The Solution to Sticking Ammo

[boone123]

Its the carbon buildup from the powder, sometimes with some ammo happens on the first shot with some ammo.  With some ammo, it never happen's.  I shoot thousands of rounds through  Rugers, Smiths, minis, and any other revolvers I can get my hands on and it is caused by some ammo and not others. I am not saying there are  not some bad chambers out there, but after 378,000 rounds in the last 10 years, I know my ammo.... For instance I have some  Remington ammo that on the seconnd reload in my S&Ws I have to pound on the ejector rod with a chunk of wood. Some other ammo they almost fall out. I have had some good, but the next LOT may have different powder..

[redhawk4]

Its the carbon buildup from the powder, sometimes with some ammo happens on the first shot with some ammo.  With some ammo, it never happen's.  I shoot thousands of rounds through  Rugers, Smiths, minis, and any other revolvers I can get my hands on and it is caused by some ammo and not others. I am not saying there are  not some bad chambers out there, but after 378,000 rounds in the last 10 years, I know my ammo.... For instance I have some  Remington ammo that on the seconnd reload in my S&Ws I have to pound on the ejector rod with a chunk of wood. Some other ammo they almost fall out. I have had some good, but the next LOT may have different powder..

Agreed powder build up can be part of  the issue, or maybe all the issue in some guns, but that doesn't explain how cases then don't stick in the Ranger chambers once the cylinder has cooled, with no cleaning taking place.

[OV-1D]

I took my Ranger II to the range today and had a mixed experience. As I posted on another thread I had some problems with getting sprayed with something again and once more ended up with blood on my face. On the plus side, it fired everything without any misfires and there were no cocking problems even though I purposely didn't attempt to turn the cylinder into place after loading.

I had a lot of sticking case issues and the cylinder popping out instead of lifting the cases. After some experimentation I believe I know what the problem is. When first loaded and fired the gun is cold and the cases come out fairly well. By  the time you've fired 3 cylinders of 22 Mag in reasonably rapid succession the cylinder is so hot it will burn your hands and this is when the sticking gets really bad. If you let it cool for awhile it will work much better again.

The Ranger cylinder is small, with a lot of cutouts and has very little metal in it to dissipate the heat. Therefore the cylinder gets very hot. As a result not only does the cylinder expand reducing the chamber bore for the cartridges, but also the cases cannot transfer their heat to the cylinder to cool down. As a result they are really hot too, and being brass expand significantly. The result is jammed casings. I realised this after being frustrated with the whole thing and fiddling with something else for just a minute or two and then finding the next set of brass extracting somewhere close to how they should. At first I thought it was the different ammo going to Gold Dots from CCI, but then once I'd shot a few Gold Dots, they were sticking. Reverting to CCI again with the cylinder having only a little time to cool down it was working again, but once more as it got hot, the same problem occurred. Admittedly my original cylinder was not well finished in the chambers and the replacement one is better, but the problem based on my experience today is the extreme heat causing jamming between the expanded cases and chamber walls.

For the heck of it I switched to the 22 LR one and loaded and fired it like someone else was paying for the ammo. I had to fire more rounds quickly, but again as things warmed up the cases started to stick and once more I had the "tactical cylinder" that pops out automatically for a reload with a replacement cylinder, rather than the the extractor lifting the shells The 22 LR's stick less due to being shorter cases and therefore less surface area to bind, but they still did.

One of the reasons these problems are likely less prevalent in the other NAA's is probably because they take longer to load and therefore have time too cool more, avoiding the issue, and also the design with the small center pin and no extractor gives the cylinder a bit more metal . The Ranger may be a victim of it's more rapid loading capability.

   FINALLY SOMEONE FIGURED IT OUT . Thanks Redhawk , its only natural for dissimular metals to expand from heat differently and cool differently also . I just wish they (NAA) would enlighten people what to expect when firing these mini's . Overheating creates all sorts of problems with mini's and I'll say it again and again MAGNUMS RUN TOO HOT TO SHOOT TOO MANY CONSTENTLY .

[boone123]

I agree heat from shooting can be a factor, but why then don't all brands  of ammo stick the same? Some brands stick, and some don't
Not the same thing, but have  a 317 Smith that locks up tight with Federal Match Target ammo, but runs great with regular  Federal ammo. Really don't matter anyway because my wife took it.

[Ruger]

. . . . . . Really don't matter anyway because my wife took it.

I bet you still get to clean it . . .

[boone123]

Ruger
The only time it will get shot is if she has a kitchen invasion, so I am not kept very busy cleaning it. That is a good thing..

[JRobyn]

I see that y'all finally arrived at the same conclusion that I did back on 2/27 in http://naaminis.com/smf/index.php?topic=14707.msg148368#msg148368  (post #47)

[motter]

My Sidewinder in 22lr worked and ejected as expected, couple of range trips and all works as expected, pretty happy.   My 22mag cylinder has had sticking problems,  some chamber polishing and testing and fewer sticking problems, one more polishing round and on the next trip to the range well see how it goes.  I expect some fowling over time but not sticking the first 5-10-15 rounds.

