Ranger 2 problems

[bill_deshivs]

I hope I'm wrong- but I believe we are going to find out the Ranger 2 model should never have been designed for .22 WMR. The lockwork is too fragile, the hinge weak, and the frame is too thin to hold up to shooting WMR.

The gun should have been designed in .22 LR only-possibly .22 short only.

The problem with top break revolvers is that the frame stretches-and there isn't much frame to stretch on these.
As I said, I hope I'm proven wrong.

[Dinadan]

You could have a point. Certainly the initial reports are mixed. Some folks report that everything works as it should, so that would seem to indicate that it is doable, just not easy. Since I do not like the WMR anyway, I would be perfectly happy with a LR only version. I can envision a scenario where NAA stops producing Mag cylinders for the Ranger, the way Ruger stopped making Mag cylinders for the Bearcat. The situations are not exactly parallel since the Bearcat was never intended to be a self defense gun and I guess that the Ranger is supposed to be. Some folks believe in the superiority of the WMR over LR like vampire hunters believe in silver bullets, so changing the Ranger to LR only would definitely hurt sales to those folks.

[45flint]

I would have thought that the Ranger 2 design would have been stronger?  I don't remember the original Ranger having this kind of feedback but they quickly became safe queens.  I shot my early bird a number of times but doubt I put 50 rounds through it.  To me I think the machining tolerances may be very tight and they brought much of it in-house recently.  Learning curve? 

[Ruger]

I am frequently involved in commissioning of multi-million dollar processing facilities.  By the nature of this type of work, every one is a custom system designed specifically for that customer.  There are ALWAYS start-up and commissioning aches and pains, but a great company works thru them and the final result is a system that indeed meets specifications and expectations.  Maybe it is because for 40 years I have managed to make a living in this type environment, but I am having no issues with the needs for a couple of returns of a new product, as long as the company continues to address and resolve the root failure issues and doesn't walk away from the problems.  I see NAA as one of these companies.  They will do it right.

[boone123]

Ranger11  owners ==Test department ....

[autofull]

good observation bill. i have looked at the latch system and think the old style was the way to go. i know there are a ton of old iver johnson and other breaktops in use yet and in 32 short but those pistols are way stronger even though they are small and though the materials are inferior to what we have today they have stood the test of time.

[redhawk4]

It certainly isn't a naturally strong design, but surely NAA tested it in Magnum to ensure it could handle the forces involved. It seems like the frame was made for the cylinder catch to latch into the frame by the hammer, because there is a step there, but its cut away at the side so it doesn't. The bottom strap of the gun is not very strong when you see how much is removed to fit the side plate on the RHS. It seems there's not alot of metal in the area around the trigger and cylinder lock. However metal is incredibly strong and I often marvel at how little metal there is in the pin that goes through the hitch on my pickup truck that has an advertised towing weight of 17,000 + lbs. I hope it was thoroughly tested and the design thought out accordingly, but at a glance, it doesn't look the stoutest. Personally I would have curved the upper surface of the frame to follow the cylinder more closely, thereby gaining additional thickness and resistance to bending or twisting in that area. There's quite a gap under the cylinder that is not needed and with the edges following the radius at the sides, it could be much stiffer. However without taking the Ranger apart to look further it still seems the weakest portion of the frame is around the trigger and side plate area, where from the outside there appears to be very little material.

With regard to the original Ranger, much is the same, but the catch does provide support at the top of the frame which would make a big difference to overall strength. That being said I'm one of the few people who've fired the original BT, but I didn't fire more than 10 rounds through mine and I know the vast majority have never been fired so I don't know that any have had  40, 50 or 100 rounds through them to see how they would fare with a sample of 20 or so guns to get a true comparison.

