Sidewinder, Black Widow or Ranger 2?

[ws62]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum --and the world of mini revolvers-- and would appreciate input from those who own or have used the 2" black widow, 2.5" sidewinder or the new ranger 2. I want a small "carry everywhere" gun for pocket carry, with enough barrel length to squeeze out decent velocity from a 22 or 22 magnum. I would love a 4" for actual shooting, but am thinking it's just too long for everyday pocket carry. Don't want to go under 2" due to velocity loss and some pointability, which pretty much has narrowed my choices to what is listed above.

Here are some specific questions I'm hoping to get answered:

1) Does loading the black widow feel like a pain compared to loading/unloading the sidewinder or ranger? Seems like there would be an advantage to keeping a gun all in one piece--especially in the dark or cold weather loading.

2) I read that NAA will be making the Ranger 2 in a 2.5" barrel soon. Has anyone heard how soon that might be? Worth waiting for? Does the ranger have any functional or other notable advantage over the sidewinder?

3) Does NAA or anyone have any published ballistics on the 2.5" models? I'm wondering how they would compare to the 2" black widow ballistics.

4) I like the movable sights on the black widow. How much practical advantage do they carry over those on the sidewinder or ranger?

Lots to consider here, and would like to make the right decision the first time. 

Thanks,  Bill

[ikoiko]

Welcome to the forum.
1) not really a pain to load the Black widow, it’s a nice piece. You do have the possibility of dropping the cylinder or pin though.

2) my guess is it will be a while before different barrel lengths for the Ranger will be available. Ranger has only been out a short time, may be an advantage with the Ranger in ease of loading.
Wouldn’t depend on a fast reload in any of the minis defensive wise.

3) somewhere on the website are some ballistic charts. Don’t know that 2.5 inch is there.

4) I have the adjustable sights, not useful in my opinion. Sight down the top of the barrel.

Edit: spelling/auto spell

[Dinadan]

(1) If you are shooting at a range, reloading over a bench, then reloading the Black Widow versus the Sidewinder is six of one and a half dozen of the other. If you like plinking in the woods or pasture, then there is a definite plus in having a Sidewinder and not having three pieces of revolver to keep hold of when you reload.

(2) I have no inside knowledge, but based on previous models it can take a while (a year or two) for the new barrel length to be available.

(3) I have not seen any ballistics for the 2.5" Minis. Here is a link to NAA's ballistics tables. The 2.5" is going to be better than the 2" and worse than the 3".
https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/

(4) I have never used adjustable sights on a Mini so I have no knowledge.

(5) The Sheriff is also a 2.5" Mini, so add it to your list. If your primary desire is for concealed carry then the Black Widow with standard grips (not the factory BW grips) might be best. The 2.5' Sidewinder is just a little long for pocket carry, though it is my favorite daily carry. My suggestion is to buy which ever one of the three you like the look of best, but be sure to get a conversion model so you can shoot LR if you want to. Sidewinder, Sheriff, or Black Widow, I bet you will love it!

(6)Welcome to the forum!

[seaotter]

As always, it depends on your intended usage. The fixed sights on the BW are very usable. The adjustable ones are too easily moved for pocket carry. The two inch barrel seems to be a good compromise between accuracy and concealability. Some find the grip to be too large, but it does make shooting it a lot easier. If you are going to buy it for self defense at short ranges, you may want to consider buying two of the 1.6 inch mini mags instead of a Sidewinder/Ranger, as a New York reload is faster and more reliable by far than trying to reload any mini!  If you want a plinker, then the Ranger or Sidewinder would be great. I personally have a BW and a short barrel LR mini. The LR is tiny, and kind of tricky to shoot, but it's the only fire arm that I know of that you can draw and keep hidden inside your closed hand, ready to fire, when in a sketchy situation.
Really, though, buy whatever tickles your fancy. You are going to end up buying more of them anyway!

[Canoeal]

 I am a fan of the BW w/ fixed sights. The gun is a work of art. The adjustable sights did not stay put for me so I changed mine to fixed sights, and for me they work fine. The stock grips are good and are carryable. I find it to be the most practical of all the NAAs but I have not tried them all, as I have no use for the 22lrs, and want more bang for  my buck than the Pug offers.JMO. I made a set of oversized Cherry grips for mine, that look good,but I seem to keep going back to the rubber grips.
To reload, I take the pin out and first thing stick it in my shirt pocket. I have never dropped it while loading.