[redhawk4]

My Sidewinder in 22lr worked and ejected as expected, couple of range trips and all works as expected, pretty happy.   My 22mag cylinder has had sticking problems,  some chamber polishing and testing and fewer sticking problems, one more polishing round and on the next trip to the range well see how it goes.  I expect some fowling over time but not sticking the first 5-10-15 rounds.

You'll be surprised how hot that cylinder can get after 5 rounds of rapid fire with 22 Mag, by 15 it's really building up heat. If I ever get organised to do it, I'm going to take my infrared thermometer with me on a range trip and check what it gets up to after 15 rounds. The 22 LR produce way less heat, but depending on the ammunition, you seem to get a lot more soot build up, so by the time it gets hot it's dirty too.

[glenn]

Talk to me Glenn, I'll listen. I'm all in on my Black Widows now. Where are you located, I'm in Florida. The Taurus is accurate. I sent you a pm

gadget .... per Taurus 941
I monkeyed with the sticking empties for a while ... then had my LGS send it back to Taurus.  Got it back yesterday.  Work order said the aligned the cylinder & replaced hammer spring .... fired 18 rnds of CCI thru it.
Guy was standing there BSing & said  "Why don't you sell it & get rid of your problems ?"
I said  "Maybe ... but I'd trade it for a KelTec P32."
He said "I've got one & I'll trade ya."   So I made the trade without ever firing the 941 just back from the shop.
So I now own a first gen P32 w/ extra mag.
I ran 2 mags of hollow points thru it without a snag.
I'm liking it.

.

[gadget]

That sounds like a good solution to me Glenn. Glad to hear it worked out well for you. After our deal, I bought the Earl 3" and I love it. I carry it every day crossdraw. It sounds like we're both happy.

[Bigbird48]

How did we go from the ranger11 report and problems a year ago to a tarus problem today

[smokeless joe]

How did we go from the ranger11 report and problems a year ago to a tarus problem today

[glenn]

How did we go from the ranger11 report and problems a year ago to a tarus problem today

Sorry

I was hoping to fly under the thread gestapo's radar.

.

[Uncle_Lee]

How did we go from the ranger11 report and problems a year ago to a tarus problem today

Maybe common problems.
Maybe common solutions.
Maybe someone had a question.
Maybe someone had an answer.
Or it may have been good old thread drift. That happens here.

[glenn]

Thread Drift
Sorry to pizzoff the thread gestapos

.

[Uncle_Lee]

Thread Drift
Sorry to pizzoff the thread gestapos

.

Do not apologize for what we are and what we do.
Sounds like a conservative kneeling before a liberal. 
Conservatives need more back bone.

[OV-1D]

  BY GOD NO TRUER WORDS SPOKEN LATELY , AMEN TO THAT !!

[smokeless joe]

How did we go from the ranger11 report and problems a year ago to a tarus problem today

Maybe common problems.
Maybe common solutions.
Maybe someone had a question.
Maybe someone had an answer.
Or it may have been good old thread drift. That happens here.

I think part of the question was the time in between responses. Almost a year. Maybe not what do I know 

[Warthog]

Thread drift is what makes this forum great.

So how about this, to get it back on track, I honed my ranger II chambers, remember I was once a gunsmith.  Got them so the empties would drop out, really didn't take a lot either.  There were a few machine marks in them that would cause the empties to stick some, plus I do want to try and get the spring in the extractor to be a tiny bit stronger.  But I also do not want to void my warranty.  My Ranger II works well enough now for me.

[Bigbird48]

yea I kinda saw the thread and since I had a lot of problems with my R2 I thought maybe there was some new info after a year on the R2 so I come to see if theres any help on the R2 and I find no relevant info for my R2 so yea I said something.
I personalty hate thread drift as I come here to get answers to particular questions or to give answers on particular questions and I end up having to scroll thru and read a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the thread.

[Rick_Jorgenson]

As for the "Heating up and waiting for the Cooling down" cycle...... I learned a couple things.

I appreciate the knowledge of forum members gun knowledge of NAA's and other brands for some of us, there is no other way to learn about them.

All the stories, testing and time you take to give us your reported findings, is like going to "Gun College! The success's, failures and remedies you share are so important to those of us with much less gun exposure.

I might of missed it in the thread but, maybe some of the manufacture's shell wall thickness's vary? Affecting the cooling down release time?

Bore Polish;  never heard of that before. I will be looking up that process and the tools and materials to do it. 

Here is a simple cooling down process (all in fun) Carry more than one Mini!

#1 Strong side Black Widow
#2 Cross Draw Sidewinder
#3 Small of Back Mini Master
#4 Then Finish Them Off with the Ranger II from your Pocket!
#5 For extra credit! For the craziest advanced NAA owners.... Surprise them with the Watch Pocket NAA "Shorty" 

Thanks for the info and all the Thread Drift!!  My coffee is waiting!

