Have we lost the skill?

[Canoeal]

I was thinking. When Guns were carried in the "old West" or wherever in days past or even during war times, it was not likely that the owner was sending a gun back to the factory to be repaired. Many small repairs, regrips, new sights, adjustments and polishing would have been done by the owner. Have we lost the skills, or just some basic instruction, to do what was once thought basic? Thoughts...

[MR_22]

Yes, we have. We take our cars to garages, our pets to vets, our Walmart toys back to be replaced, and yes, we send our guns back to the factory.

My Dad's generation did everything for themselves. If it didn't work, you either fixed it or modified it or combined multiples together to frankenstein something that worked--or you just built something new. My dad taught me a few things over the years as I was growing up, and I've gotten a little bit of that from him, but I'm embarrassed to say that I'm not as good as my father in fixing and building things. I wish I had asked him to teach me basic things like welding and acetylene torch cutting.

My dad was born in the 1930's and just might be the last generation to be like that. Historically, people did their own things, made their own things, and figured things out for themselves. We just buy our stuff now and throw it away when it stops working. Much knowledge has been lost. It's sad.

[cbl51]

I think a couple of things are going on here.

One, I don't think many of those old Colts, winchesters, and Smith and Wesson needed repair out of the box. And the same goes for the old Remington and Sharps derringers. I think things were better made back then because they didn't have CNC technology, so everything was hand fitted at the final step. That meant that no gun/whatever left the factory without being hand fitted and checked out by a master gunsmith.

Then, every little town had a gunsmith shop. It was like a watch makers shop with all he needed too make whatever part he needed. I think that there was not the huge amount of different guns like now, with most people using pretty standard stuff. And the further west you went out in the frontier, the more standard the stuff in the general store was.

I think we're living in a golden age of firearms, that no gun guy in the 1870's could have imagined in any peyote or whiskey inspired dream.

As for the 'other' modern stuff, I think it's by design that you can't work on the stuff. You need a 50K dollar computer to figure out which black box under the hood you have to replace. The toaster goes bad? The stuff is sooo cheap now, it's all of 11.99 for a newline. The old one has some little cheap part made in China burn out and there's no way to get a replacement part. Corporate greed has made the stuff so you have to go buy a new one.

[boone123]

I think back in the day, if a handgun broke it was probably a spring. Long guns, firing pins and other things. A lot of long guns and some handguns were fixed with a good cleaning. Many of today's guns are beyond the farmers fix.

[heyjoe]

i think CBl51 and Boone hit the nail on the head!

I think a couple of things are going on here.

One, I don't think many of those old Colts, winchesters, and Smith and Wesson needed repair out of the box. And the same goes for the old Remington and Sharps derringers. I think things were better made back then because they didn't have CNC technology, so everything was hand fitted at the final step. That meant that no gun/whatever left the factory without being hand fitted and checked out by a master gunsmith.

Then, every little town had a gunsmith shop. It was like a watch makers shop with all he needed too make whatever part he needed. I think that there was not the huge amount of different guns like now, with most people using pretty standard stuff. And the further west you went out in the frontier, the more standard the stuff in the general store was.

I think we're living in a golden age of firearms, that no gun guy in the 1870's could have imagined in any peyote or whiskey inspired dream.

As for the 'other' modern stuff, I think it's by design that you can't work on the stuff. You need a 50K dollar computer to figure out which black box under the hood you have to replace. The toaster goes bad? The stuff is sooo cheap now, it's all of 11.99 for a newline. The old one has some little cheap part made in China burn out and there's no way to get a replacement part. Corporate greed has made the stuff so you have to go buy a new one.

[adp3]

Most gun designs were much simpler in those days so they were easier to repair, and ammo was much lower in pressure.  Additionally, people couldn't afford to shoot huge quantities of ammo, and competition often used only a box or two of ammo so there was less wear on firearms. 

Best Regards,
ADP3

[JRobyn]

I've done a fair amount of machining burr removal and sharp corner melting on both of mine with a set of little jeweler's files.  And often do on newly-acquired arms.  Makes them much smoother operating and more satisfying to fondle.  Does that count as "the skill"?