[RogueTS1]

You could have a point. Certainly the initial reports are mixed. Some folks report that everything works as it should, so that would seem to indicate that it is doable, just not easy. Since I do not like the WMR anyway, I would be perfectly happy with a LR only version. I can envision a scenario where NAA stops producing Mag cylinders for the Ranger, the way Ruger stopped making Mag cylinders for the Bearcat. The situations are not exactly parallel since the Bearcat was never intended to be a self defense gun and I guess that the Ranger is supposed to be. Some folks believe in the superiority of the WMR over LR like vampire hunters believe in silver bullets, so changing the Ranger to LR only would definitely hurt sales to those folks.

Silver bullets do work on Vampires ................ I have used them and they are quite successful. 

[redhawk4]

Aren't silver bullets for Werewolves?

[Ruger]

I  think it takes a wooden stake thru the heart for Vampires, doesn't it?  Garlic keeps Vampires and women at bay . . .

[smokeless joe]

Aren't silver bullets for Werewolves?

In my experience yes 😎

A wooden stake for vampires.

[Gobbletn]

Ranger11  owners ==Test department ....

"Test department", possibly... however some were released that were not EBs... was their quality control different than those that purchased the EBs? Being in the "Test" group, the nearly $600 outlay for the Ranger ll seems to have been a punch in the gut.

For me, It's becoming harder and harder to support the program when the quality that has come out is not 100%. I totally understand mechanism growing pains HOWEVER, after seeing the problems, the chatter marks, burrs, cylinder ring marks etc is making this decision to be a Ranger ll EB "Test" client regrettable.

[smokeless joe]

For me, It's becoming harder and harder to support the program when the quality that has come out is not 100%. I totally understand mechanism growing pains HOWEVER, after seeing the problems, the chatter marks, burrs, cylinder ring marks etc is making this decision to be a Ranger ll EB "Test" client regrettable.

We all have our own level of tolerance. I am still well within my limits. The end result for me will be well worth the adjustments along the way.

[Bigbird48]

Personally I never thought of the EB program as a Test program or us as beta testers for a new gun.
I though we were being offered an EB because we were faithful customers and getting an EB serial number was kinda special reward for being good Customers. I thought the guns that we paid a high price for would be thoroughly tested and any problems would have been worked out and fixed before they were released to us. We paid MSRP  for these. As we all know dealers get a better price and can offer less then MSRP on guns. So Its really a little discouraging that we got less then what we paid for. I'm still confident that NAA will get the problems fixed. Like I said in another thread maybe they will offer us a LR cylinder for all our troubles.

[Bigbird48]

I agree Joe I'm still with in my level also just venting a little. I know that they will get these working right.

For me, It's becoming harder and harder to support the program when the quality that has come out is not 100%. I totally understand mechanism growing pains HOWEVER, after seeing the problems, the chatter marks, burrs, cylinder ring marks etc is making this decision to be a Ranger ll EB "Test" client regrettable.

We all have our own level of tolerance. I am still well within my limits. The end result for me will be well worth the adjustments along the way.

[Dinadan]

Aren't silver bullets for Werewolves?

Oops! Should have done my homework!

Anyway, I do not believe anyone thinks the worse of Ruger because they decided that the Bearcat was not a good platform for the WMR and went to LR only for it. If NAA had to do the same with the RAnger II then folks who are determined to have WMR can choose one of NAAs other offerings.

[cbl51]

Ranger11  owners ==Test department ....

"Test department", possibly... however some were released that were not EBs... was their quality control different than those that purchased the EBs? Being in the "Test" group, the nearly $600 outlay for the Ranger ll seems to have been a punch in the gut.

For me, It's becoming harder and harder to support the program when the quality that has come out is not 100%. I totally understand mechanism growing pains HOWEVER, after seeing the problems, the chatter marks, burrs, cylinder ring marks etc is making this decision to be a Ranger ll EB "Test" client regrettable.

This is what is partly bugging me. I spent almost 30 years in the machine trade, and as a machinist I now that you can run a lathe or mill with no chatty makes and burrs. There is no excuse for bad machining in this day and age. It's just sloppy operation on the machinists part and a failure on the QA inspectors part.

