Stop Whining about your Break Top and think of someone else a minute

[Rick_Jorgenson]

scapegoating as in blaming the enthusiastic members of the forum for rushing the production schedule and causing Sandy to release the Ranger before it was ready. scapegoating as in blaming experienced mini owners for their inability to hit to point of aim with the Rangers as if it couldnt be a problem with the gun.

whining as in complaining about people who have problems and point them out and discuss them, for instance firearms that dont even shoot close to point of aim.  guns that have to go back 3 times to be fixed.

its a discussion board. its going to be pretty boring if people cant discuss what they like, dont like, problems they have, great experiences they have, guns that come back fixed, guns that have to be sent back again. This is how members learn, become aware of things they should check out, try things they havent thought of etc. Even NAA themselves  learn or pick up on things here.

im not complaining about NAA, in my opinion they go above and beyond to keep the customer happy and try to do the right thing. i also understand when people become frustrated. i do think however that some people have unrealistic expectations of what a mini is and what it can do, and what it is for.

nothing personal towards you, just expressing my opinion.

No trouble.  My post was never meant to "Blame anyone"  it was just "arm chair quarterbacking"    the Ranger II Launch and results.   Just my opinion.

[OV-1D]

  And boy oh boy did you open the opinion can of worms , theres just as many opinions as Bushes can of baked beans .
Its all good interesting reading thanks guys I'm just glad I held off in buying one JUST YET . That's pretty much why I held off buying the original kinda waiting on feedback but I did lose out on the EB price of those . My first original I paid $600 buckaroos ,second I think was $700. and the third and fourth I won't admit however I flipped them to make my money back on the others . I really ,really want a 6inch or longer break-top and the conversion cylinders , I'll wait and see and hope I don't lose out on them stop making any of anything . 

[seaotter]

God, girls, and guns: three things that can elicit strong emotions!

[heyjoe]

very possible. could be why some only have problems when shooting magnums.

Torque in the frame at firing, because the only piece taking the stress is the bottom frame. I causes each gun to react differently, but all of the have significant pressure on that bottom frame that causes preseri on the hinge, and in some the play let's them twist, in others, the frame flexes forward. Flexing forward causes issue with the cylinder pin and the haND. As I have said before, I am not a gunsmith, but I don't think you need to be one, in order  to see what is happening. Either the frame needs stiffening, (called replacing), or the lock needs redesigned, to keep the barrel section from moving forward. It is not a lifting problem it is a moving forward problem. That is how I see it, but again, I am no gunsmith.

That is just the way my mind works, picture the process and see where the failure is. I do not look at the failure and  and just figure out how to make it stronger...but fix the underlying issue. All the rest of the NAAs have a full square of a frame, that does not move.

[redhawk4]

Question:
If there was no rush, then is the deep cuts in the cylinder chambers the new normal??

They don't appear in the other minis that I have.

I hardly feel that is "smoking gun" evidence of there being a rush, obviously something went wrong with someones equipment when they were making Ranger cylinders, if I recall that was one of the things in Sandy's soapbox that he could understand why this wasn't done correctly as they'd been doing it successfully for years and was not a new aspect of production for the Ranger. To me that just shows someone messed up either in the skill to do the job or used worn/damaged tooling. It doesn't mean it was caused by haste due to the "imagined pressure"

[OV-1D]

It just stands to reason "MAGNUMS ARE TOO MUCH CARTRIDGE FOR THESE MINI'S" bottom line . These things would have to be made out of titanium to withstand the combustibility's of these "RIFLE CARTRIDGES" dang it . These mini's should be crying the way they are treated . That pivot point on these break-tops has to be a failure point in warping , opening and closing , back and forth , heavy loads in cartridges ......... come on be realistic . Problems will continue no matter how many times its sent back  . Guaranteed if I wanted to bend that barrel bad enough by hand you'll change the point of impact every time . I'm glad they (NAA) was thoughtful enough to include a long rifle cylinder for change out and suggest everyone to use it instead of the magnum . Please remember this is not a hand cannon , never was and never will be . Its a up close and personal type of weapon if one thinks differently you have the wrong gun period , sorry for the bluntness . Just because they made it doesn't say that's the way it should be , I'm surprised the main springs last as long as they do shooting magnums constantly . RANT OVER !   