[redhawk4]

Well there are couple of things here. Yes the average person has little in the way of "fixing" skills or knowledge in today's world where things are both disposable and plentiful, but secondly we expect things to be fixed and with guns we have a warranty, so why should we do it? In my case if it wasn't a free fix, then you can bet I'd be fixing it myself.

However, as one who can fix just about anything, I actually made a conscious effort to stop doing that in some cases, it was so drummed into me in my family that it became like some sort of "OCD challenge" which I finally realised was causing me a certain amount of stress, because I had to fix it or feel like a failure. I'm still usually fixing or tinkering with something, but have reached a point where I can let go and think it's not worth the trouble, when a new one costs $30, a $100.

If you look at mankind and history we have become far less resourceful as machinery and technology has increased. Sometimes it seems that people think people from hundreds of years ago were stupid. They may have not had the access to knowledge that we now have, but if you looked at what they built and so forth they were certainly no less clever than we are. As time goes on ideas get refined and better, however if the average person in the US was put in a time machine and sent back to 1400 or 1600 they'd actually look pretty stupid.

[bill_deshivs]

Today, most people don't know which way to turn a screw to tighten it.
Public schools used to have shop classes that taught basic electricity, woodworking, metalworking, and automotive repair.
The "enlightened" liberals took those classes away.
Since I repair knives and make gun parts for a living, I make a lot of money from people who can't fix things.

[Bigbird48]

I have an old lever action 30/30 back in the 70's the ejector broke on it. Someone told me about this old gunsmith lived up in the mountains, literally 8 miles up a dirt road this guy had a shack on the edge of the road. He took my gun took it apart and forged an new ejector for it and thats whats still working today. I could back then fix most stuff in my car, my bike and my house but with all the high tech junk today noway and besides  I'm pushing 70 and just don't feel like fixing stuff anymore , so I use warranty's get a new one if it breaks or just go without 

[LHB]

Back in the early 70s, I was in a photo shop, where the owner was complaining that his high school senior son could paint you the prettiest picture, and describe it to you in French, but don't ask him to drive a nail in the wall to hang the picture on.  Another customer in the shop replied that the son should never have to know how to drive a nail, that was beneath his position.

I also read years ago that many of the problems of disrespect of youth toward their parents really started to develop when we reached the stage that dad could no longer "fix" "minor problems", but had to call a repairman.  That was aggravated by the planned obsolescence/non reparability of appliances and gadgets.

[theysayimnotme]

Of course things are not made to be repairable anymore. How would you go about fixing a TV or a radio? The Yamaha Virago I had you had to remove the seat & then the gas tank to begin to get to the air filter. Almost everything we now have is like that. Much easier & cheaper to throw away & replace. Besides I'm too old to try to work on my car or motorcycles anymore even if I knew how. At least my son keeps my wife's & my computers going.

[Uncle_Lee]

Sad, the way society has "progressed".

[zburkett]

Just to be contrarian, I remember reading that it was not uncommon for a gentleman to take their Derringer to the gunsmith to be reloaded.

[To Old To Run]

I still like to tinker and fix what I can, but a lot of the new stuff is way over my head.
I'm like others here, not so young anymore.

[ds10speed]

Of course things are not made to be repairable anymore. How would you go about fixing a TV or a radio? The Yamaha Virago I had you had to remove the seat & then the gas tank to begin to get to the air filter. Almost everything we now have is like that. Much easier & cheaper to throw away & replace. Besides I'm too old to try to work on my car or motorcycles anymore even if I knew how. At least my son keeps my wife's & my computers going.

This reminds me when I had to loosen the inner fender, front grill and headlamp assembly on my 2008 Chevy Avalanche just to change a light bulb. The dealer can charge about $700 to change a bulb!!!!!

[swolf]

When I need gun repairs, I go to my local auto shop guy.  He has the metal skills and tools to weld a tip, temper a spring, tap a hole, etc.  I think it was the same in the olden days; your local blacksmith or tack guy could do most of what needed to be done.  More serious repairs went to the big city gun guy, and you used your backup for a couple months until it came back.  Records show Wild Bill Hickock often had one gun or another away for a trigger job, cylinder alignment, etc.  Having built a couple black powder guns, I have a basic knowledge of how things are supposed to work and most issues are resolved with a little common sense.  Modern semi autos certainly complicate the issues, so I favor revolvers.