This is the 21st century with very good CNC machining centers and predictable materials, not the dawn of the industrial revolution. NAA has done better in the past and can do better now. There is absolutely no excuse for there not having been a small pre-production run for extensive range testing. Bugs are to be worked out BEFORE they get shipped to paying customers.

I'm holding off any new NAA purchasing for a bit to see what happens.

[Gobbletn]

Personally I never thought of the EB program as a Test program or us as beta testers for a new gun.
I though we were being offered an EB because we were faithful customers and getting an EB serial number was kinda special reward for being good Customers. I thought the guns that we paid a high price for would be thoroughly tested and any problems would have been worked out and fixed before they were released to us. We paid MSRP  for these. As we all know dealers get a better price and can offer less then MSRP on guns. So Its really a little discouraging that we got less then what we paid for. I'm still confident that NAA will get the problems fixed. Like I said in another thread maybe they will offer us a LR cylinder for all our troubles.

Big bird..... I have always liked reading your post. I TOTALLY agree with you again... I am venting as well. I returned my Ranger ll and it was the conversion model. I did not even touch my LR cylinder and wonder if it has the same chatter marks as the one picture that is posted... when I get it back we will see how QC is!!! The more I think and read the more frustrated I get. I trust NAA will make it right but you are right, We should not be the Test group... ARGGGGGGGGGG.  I won't even get the LR cylinder IF they make a free one for those that were returned... I paid for mine already... lesson learned.

[gofishr]

I was always in the impression that the early bird models that we get .We  giving our opinions what is going wrong with them or any problems  we give feedback before they have it turn to the production. Everybody wants the early bird and there's only a few of them but yet when they are not perfect or have problems people  complains. The early bird models are a little more desirable and worth a little more. The ones that get their early bird models have the perk but we are testers and if there's anything wrong with them North American Arms will make it right that's the reason why we get the early bird

[heyjoe]

I was always in the impression that the early bird models that we get .We  giving our opinions what is going wrong with them or any problems  we give feedback before they have it turn to the production. Everybody wants the early bird and there's only a few of them but yet when they are not perfect or have problems people  complains.

where did you get that impression. thats not true. they are bought expecting them to work. no one expects problems. issues come up but no one expects it.

[gofishr]

I believe that is correct yes the early birds we are testers we do notified North American Arms with any problems that's what Sandy has said before and who I spoke with Jessica

[heyjoe]

I believe that is correct yes the early birds we are testers we do notified North American Arms with any problems that's what Sandy has said before and who I spoke with Jessica

you might have paid full price to be a tester but i dont think too many others did and certainly not me

[Ruger]

Relax boys . . . .

[Bigbird48]

Sorry but this is not correct. If you go back and read Sandy's Jan Soap Box We the forum members would get EB serial numbers at the same time they were shipping regular production models to dealers these had a regular serial number BTIIxxxx So do you think those that didn't get an EB are testers also ?

I was always in the impression that the early bird models that we get .We  giving our opinions what is going wrong with them or any problems  we give feedback before they have it turn to the production. Everybody wants the early bird and there's only a few of them but yet when they are not perfect or have problems people  complains. The early bird models are a little more desirable and worth a little more. The ones that get their early bird models have the perk but we are testers and if there's anything wrong with them North American Arms will make it right that's the reason why we get the early bird

[RogueTS1]

Aren't silver bullets for Werewolves?

Just a chance to get away from the Ranger II dilemmas. It all depends on what superstition/culture one draws their stories from. In most the stake through the heart of a vampire was to simply hold him powerless, not kill him. Then the removal of his head killed him and released his soul.

In many cultures silver is thought to have magical/heavenly powers and hence magical/heavenly powered items are considered the only thing that can damage an undead creature and could be used to hurt a vampire.

[Ruger]

Best I got is that if someone offers to buy your wart, take the penny and the wart will go away.  That's all I got from my end of the street . . .

[bill_deshivs]

I have no doubt that NAA can fix the problems.
My concern is that they won't STAY fixed.
Frame stretching is a known problem with top break guns, and I have already expressed my feelings about the long, thin, unsupported frame.