[redhawk4]

It just stands to reason "MAGNUMS ARE TOO MUCH CARTRIDGE FOR THESE MINI'S" bottom line . These things would have to be made out of titanium to withstand the combustibility's of these "RIFLE CARTRIDGES" dang it . These mini's should be crying the way they are treated . That pivot point on these break-tops has to be a failure point in warping , opening and closing , back and forth , heavy loads in cartridges ......... come on be realistic . Problems will continue no matter how many times its sent back  . Guaranteed if I wanted to bend that barrel bad enough by hand you'll change the point of impact every time . I'm glad they (NAA) was thoughtful enough to include a long rifle cylinder for change out and suggest everyone to use it instead of the magnum . Please remember this is not a hand cannon , never was and never will be . Its a up close and personal type of weapon if one thinks differently you have the wrong gun period , sorry for the bluntness . Just because they made it doesn't say that's the way it should be , I'm surprised the main springs last as long as they do shooting magnums contently . RANT OVER !

While the Ranger is not the strongest design, for obvious reasons given the type of frame, I'm sure that NAA considered in it's design the need to fire 22 mag as that is how it was designed to be, because the 22lr is an option. If you are correct then you are claiming a massive oversight and error on the part of NAA, which while possible, seems unlikely. As I mentioned once before in a post, there is very little metal around the trigger area, but I have no way to know what force that can handle in the same way that the pin that holds the hitch in the back of my pickup truck that can tow over 17k lbs doesn't look man enough for the job either at first glance.

I'm taking mine to the range again today, so we'll see if it holds up this time, if not it might clarify the above theory.

[redhawk4]

 "There are no inaccuracies in the post" ROFL

There were many inaccuracies in your post, or at best things that were completely unfounded opinion relating to NAA and the release of the Ranger II, but once you typed "There are some that are sending them back because "it shoots to the left"  and some other petty reasons. I call BS on those but its their right to send it in.  (I doubt it will make them a better marksman)" you lost all credibility in the eyes of most who've actually fired their Rangers and encountered problems, which would appear to be most of those on the forum, who have done so. Also to clarify, as you asked the question, that was when you became patronising to put it mildly.

Patronising: "treat condescendingly, condescend to, look down on, talk down to, put down, treat like a child, treat with disdain"

Exactly how you referred to the abilities of your colleagues on the forum, who from your judgmental position were the sole cause of Ranger II inaccuracy. Your second post attempting to justify the former only comes over as more condescending than the initial one. If I were you I'd stop digging, the hole is plenty deep enough already.

[cbl51]

No trouble.  My post was never meant to "Blame anyone"  it was just "arm chair quarterbacking"    the Ranger II Launch and results.   Just my opinion.

Well whatever your intentions, your post came out insulting, over bering, as well as patronizing. You complained abut whining, while your post literally screamed whining. And since you chose to post it in a thread I started on how I found out the second mini I had key holed badly, I took it personally. After all, I was one those now 'whining' about quality control at NAA. People paying good money for a product have every right to expect that product to function at it's intended task. When it doesn't, they are entitled to speak About it on a forum dedicated to that product. If it ruffled a few feathers, that's life.

So, there's the members of the forums talking about their experiences with their new guns and you come along and figuratively toss a turd in the punchbowl with a condescending and insulting rant. "Wahhh, they're saying bad things about NAA. Wahhh."

Frankly, I think you own the forum an apology. It was a pretty disgusting post in an immature way.