[top dog]

I am pretty much on the fence on this one.  Now a days,it is pretty much difficult ,if not impossible to work on today's vehicles with all their computer stuff and such. Oil changes and stuff like that sure but once you get into the inner workings of today's vehicles,things are pretty well impossible unless you want to invest big bucks into computers for the vehicles and training.

Years ago,the gun companies really did not have the customer service and warranties like today so you pretty much had to fix the problem yourself. A serious problem with the gun now is just a simple ship to the factory and in pretty much a short time the gun is back with you fixed at no charge.

In a way,I don't think we have lost the skills as I pretty much do a lot of repair work on many things as I am sure most folks in this forum do.

                                                                                                           Top Dog

[kc]

I think a couple of things are going on here.

One, I don't think many of those old Colts, winchesters, and Smith and Wesson needed repair out of the box. And the same goes for the old Remington and Sharps derringers. I think things were better made back then because they didn't have CNC technology, so everything was hand fitted at the final step. That meant that no gun/whatever left the factory without being hand fitted and checked out by a master gunsmith.

Then, every little town had a gunsmith shop. It was like a watch makers shop with all he needed too make whatever part he needed. I think that there was not the huge amount of different guns like now, with most people using pretty standard stuff. And the further west you went out in the frontier, the more standard the stuff in the general store was.

I think we're living in a golden age of firearms, that no gun guy in the 1870's could have imagined in any peyote or whiskey inspired dream.

As for the 'other' modern stuff, I think it's by design that you can't work on the stuff. You need a 50K dollar computer to figure out which black box under the hood you have to replace. The toaster goes bad? The stuff is sooo cheap now, it's all of 11.99 for a newline. The old one has some little cheap part made in China burn out and there's no way to get a replacement part. Corporate greed has made the stuff so you have to go buy a new one.

Accurate observations.
Plus perhaps some other things in play:

Firearms were generally considered tools, not accessories, and ownership was more to meet an actual need. Function (with little regard for aesthetics) was the primary objective and reliable, durable function requires a high-quality tool. The relative simplicity of the designs (compared to many modern designs) made it easier to learn to repair them, as well as creating a need for the local gunsmith, as the cost of the infrequent repair was much less than the cost of buying a new one. Plus, as mentioned above, that was not a throw-away culture.

I think many of us appreciate older guns because of the quality of the "fit & finish"... the obvious hand-labor and skill that went into each gun (in marked contrast to much of what is produced today), which created a thing of beauty.

Not that most of today's firearms don't work well, they do, but like many other mass-produced products, the industry has developed the market to buy guns for reasons other than to meet an actual need. As has been expressed by others here, we too often encounter big egos & silly, image-based perceptions at gun shops and gun shows.... but lotsa guns are still being sold. 

There also weren't a lot of aftermarket accessories (grips, etc.) available back then. Many shooters of that era became seriously proficient without the aid of custom sights, grips or action jobs. They practiced much & physically "adapted" to the weapon instead of spending time & money to adapt the weapon to them.... they simply used the guns more than we do, because they needed to.

Not that accessories, industry-driven ($) marketing and many more gun-owners than really proficient shooters are necessarily bad things; accessories can help us use the weapon more effectively (& improve aesthetics) and modern marketing combined with increased ownership strengthens the industry and grows the pro-gun citizenry. We just have to hunt harder to find modern firearms that meet the quality standards of that bygone era.

[boone123]

Wife just mentioned the other day how when I came home with a different gun, like from a gun show, it was in the back door and down to my work shop. They were made into a gun I liked.  Not so much any more. Still can, but the spark is gone. You would be amazed how much a mini can be shot with a good trigger pull  and a re-
crowned barrel.
Life is good, but a good trigger pull on a handgun, makes it better...

[LHB]

It may not all be losing the skills.   Daughter's first car was a used Ford Escort, with the sideways engine.  I could never figure out how to change the oil in it with out getting burned, and the oil filter was on the back of the block, over the exhaust, and I could never get it off with out spilling oil on the pipe, to burn off and smell. 