[LHB]

You've never had to lean over for any reason while reloading?  Stuff falls out of my shirt pocket, and if it goes into the pants pocket, it will take a while to find it among all the other necessities I carry.  I hate it when stuff goes into water or snow.

[WECSOG]

My recommendation is the Black Widow with both cylinders (.22 LR/Mag) and fixed sights. Like Al said, it's the most bang for the buck.
In my opinion if you decide you like the Minis you will eventually want a BW anyway, so might as well get it first.

[redhawk4]

Perhaps buy a BW and get a spare cylinder pin or two?

[seak]

For forty years the removable pin and cylinder have worked just fine. Hear lots of complaints and the two newer models. Newer really seen complains about always dropping parts and being untrusted in quick firefight. I carry the BW now and favorite so far

[Uncle Fatso]

If you actually intend to carry it for serious purposes I'd get the simple, reliable Black Widow with both cylinders. I'd get two of those, in fact, for about the same $ as one Ranger.

The Ranger 2 and Sidewinder seem to be more problem prone.  I want one I can trust.

[Uncle_Lee]

Welcome to the forum.
I don't need to beat the horse. Everything has been said that I can think of.

Personally I don't completely trust any piece of machinery. At some time all WILL FAIL.
When I am carrying minis, I carry at least 2 sometimes 3.
When I am carrying 9mm autos I carry 2 with a mini or two.

Let us know what you get and how you like it.
Remember:
"If there is no pictures then it didn't happen!!!"

[smokeless joe]

Welcome ws62. I don't own a sidewinder but I do have the Black Widow and the Ranger. Based on my experience with these two I would go with the Black Widow for my first mini due to its accuracy and proven performance over the years. Once the Ranger is in full blown production and "perfected" my view may change due to the easy reloading. Anyway you choose I don't think you can go wrong with an NAA purchase. Keep us posted.

[Gog]

I have 4 models now and to me, the best pocket carry of all is the Black Widow with fixed sights. Seems to be the perfect size to carry in my right front pocket and is very fun to shoot (and shoot well). The ergo's with the grips and lining up the sights are just spot on.
However, like seaotter says, "You are going to end up buying more of them anyway", so just pick one!

[cbl51]

If you actually intend to carry it for serious purposes I'd get the simple, reliable Black Widow with both cylinders. I'd get two of those, in fact, for about the same $ as one Ranger.

The Ranger 2 and Sidewinder seem to be more problem prone.  I want one I can trust.

This!

You need two mini's anyways since they really work better as a pair. There's been a ton studies done, and something like 99.9999% of civilian self defense shootings are over in something like 1.7 shots. The massive odds are you won't ever have to reload in a fight. That's the stuff of gun magazine fantasies. Unless you're a LEO or some sort of 'operative' it ain't gonna happen. If your really worred about it, just carry a spare mini. Their so small it's the easiest solution. The New York reload works very well.

Bill, I posted this on another thread someplace, but can't recall where, so I posted it again. Some very interesting info from a 5 year study. Its has average number of shots at what range and other stuff. Pointsout that even small calibers used at close range are effective at stopping attacks. Enjoy.

[Home|Browse Stories|Incident Map|About|Submit Story|Advertise|Privacy Policy|Contact

Analysis of Five Years of Armed Encounters (With Data Tables)
MARCH 12 2012BY GSL STAFF
Share This Post
              
Incident at a Glance
Gun(s) Used:   Unknown   Location:   Unknown
# of Suspects:   Unknown   Shots Fired:   Unknown
Suspect Killed:   Unknown   State:   
Source:      Archive:   None