[Muskox]

I hope I'm wrong- but I believe we are going to find out the Ranger 2 model should never have been designed for .22 WMR. The lockwork is too fragile, the hinge weak, and the frame is too thin to hold up to shooting WMR.

The gun should have been designed in .22 LR only-possibly .22 short only.

The problem with top break revolvers is that the frame stretches-and there isn't much frame to stretch on these.
As I said, I hope I'm proven wrong.

Just did a little research on the topic of whether the Ranger II would handle 22 LR's better than 22 mags? I went to SAAMI to find the PSI standard given for the two cartridges: Results given were surprising.....both cartridges have the Exact PSI of 24,000 PSI.......

[bill_deshivs]

Had the gun been designed for .22 lr, the frame would have been shorter-hence stiffer.

[Dinadan]

Just did a little research on the topic of whether the Ranger II would handle 22 LR's better than 22 mags? I went to SAAMI to find the PSI standard given for the two cartridges: Results given were surprising.....both cartridges have the Exact PSI of 24,000 PSI.......

I am not familiar with the PSI numbers ... but I have shot some LR and then some WMR out of the same Mini. There is a heck of a lot more jolt, shock, kinetic energy, whatever you want to call it with WMR than with LR. It is kind of surprising just how a jolt can make a locking mechanism pop open: I have opened padlocks  like that - a two pound hammer might not do the trick, but a four pound hammer makes it pop open looking none the worse for wear.

[redhawk4]

Whatever the psi, I agree there's a lot more recoil and force on the gun with magnum. Given the short barrel which really doesn't allow all the extra powder to be of much use, it's surprising how much more MV the magnum attains. If you fire the two side by side in a Ranger, the 22 LR feels like nothing after shooting a few cylinders of 22 mag, so the gun definitely takes more of a beating, but whether that's an issue is another matter which comes down to it's design. As said before, there isn't a lot of metal in key areas on the Ranger, but that doesn't mean it can't handle 22 mag.

[Tfm]

Maybe you could run a wee horizontal pin through the hammer, so said pin would rest on the latch, when the latch is closed and the hammer down.

There was a percussion rifle that was converted to breech loading... It may have been a flintlock converted to percussion, with a breech loading facility.

Possibly based on the Brown Bess, tried to find a link to it "Post it when I find it" but essentially... And this is the point!:

The hammer locked the breech when it fell, otherwise it wasn't locked. (Clever, the cap striker bit, also fell into a lug attached to the, breech open piece) So if the hammer fell, it locked the otherwise unlocked breech open bit/plug etc- Which only needed to be locked, when the hammer fell I.e. For firing.

So that was my inspiration, basically a pin through the hammer could rest against the locking latch when it fell and add, added impetus to the locking mechanism latch that opens in order to break the barrel.

If the latch is a weak point, mind... Just reading the comments.

[glenn]

How many of the "Forum" Ranger II's have "Successfully" fired a couple hundred rounds without going back to the factory ?
How many of the "Non Forum" Ranger II's have "Successfully" fired a couple hundred rounds without going back to the factory ?
How many Ranger II's are out there now ?
Is the factory still releasing the Ranger II's ... now that they are seeing all these problems ?

Yes they will "Fix" them ... but how many times can you afford to fix them .. or for how long ?

Would you keep "fixing" them & bankrupt your company .. or finally just offer a full "Buy-back" ?

I'm glad I never liked the look of the "Dumptruck Latch" & refrained from getting tangled up in this.

My prediction for Ranger II owners ..... hang on to em boys .... they're gonna increase in value just like the R-1's did ... & for basically the same reason.

my $0.02

.

[rogertc1]

glenn could have something there.. "My prediction for Ranger II owners ..... hang on to em boys .... they're gonna increase in value just like the R-1's did ... & for basically the same reason."

[Tfm]

How are the R-51's getting along? Mk2 "second generation" (I'm English, so unfortunately I don't know for myself) Rather.