Took it into the dealer to have it serviced, and asked the mechanic what the secret was to keep from getting burned, and he said "have some one else change the oil, I don't change the oil in my escort."  Then he asked if I had ever seen the engine in a Chrysler K car, and I said that I had one, and he asked where the filter was on it, and I said on the front of the block, and he replied that you could reach the filter from the top, or from below, and that feature had been designed by a man who changed his own oil.

[LHB]

Have some friends who work at Cat, some are engineers, and they laugh about the questions they are asked by Indian engineers, who have never held a wrench, or got grease under their nails, and have no concept of how to service an engine.  One man who worked in the marine engine section, lost it one day when the designer couldn't understand why it mattered how deep the oil pan was on a new engine, it worked fine on the test stand, so what was wrong if the drains plug was below the water line in the bilge.

[RogueTS1]

Just to be contrarian, I remember reading that it was not uncommon for a gentleman to take their Derringer to the gunsmith to be reloaded.

Close but no cigar...................... he would have one of his Footman reload as well as clean it. 

[RogueTS1]

Where does one get basic training on fixing any revolver though? Or a long gun, like a lever action? Not the AR component stuff, not my interest...

On the internet .................... lever actions are pretty straight forward to work on.

[OV-1D]

 The only way to lose a skill is by not trying to develop one to begin with . It's amazing just what we are capable of by trying and continuing until we get it right with failure being not an option . Unc lets have that yoga emoji please . HHUUUMMMMMMMM .

[rogertc1]

There are still people young and old who can fix cars, home repairs and work on guns. Not lost. Actually easier now with the internet  to tell you exactly what to do as opposed to the old trial and error method. JMO

[OV-1D]

  Ahhhhh Grasshoppers but trial and error method expands the mind to improve any given situation leading to advancement in better and better ways . HUUMMMMMMM !

[redhawk4]

"Necessity is the Mother of invention" it goes for repairing things to. While I have a talent for diagnosing problems and repairing them, after numerous people had asked me, how I knew how to do this or who taught me I realised that I had developed my skills out of necessity. When I was 17 and the cam chain snapped on my Honda motorcycle I was left with two choices, fix it or repair it. Pretty soon I was fixing other people's motorcycles and rebuilding their engines. Perhaps if I'd had a life of riches and leisure I wouldn't have bothered, but my Mother always observed as a child, that I always took things apart the second I was given them, I always had this urge to see how they worked, even when they weren't broken.

[To Old To Run]

Youtube has been a big help for me and fixing things. If I can see someone doing it, I can most of the time figure it out and give it a try.
I still get satisfaction out of fixing things that are broke or making them work better.
Like I said, this aging process put some limits on my repair projects.

[OV-1D]

  Having to wear eyeglasses has slowed me down for sure . Funny how we don't notice somethings till there gone , its bad enough losing mobility but our eyes are the window to everything , especially real small crap , ha .

[ikoiko]

It's also funny how you don't realize you have some things till you do. Like your back, your knees, your shoulders.  . . When they let you know they're there.

[JRobyn]

I am relying on these things more and more, especially when the workpiece gets tiny like a NAA Mini!  I keep a set of 3x, 5x, and 7x handy.

[redhawk4]

It's also funny how you don't realize you have some things till you do. Like your back, your knees, your shoulders.  . . When they let you know they're there.

I'm not too decrepit yet thankfully, but I've really noticed how I've slowed down and working on a motorcycle or other vehicle is not on the cards. Not so long ago, I could sit down for a couple of minutes, have a snack and I was ready to go at it again, now when I sit down for a few minutes I find myself thinking of excuses to finish it tomorrow. I've found the fact that projects become more challenging physically, has put me off wanting to attempt the big stuff I used to do and some projects like hanging upside down in my boat engine compartment changing an impeller or removing the drain plugs seems quite a painful chore.

[RogueTS1]

What is that JRobyn? Some kind of belt? 

[Bigbird48]

 My 97 Yamaha Royal star was the same way but now I have an 05 Royal Star and its easier to get the air filter

Of course things are not made to be repairable anymore. How would you go about fixing a TV or a radio? The Yamaha Virago I had you had to remove the seat & then the gas tank to begin to get to the air filter. Almost everything we now have is like that. Much easier & cheaper to throw away & replace. Besides I'm too old to try to work on my car or motorcycles anymore even if I knew how. At least my son keeps my wife's & my computers going.