Foreword by GunsSaveLives.net
This article was originally written several years ago by Claude Werner. It is republished here, in its entirety (including data tables) with permission.
While the source material is somewhat dated there is still a lot of information we can learn from this. One thing to also note is that the stories used for this study were all situations in which a citizen successfully defended themselves. This means that the study focuses on and shows what works, not what doesn't work.
Author
Claude Werner
Firearms Safety Training LLC
The Armed Citizen – A Five Year Analysis
Overview
For the period 1997 – 2001, reports from "The Armed Citizen" column of the NRA Journals were collected. There were 482 incidents available for inclusion in the analysis. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included. The database is self-selecting in that no non-positive outcomes were reported in the column.
Analysis
As might be expected, the majority of incidents (52%) took place in the home. Next most common locale (32%) was in a business. Incidents took place in public places in 9% of reports and 7% occurred in or around vehicles.
The most common initial crimes were armed robbery (32%), home invasion (30%), and burglary (18%).
Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots fired was 2. When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender's initial response was to fire until empty. It appears that revolver shooters are more likely to empty their guns than autoloader shooters. At least one assailant was killed in 34% of all incidents. At least one assailant was wounded in an additional 29% of all incidents. Of the incidents where shots are fired by a defender, at least one assailant is killed in 53% of those incidents.
Handguns were used in 78% of incidents while long guns were used in 13%; in the balance the type of firearm was not reported. The most common size of handgun was the .35 caliber family (.38, .357, 9mm) at 61%, with most .38s apparently being of the 5 shot variety. Mouseguns (.380s and below) were at 23%, and .40 caliber and up at 15%.
The range of most incidents appears to be short but in excess of touching distance. It appears that most defenders will make the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. Defenders frequently communicate with their attackers before shooting.
The firearm was carried on the body of the defender in only 20% of incidents. In 80% of cases, the firearm was obtained from a place of storage, frequently in another room.
Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots.
Multiple conspirators were involved in 36% of the incidents. However, there were no apparent cases of getaway drivers or lookouts acting as reinforcements for the criminal actor(s) once shooting starts. At the sound of gunfire, immediate flight was the most common response for drivers and lookouts.
When multiple conspirators were involved, the first tier was a two man action team. If another member was available, he was usually the driver of the getaway car and remained in the car. If a fourth conspirator was involved, he was stationed immediately outside the target location as a lookout for the police or other possible intervening parties. The outside conspirators do not generally appear to be armed. It does appear that the trend over the period has increased from one weapon in the action team to two weapons.
The largest group of violent criminal actors was 7, a group that committed serial home invasions in Rochester NY. An alert and prepared homeowner, who saw them invade an adjacent home, accessed his shotgun, and dispatched them (2 killed and 1 seriously wounded) when they broke in his door.
Incidents rarely occurred in reaction time (i.e., ¼ second increments). Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear.
The most common responses of criminals upon being shot were to flee immediately or expire. With few exceptions, criminals ceased their advances immediately upon being shot. Even small caliber handguns displayed a significant degree of instant lethality (30 per cent immediate one shot kills) when employed at close range. Many criminal actors vocally expressed their fear of being shot when the defender displayed a weapon. Upon the criminals' flight, the "victims" frequently chased and captured or shot the criminals and held them for the authorities.
Conclusions
1) Even small caliber weapons are adequate to solve the vast majority of incidents requiring armed self-defense.
2) Mindset of the potential victim was far more important than the type of weapon used. All the victims were willing to fight their opponents in order to survive. Although not common, in some cases bridge weapons, such as pens, were used to gain time to access the firearm.
3) Frequently, the defenders were aware that something was amiss before the action started and then placed themselves in position to access their weapons. Awareness of the surroundings appears to be a key element of successful defense.
4) The defenders had some measure of familiarity with their firearms. Although perhaps not trained in the formal sense, they appear to be able to access a firearm and immediately put it into action. At least one defender learned from a previous experience and made the firearm more accessible for subsequent use.
5) Training or practice with a firearm should include a substantial amount of accessing the firearm from off body locations, such as drawers, underneath counters, etc.
6) This analysis does not present a view of the totality of armed self-defense in that non-positive outcomes were not available for inclusion in the database. The analysis may, however, be useful in helping to describe a methodology for successful armed self-defense. This methodology might be described as:
1. be aware,
2. be willing to fight,
3. have a weapon accessible,
4. be familiar enough with the weapon to employ it without fumbling,
5. when ready, communicate, both verbally and non-verbally, to the attacker that resistance will be given, and
6. if the attacker does not withdraw, counterattack without hesitation.