[JRobyn]

Regarding the "weakness" of the frame, many folks reference the thin bottom frame profile and the wobble in the pivot.  I reiterate and invite you to closely examine just exactly how the barrel latch "dovetail" and latch lock up.  IMHO, this adds very considerable strength and rigidity.

Regarding reasons for the Ranger locking up, I attribute this to one or more of the following problems:

1) extractor star not seating fully in it's recess.
1a) dirty/crunchy extractor/cylinder stem either preventing the extractor from fully seating or the cylinder itself fully seating at the back of the frame.
1b) Inaccurate/rough machining of either/both the extractor star or it's recess.
1c) mis-alignment of the extractor star in it's recess (preventing seating).
2) cylinder just slightly too long for the frame it's fitted to.
3) fired cartridges backing up just slightly and then sticking in the chamber and contacting the back of the frame.

Any problem in category 1) can cause the cylinder to hang on the back of the frame.  The hand then cannot rotate the cylinder = hung up.  The hand is only able to apply a very small amount of rotational force to the cylinder.  When mine has hung, in most cases, if I "help" the cylinder to rotate a bit it will cycle and clear.  You can fix most of the potential issues in 1) with a deep cleaning, tiny touch=up with a jeweler's file, wire-brushing, and polishing.  For 1c), I still don't know exactly how the star is assembled to the stem, but I was able to easily re-align mine with gentle pressure from a needle-nose pliers spanning the star.

For 2), we all know that the tolerances for Rangers are extremely tight, right?  It is very likely to me that a cylinder selected by the smith at the factory for good fit can still subsequently cause hang-ups.  It appears that NAA fires them maybe 5-10 rounds (maybe less!).  Not really enough to heat anything up.  After you have gone to the range and fired yours 50 times, exactly what does the cylinder-frame and cylinder-barrel gap look like?  And both NAAs and .22 ammo are not exactly known for being very clean.  Just exactly how much powder and lead residue do you have on both the back of the cylinder and in the cylinder-barrel gap?  Maybe enough to restrict easy rotation?

Mild cases of 3) can sometimes be addressed by polishing the chambers. Anything more than mild, send it back.

Just some things to consider and maybe check/fix.

P.S. (just to make this even LONGER) - I did have the occurrence a few times of the cylinder not being locked in battery at full-cock by the cylinder bolt, traced back to the bolt spring being out-of-position.  I will attribute this to error on my part while cleaning and re-assembling.  BUT, be careful of this happening; it could possibly be dangerous.

[redhawk4]

Regarding the "weakness" of the frame, many folks reference the thin bottom frame profile and the wobble in the pivot.  I reiterate and invite you to closely examine just exactly how the barrel latch "dovetail" and latch lock up.  IMHO, this adds very considerable strength and rigidity.

Regarding reasons for the Ranger locking up, I attribute this to one or more of the following problems:

1) extractor star not seating fully in it's recess.
1a) dirty/crunchy extractor/cylinder stem either preventing the extractor from fully seating or the cylinder itself fully seating at the back of the frame.
1b) Inaccurate/rough machining of either/both the extractor star or it's recess.
1c) mis-alignment of the extractor star in it's recess (preventing seating).
2) cylinder just slightly too long for the frame it's fitted to.
3) fired cartridges backing up just slightly and then sticking in the chamber and contacting the back of the frame.

Any problem in category 1) can cause the cylinder to hang on the back of the frame.  The hand then cannot rotate the cylinder = hung up.  The hand is only able to apply a very small amount of rotational force to the cylinder.  When mine has hung, in most cases, if I "help" the cylinder to rotate a bit it will cycle and clear.  You can fix most of the potential issues in 1) with a deep cleaning, tiny touch=up with a jeweler's file, wire-brushing, and polishing.  For 1c), I still don't know exactly how the star is assembled to the stem, but I was able to easily re-align mine with gentle pressure from a needle-nose pliers spanning the star.

