtGoat · December-11-17 13:12

We shoot as much as we can but never enough.
If she had her pick she would grab my Colt 22 Mag

I am watching to some extent for a moderately priced 317.
I plan to look at a BW a local shop has to see if it has the taller sights.
I am also thinking that maybe I should wait until May and see if the 2" Ranger II's are out yet and if I can find an old style pink hard rubber grip.

She could carry her 386 Mt Lite but it is a bit large and she really doesn't like shooting it a lot.

Pat

Kevin55 · December-11-17 14:12

Old Colt revolvers are like family jewels.

If you go to a big gun store, I would check out the Ruger LCR. Some of the Semi. auto guys like them.

Canoeal · December-11-17 14:12

Quote from: Kevin55 on December-11-17 13:12
Use the Right tool for the job.
Use the right ammo for handguns.

Testing the 22mag handgun ammo with 1-1/8, 1-5/8, 2" and 4" barrels would be interesting.
I guess one 22lr and 22mag round previously tested would verify changes in testing conditions.

I would still go with the 1-5/8 or 2" barrel if it were an option in CA.

Don't skip the 2" barrel. You might find that it changes things, as the velocities of most rounds expand very quickly in the 1- 4" inch sector, and the difference between 1.5 and 2" is actually significant, especially in short barrel defense ammo.
The chart below from American Rifleman is already 3 years old, but it shows some pretty big changes, in several aspects of 22 mags, both rifle rounds and short barrel out different length barrels. The 1" used in testing was a Pug, the 1.8" a Ruger the 4.6" a Heritage RR.
(one round notably absent is the CCI HP+V 30 grain.)

Canoeal · December-11-17 17:12

"We shoot as much as we can but never enough.
If she had her pick she would grab my Colt 22 Mag ."

If it is for home and not carry, then the 4" Charter Arms works fine for me. It is an accurate gun.
I polished the chambers a little on mine to make it eject easier, and put on Carry Grips, but not any problems after that. For comparison here is an older pic of my two, in it the BW has the adjustable sights and the Charter has the stock grip.

Warthog · December-11-17 17:12

Pat, I have a Charter Arms 327FM I would sell. It is a very good SD caliber and would make it easier on her to shoot.

Otherwise I still say that the Black Widow with fixed sights is the best idea for her to use. Easy to shoot and the 22 Mag is a decent SD caliber though I am no expert on such things. Easy to fit into a pocket or purse and with a holster will always be where it should be in case of emergency.

grayelky · December-11-17 20:12

A lot of very good suggestions. First thing I suggest is to determine what caliber she is most comfy with. If she can handle a 9 mm, find the smallest, lightest you/she can afford. If it is a .32, etc, same advise. If she is not comfy with anything bigger than a 22, or needs to conceal, then the NAA will likely be the way to go, AFTER a lot of practice. This she can do with one of yours. If you determine the NAA is the most appropriate, and can not locate a BW with the old style sight locally, contact me. I have one in the shop.

For my suggestion: S&W model 351 .22 mag. It is available with an exposed hammer and "hammerless", holds 7 rounds and only weighs 11 ounces. It's draw back is list price of $685.00 or so. Canoeal pointed out Charter Arms has a 2", 12 ounce 22 mag. It is no doubt tons cheaper than the S&W. I have noticed a lot of improvement in their quality control over 4 years ago, and I can now recommend them once again. The other 22 mag I would have suggested would have been the Ruger LCR, but I suspect you have the skills to bob the hammer on the CA, which would make it more pocket/purse/backpack friendly, which, again would move it to the top of the list. I am basing this on your "self defense" criteria. IF she is not going to carry it, very little of the above apply. Go with the 4" 22 mag, or a decent sized semi auto she feels comfortable with.

Canoeal · December-11-17 20:12

" Easy to fit into a pocket or purse and with a holster will always be where it should be in case of emergency."
In a purse is not something I recommend. Here in PA if it is 'in her purse' and she sets it down and takes a step away, it is considered no longer in her possession, and has a lot of legal ramifications. Needs to be carried on her person, which is why I said the BW for carry. The temptation to put a larger gun in her purse would be a mistake.
A second scenario is a purse snatch. If someone could take her purse he would also have her gun...just a bad idea.

Warthog · December-11-17 21:12

Well, I was only making a suggestion. I can't know the laws for every state in the Union. Sorry.

Canoeal · December-12-17 14:12

Not really jumping on you Warty. Just I have heard that here more than a couple of times, and a friend of mine is a local county detective. I have heard her say that too many times.

WECSOG · December-13-17 10:12

IMO, the best NAA for carry and plinking is the Black Widow with fixed sights. The standard Magnum is fine for defensive carry, but the sights on the BW make it much more usable for other purposes.

Canoeal · December-20-17 17:12

The other thought the 22 mag pathfinder is made in a 12 oz version; the lite. A pathfinder lite in 22 LR or 22 mag, 2" barrel might work if you change to the shorter grips like in the first pic of my 4' version. I rounded over the grips on mine. They even come in colors, but you might need to order a lite in a non-colored version; they do offer it.
https://charterfirearms.com/collections/pathfinder

That said I prefer the BW for carry myself...

Boisesteve · December-20-17 18:12

Holy heck, this is an experienced group, everything said so far makes good sense.
I carry one of two North Americans, the 1 5/8" 22mag with Black widow grips added,
or a 4" Earl also with oversize rubber grips, but like was said, a beginner needs some
practice before carrying a single action for defense. I also really like the short barrel
Ruger LCRX in .38: great DA trigger, and the option of single action if the shooter wants it.
Be well all, Steve in Boise

boone123 · December-20-17 21:12

I have a Black Widow with fixed sights. Recrowned the barrel, and cut the front sight down so it's right on at about 25 yards, and some past, That's with 22LR ammo, two handed out the truck window. In the past I have shot dirt clods much farther out than that.
Some people loose interest in shooting if they have trouble hitting their target. I started my granddaughter at 13 with a Bearcat with adjustable sights, and a old Colt Woodsman. She fell in love with the Woodsman because she could hit the target. Will be hers someday, if I don't wear it out first.