Location of Incident
Location   %
Home   52%
Business   32%
Public   9%
In/around Vehicle   7%

Shots Fired
Type of Location   No   Yes
Business   33%   72%
Home   25%   75%
Public   29%   71%
In/around Vehicle   35%   65%
Total   28%   72%

Number of Shots Fired
Average   2.2
Median   2
Mode   1
Max   20

Gun Type
Handgun   78%
Long Gun   13%
Unknown   8%

Body Carry
Type of Location   No   Yes
Business   69%   31%
Home   94%   6%
Public   49%   51%
In/around Vehicle   65%   35%
Total   80%   20%

Multiple Assailants
Type of Location   No   Yes
Business   76%   24%
Home   72%   28%
Public   62%   38%
Retail Business   52%   48%
In/around Vehicle   49%   51%
Total   80%   20%
Disqus Comments]

[45flint]

The Sidewinder is I think is their best platform.  Follows a time test tradition, and is just a step above having to take a pin out. How many pins do you see on regular revolvers? come on? After I got my Sidewinder all over NAA pistols got retired.  I have a old Ranger but they are jewelry to me. The new Ranger needs to be proven to me and I think are prettier than a Sidewinder but probably a less reliable long term alternative.

[Bigbird48]

Welcome to the forum. Like everyone has said well like most have said you can't go wrong with a Black Widow. I think its the best of all worlds. I own 7 minis and the one I carry everyday is the BW with fixed sights. It shoots were I point it and it shoots every time. My second favorite would be the Bug Out, awesome little gun Let us know what you get and don't forget a picture

[38sp]

I've had many of the revolvers from NAA. I currently own two black widows and a ranger 2 . I have owned pugs, regular 22s, Magnums and a bug out. In my opinion there is no better small revolver for your pocket then the Black Widow with the low profile sights. They are accurate and utterly reliable.  I have had zero problems with my black widows. If you go to shooting the Bull on  YouTube  he has several videos on the NAA ballistics from a black widow with different types of self-defense ammo.

[franco22]

I have a Black Widow and 2 Sidewinders. I carry the Sidewinders often, usually together. I have the short barreled Sidewinder and the 2.5" model. I like the Black Widow but I prefer the swing out cylinder of the Sidewinder.

[geohuson]

I have 4, including the new ranger, all 22/22mag. I normally carry just the Black Widow with sub-sonic 22lr for close range. Very little gain with the 22mag in a short barrel and I am less likely to jerk the trigger using the 22lr. I have just ordered the sidewinder, I will add the Black Widow grips to it, the bigger grips makes all the small guns a lot more fun to shoot, and hopefully it will still fits in the front pocket with a sticky pocket holster.  If you are talking about shooting just the first 5 shots, any and all of them will work great. Pick one, but start saving your money for the next one.

[keithd]

My Black Widow is my number one choice over my Ranger II and Wasp

[ws62]

Thank you everyone for your replies--very helpful!!

I actually went to a LGS this morning to check out a 2.5" sidewinder. If I get a sidewinder it will definately be the 2.5" version. I was a little disappointed in getting the cylinder to swing out easily, but that could have been a break in issue, or just me not yet being proficient with the gun.

Unfortunately nobody in town has a black widow, but there is a gun show this weekend so I should be able to find one there to check out.The one thing I do know, whichever one I get, I will want the fold down holster grip. It seemed like my hand just wanted to keep creeping up on that little grip. I saw one of the little keltec 32 acp's and handled that too. I already have a S&W model 63, and Ruger LCR in 9mm, which can be used as a pocket carry, so I'm not yet convinced the little auto would be the best choice for me over an NAA.

I do like revolvers for their simplicity and reliability, and the little NAA's do melt away nicely in the pocket. One thing I did notice in the comments was that there didn't appear to be too much concern between the fixed sights of the black widow and the pin/fixed grove sight on the sidewider. Should I assume the stationary sidewinder sights line up vertically with the guns POI?

[Canoeal]

You've never had to lean over for any reason while reloading?  Stuff falls out of my shirt pocket, and if it goes into the pants pocket, it will take a while to find it among all the other necessities I carry.  I hate it when stuff goes into water or snow.

No, I have not had an issue with a shirt pocket. My rule for pants is one thing in each pocket, except the offside front. That holds my money clip and my clip knife. I know you have all seen my daily carry.

I do not expect to ever be in a firefight that would require reloading. Mine is a "get off me" gun. If there is a firefight brewing I am out of Dodge...

[Canoeal]

I would have considered a Sidewinder all else being equal, But I won't give up a 2" barrel and decent sights. Those are requirements as far as I am concerned, and having a grip I can hold doesn't hurt. Yeah. I can change the grips, and let them interfere  with the cylinder, but the Black widow does what I need, at a better price, so why make do with a more expensive gun?