For 2), we all know that the tolerances for Rangers are extremely tight, right?  It is very likely to me that a cylinder selected by the smith at the factory for good fit can still subsequently cause hang-ups.  It appears that NAA fires them maybe 5-10 rounds (maybe less!).  Not really enough to heat anything up.  After you have gone to the range and fired yours 50 times, exactly what does the cylinder-frame and cylinder-barrel gap look like?  And both NAAs and .22 ammo are not exactly known for being very clean.  Just exactly how much powder and lead residue do you have on both the back of the cylinder and in the cylinder-barrel gap?  Maybe enough to restrict easy rotation?

Mild cases of 3) can sometimes be addressed by polishing the chambers. Anything more than mild, send it back.

Just some things to consider and maybe check/fix.

It does latch at the back when closed to somewhat provide a top strap. A break top frame is going to be weaker than a frame with an enclosed cylinder, but I've yet to be persuaded that less strong means not strong enough.

[Ruger]

Imagine the issues with the Open Top Revolvers . . . . the bottom straps on those that I've seen don't impress me with size . . .

[bill_deshivs]

Most of the open-top revolvers were low pressure black powder guns.

[Joeboots]

So you guys actually shoot your minis ? I just take mine out and play with em 

[Dinadan]

This thread sure smoked out some opinions! Not to mention theories about the problems.

I do think the original post was off target. The folks on this forum are probably some of the most knowledgeable, experienced, and admiring folks around when it come to NAA Minis. But even so, I just do not believe that Sandy rushed a bunch of substandard Rangers out to make us happy.

I do not have a Ranger II so I do not have any first hand experience with the guns. I do tend to agree with the idea that the Magnum may just be too powerful a round for the current break top design. I guess a little more time and shooting will determine that. Look at the Ruger Bearcat. It started as a LR and Magnum revolver, but Ruger decided it was not up to Magnum ammo and switched to selling it as a LR only gun. I know I made the same point in another thread, but I do think that it provides a precedent if NAA should have to make the same decision.

In the meantime I am really rooting for a solution that will make the Ranger as reliable as the other Minis. I want one - but not just yet!

[Bigbird48]

We talk about the tight tolerances of these guns. I know my cylinder would start to lock up after 20 rounds or so. Now with the discussion going I'm thinking the heat caused the cylinder to expand and maybe that was causing the hang up. But after I sent it in it didn't hang up anymore. I'm now wondering if maybe they shaved a little off the bottom of the frame, and hence making it even less strong.Just thinking with my fingers here

[Uncle_Lee]

Question:
If there was no rush, then is the deep cuts in the cylinder chambers the new normal??

They don't appear in the other minis that I have.

I hardly feel that is "smoking gun" evidence of there being a rush, obviously something went wrong with someones equipment when they were making Ranger cylinders, if I recall that was one of the things in Sandy's soapbox that he could understand why this wasn't done correctly as they'd been doing it successfully for years and was not a new aspect of production for the Ranger. To me that just shows someone messed up either in the skill to do the job or used worn/damaged tooling. It doesn't mean it was caused by haste due to the "imagined pressure"

Someone let them out the door.
It wasn't a vendor.

[redhawk4]

Question:
If there was no rush, then is the deep cuts in the cylinder chambers the new normal??

They don't appear in the other minis that I have.

I hardly feel that is "smoking gun" evidence of there being a rush, obviously something went wrong with someones equipment when they were making Ranger cylinders, if I recall that was one of the things in Sandy's soapbox that he could understand why this wasn't done correctly as they'd been doing it successfully for years and was not a new aspect of production for the Ranger. To me that just shows someone messed up either in the skill to do the job or used worn/damaged tooling. It doesn't mean it was caused by haste due to the "imagined pressure"

Someone let them out the door.
It wasn't a vendor.

Well that would be a result of inadequate quality control, not necessarily because they were rushed into production.

[LHB]

Flex at the hinge does not explain why the hammer hangs/locks up when lowering to half cock, or to put in the safety notch.  The hammer is not in a position to be affected by any flex at the hinge.

Also, I thought some one had posted that if you check the SAMMI specs, the pressures were the same for 22 LR and 22 Mag, so why more flex?

[Canoeal]

I propose that we give NAA a break. Let them figure out the issues, and get them resolved. Until then, cut them some slack, and let them figure it out. I for one, am going to stop speculating on what I am not trained in.

[Uncle_Lee]

I propose that we give NAA a break. Let them figure out the issues, and get them resolved. Until then, cut them some slack, and let them figure it out. I for one, am going to stop speculating on what I am not trained in.

Right.

[Bigbird48]

Good Idea  :)we need a new subject

[Rick_Jorgenson]

This thread sure smoked out some opinions! Not to mention theories about the problems.

I do think the original post was off target. The folks on this forum are probably some of the most knowledgeable, experienced, and admiring folks around when it come to NAA Minis. But even so, I just do not believe that Sandy rushed a bunch of substandard Rangers out to make us happy.

I do not have a Ranger II so I do not have any first hand experience with the guns. I do tend to agree with the idea that the Magnum may just be too powerful a round for the current break top design. I guess a little more time and shooting will determine that. Look at the Ruger Bearcat. It started as a LR and Magnum revolver, but Ruger decided it was not up to Magnum ammo and switched to selling it as a LR only gun. I know I made the same point in another thread, but I do think that it provides a precedent if NAA should have to make the same decision.

In the meantime I am really rooting for a solution that will make the Ranger as reliable as the other Minis. I want one - but not just yet!

I do think the original post was off target. The folks on this forum are probably some of the most knowledgeable, experienced, and admiring folks around when it come to NAA Minis. But even so, I just do not believe that Sandy rushed a bunch of substandard Rangers out to make us happy.

Understood, I only tossed the idea's of marketing product launch out to consider.   I never questioned Forum Members knowledge, experience or admiration.
   
We all are here because we like/love these guns and admire the company that makes them.  This post was never about anything else.

Being a small business owner I do consider the "other side" of the business transaction and only hoped to bring that idea forward.

[redhawk4]

I propose that we give NAA a break. Let them figure out the issues, and get them resolved. Until then, cut them some slack, and let them figure it out. I for one, am going to stop speculating on what I am not trained in.

I don't think we need to "cut them a break" as people are only discussing and speculating about the various issues they have encountered and in some cases continue to - it's not like people are attacking NAA or proposing a class action law suit Discussion on the forum is not interfering with NAA's day to day operations or inhibiting their abilities to overcome the problems. Only this morning we see another post from a member who just picked up their Ranger II and is experiencing difficulties, should they be denied the right to ask questions, because others have arbitrarily decided there's too much "negative" discussion? As long as posts are civil and respectful where's the harm in such discussion?, it seems the main proposer of the idea to "Stop Whining" about Ranger II's managed to alienate numerous forum members. If there are people who don't want to read about Ranger II problems then skip them and enjoy the numerous other threads that exist.

Let's stop telling people what they can and cannot comment on, if you take that to it's logical conclusion we won't be able to discuss anything as someone will always find fault with everything that's posted, I see many posts that I ignore and withdraw from many conversations when I see them taking a turn I don't personally like - that's how it works IMO.

[redhawk4]

My point was, and please feel free to check, almost every thread in the NAA guns section makes some reference or comment on the RII. Without reading that there is not much else...

I agree there are too many threads in an ideal world, but unfortunately there are also too many issues and so everyone starts a new thread when their's has problems, which is understandable as they want to have their say. I did that when I first had issues with mine, but subsequently just added my comments into existing threads to avoid that, I noticed the extreme numbers of threads whenever I'd try to refer back to something I'd previously read or commented on and was faced with so many threads that became a chore at best. If I was going to provide direction on how people post I'd suggest that if you have a Ranger question, report or comment, see if you can't include that in an existing thread. while there are lots of other topics I think they get pushed down the thread list so quickly by the numerous Ranger threads that often they quickly drop off people's radar as we tend to only look at the top 5 or 6 in ny subject.