[redhawk4]

I think good grips are essential too, while they help with accuracy, my main concern would be having the gun knocked out of my hand in a scuffle, or just plain dropping it, with the stock shiny wood grips fitted to most of the models. The BW style are the best in terms of function IMO. In a life and death situation, what your grips like is irrelevant.

[grayelky]

WELCOME!!
Short answer: EDC, Ranger II 1 1/2" barrel. I'll get back to this when I get home.

[cbl51]

Soon as you pull the pin to reload, jus put the knurled end of the pin in the corner of your mouth like a tipperillo. Done reloading, take pin form corner of mouth and put back in gun. Works for me.

[WECSOG]

I like the standard pull pin NAA revolvers so much that I also got some pull pin H&R double actions. One of them is even a centerfire (.32 S&W Long).
Simple and reliable is good, in my book.

[LHB]

Know of one H&R 22 whose pin is under water, lost while shooting frogs, (young, dumb, illegal).

[ws62]

Thank you everyone for your replies--very helpful!!

I actually went to a LGS this morning to check out a 2.5" sidewinder. If I get a sidewinder it will definately be the 2.5" version. I was a little disappointed in getting the cylinder to swing out easily, but that could have been a break in issue, or just me not yet being proficient with the gun.

Unfortunately nobody in town has a black widow, but there is a gun show this weekend so I should be able to find one there to check out.The one thing I do know, whichever one I get, I will want the fold down holster grip. It seemed like my hand just wanted to keep creeping up on that little grip. I saw one of the little keltec 32 acp's and handled that too. I already have a S&W model 63, and Ruger LCR in 9mm, which can be used as a pocket carry, so I'm not yet convinced the little auto would be the best choice for me over an NAA.

I do like revolvers for their simplicity and reliability, and the little NAA's do melt away nicely in the pocket. One thing I did notice in the comments was that there didn't appear to be too much concern between the fixed sights of the black widow and the pin/fixed grove sight on the sidewider. Should I assume the stationary sidewinder sights line up vertically with the guns POI?

One other question-- have any of you guys used the 4" barrel models for pocket carry? Any comments?

[grayelky]

Of the choices you listed, my suggestion would be the Ranger II. I find the SW too aggravating to reload, due to the time it takes to get the cylinder open and closed again. Couple that with the extra bulk of the frame to accommodate the crane, and I just don't care for them. The Ranger II is still a little bulky, but once they get to be more readily available, I will get a 1 1/2" barreled one to try as an EDC and a 2 1/2" barreled model to try as a plinker. I am waiting on the arrival of a Bug Out II in 22 mag to possibly replace my Wasp as an EDC.

[HUD]

I would not advise getting the sidewinder. I have one (its on its way back from NAA) and had to have the barrel replaced after less than 100 rounds.  Also, like someone else mentioned, it is not quick to reload by any stretch; the crane is to short and there is no possibility of a speed loader/loading.

[bleak_window]

Black Widow is the most capable of the 3 you listed, with the best sights and the best grips.  It's also the cheapest, by far.

[WECSOG]

Know of one H&R 22 whose pin is under water, lost while shooting frogs, (young, dumb, illegal).

If you still have it, finding a replacement pin shouldn't be too difficult.
I actually once bought an RG pull pin revolver that had a missing pin, so I just fired up my new to me (at that time, about 20 years ago) lathe and made a new pin for it. Problem solved.

[Oddball]

I have a 2.5" Sidewinder and a 1 5/8" Wasp. The Wasp is always a backup and I carry the Sidewinder when I need to carry something very discreet.
The Sidewinder is slightly quicker to reload but definitely not as fast as a normal double action revolver. The crane isn't long enough to let the cylinder clear the frame completely. Its still faster than a normal NAA revolver and it makes reloading in a stressful situation possible where I don't think other minis are.
The Sidewinder is best reloaded with speed strips. 22mag speed strips I have hold ten rounds so I can carry two complete reloads on one strip however unlikely I'd need that or would have a chance to actually accomplish two reloads under fire with a mini.

[Uncle_Lee]

Welcome ws62.
I like the Black Widow for concealed carry and carry two of them.
I don't plan on reloading during a panic minute.
Share what you get and pictures.
If you don't have pictures then it didn't happen.