[Ruger]

Hey . . . . JoeBoots - - - WELCOME to the Forum!  So glad to have you!  Be sure to state your opinions often; and post some pictures, too!

[45flint]

I propose that we give NAA a break. Let them figure out the issues, and get them resolved. Until then, cut them some slack, and let them figure it out. I for one, am going to stop speculating on what I am not trained in.

If we all followed this rule there would be no forums?

[Dinadan]

I propose that we give NAA a break. Let them figure out the issues, and get them resolved. Until then, cut them some slack, and let them figure it out. I for one, am going to stop speculating on what I am not trained in.

If we all followed this rule there would be no forums?

Excellent point! I was kind of scratching my head trying to think of a non Ranger thread to start. A topic that is not about a problem! I want to see the threads about problems but it is kind of nice to see some that are just good gun talk.

[Rick_Jorgenson]

Thanks to everyone that participated in this thread.  We all got to know each other just a little bit more.

This let many state their opinion (right or wrong) and agree/disagree on the subject. 

There wasn't even much "thread drift" lol!!! 

We are here because of our appreciation of NAA the company & the products and maybe..... each other   

[Texduk3]

Thanks to everyone that participated in this thread.  We all got to know each other just a little bit more.

This let many state their opinion (right or wrong) and agree/disagree on the subject. 

There wasn't even much "thread drift" lol!!! 

We are here because of our appreciation of NAA the company & the products and maybe..... each other   

just a bunch of gun owners.......shoot'n the stuff

[OV-1D]

Thanks to everyone that participated in this thread.  We all got to know each other just a little bit more.

This let many state their opinion (right or wrong) and agree/disagree on the subject. 

There wasn't even much "thread drift" lol!!! 

We are here because of our appreciation of NAA the company & the products and maybe..... each other   

  All I wanted to add is "As long as you know Rich I'm always right " then and only then we''ll all get along , Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha .
Thanks MR_22 , our new moderator for the afterlife , You just made me get religion again . Ha ,Ha ,Ha ,Ha
Don't forget that right thingy .

[redhawk4]

Flex at the hinge does not explain why the hammer hangs/locks up when lowering to half cock, or to put in the safety notch.  The hammer is not in a position to be affected by any flex at the hinge.

Also, I thought some one had posted that if you check the SAMMI specs, the pressures were the same for 22 LR and 22 Mag, so why more flex?

According to my understandings 1. the pressure in not the same (24,000 psi, 26500) 2. The duration of the pressure is also longer (more powder to burn) max 3 vs max 7gr  3., the weight of the heavier bullet in mags (bullet weight up to 50 grain)  mags commonly 40 gr, vs 25-30gr with some up to 40gr in LR ...

That's the "scientific" explanation for what your hand can clearly tell you when firing a Ranger with the two types of ammo, there is no danger of you being confused as to which is which. In the same way the shooter can tell, I'm sure the Ranger feels it too, whether that's a problem will be reveled in good time.

[redhawk4]

I propose that we give NAA a break. Let them figure out the issues, and get them resolved. Until then, cut them some slack, and let them figure it out. I for one, am going to stop speculating on what I am not trained in.

If we all followed this rule there would be no forums?

Excellent point! I was kind of scratching my head trying to think of a non Ranger thread to start. A topic that is not about a problem! I want to see the threads about problems but it is kind of nice to see some that are just good gun talk.

It's all most members have been talking and thinking about since last October

[OV-1D]

  Seeing I held off buying one of these II models , I'll wait for the long barreled and those by then will be perfect . Besides you guysare going to be talking about this piece till the next model comes out whatever that will be , Ha ,ha .