[RogueTS1]

The epitome of the New York Reload! 

[Rick_Jorgenson]

The epitome of the New York Reload! 

[OV-1D]

Replace all those with mini's , one on each end even .

[Uncle_Lee]

How did we go from the ranger11 report and problems a year ago to a tarus problem today

Evolution

[Warthog]

meh.

[Bigbird48]

How did we go from the ranger11 report and problems a year ago to a tarus problem today

Evolution

Good one Unc ya got me there LMAOF

[Dinadan]

yea I kinda saw the thread and since I had a lot of problems with my R2 I thought maybe there was some new info after a year on the R2 so I come to see if theres any help on the R2 and I find no relevant info for my R2 so yea I said something.
I personalty hate thread drift as I come here to get answers to particular questions or to give answers on particular questions and I end up having to scroll thru and read a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the thread.

Bigbird - I think that if anyone here has any actual answers to a question then it will get answered pretty quick. Probably within hours and probably politely and without condescension. None of us here are paid consultants. If we choose to indulge in some sidebar discussions - that is a big part of why we are here. This forum is certainly not flooded with posts: it is not as if you need to wade through hundreds or even dozens of spam posts!

[windstrings]

I took my Ranger II to the range today and had a mixed experience. As I posted on another thread I had some problems with getting sprayed with something again and once more ended up with blood on my face. On the plus side, it fired everything without any misfires and there were no cocking problems even though I purposely didn't attempt to turn the cylinder into place after loading.

I had a lot of sticking case issues and the cylinder popping out instead of lifting the cases. After some experimentation I believe I know what the problem is. When first loaded and fired the gun is cold and the cases come out fairly well. By  the time you've fired 3 cylinders of 22 Mag in reasonably rapid succession the cylinder is so hot it will burn your hands and this is when the sticking gets really bad. If you let it cool for awhile it will work much better again.

The Ranger cylinder is small, with a lot of cutouts and has very little metal in it to dissipate the heat. Therefore the cylinder gets very hot. As a result not only does the cylinder expand reducing the chamber bore for the cartridges, but also the cases cannot transfer their heat to the cylinder to cool down. As a result they are really hot too, and being brass expand significantly. The result is jammed casings. I realised this after being frustrated with the whole thing and fiddling with something else for just a minute or two and then finding the next set of brass extracting somewhere close to how they should. At first I thought it was the different ammo going to Gold Dots from CCI, but then once I'd shot a few Gold Dots, they were sticking. Reverting to CCI again with the cylinder having only a little time to cool down it was working again, but once more as it got hot, the same problem occurred. Admittedly my original cylinder was not well finished in the chambers and the replacement one is better, but the problem based on my experience today is the extreme heat causing jamming between the expanded cases and chamber walls.

For the heck of it I switched to the 22 LR one and loaded and fired it like someone else was paying for the ammo. I had to fire more rounds quickly, but again as things warmed up the cases started to stick and once more I had the "tactical cylinder" that pops out automatically for a reload with a replacement cylinder, rather than the the extractor lifting the shells The 22 LR's stick less due to being shorter cases and therefore less surface area to bind, but they still did.

One of the reasons these problems are likely less prevalent in the other NAA's is probably because they take longer to load and therefore have time too cool more, avoiding the issue, and also the design with the small center pin and no extractor gives the cylinder a bit more metal . The Ranger may be a victim of it's more rapid loading capability.

I had the same experience with my Ranger II 22 mag using  Hornady V-max 30gr. I love the bullets bc they seem not to tumble as bad out of the short barrel and are quite accurate.

After firing a few rounds of 5 they too stick but I'll tell you, keeping the cylinder slightly oiled helps. Prob attracts more gunpower but it does work.
I too noticed after cooling things were normal and even while hot, new rounds fell in the hole quite easily which tells me it is an expanding issue with the casing. I'm sure the cylinder expands too, but these hot rounds do expand after shooting... I expect more so than the cylinder making them a bit tight to get out.
Its not practicle to wait till things cool if you want to go plink a while so oiling is the best bet... just keep a little can of gun oil handy... its not like you take this gun to the range for extended shooting anyway....
But it's sinkin tiny so nothing to dissipate the heat... the cylinder gets as hot as many gun barrels if you shoot more than about 20 rounds through it!...

Its the nature of the beast.. I honestly see no other way around it...
I'm sure of you took a stainless frame for a 45 acp and managed to bore out the cylinders to shoot 50 cal or 460, you would have the same issue.

If you want a tiny gun with a big bang.... oh well... hopefully in real life, you will never need to reload and if so the first go round may not stick.....
Mine never sticks so bad they won't some out, just sometimes the whole cylinder with slide up and out as the extractor exerts so much force to cause it to release from its latch keeper.

[Canoeal]

Read the ammo warnings ...it says not to use varmint rounds due to cases expanding...Hmm...better to use the newer SD rounds.

https://northamericanarms.com/safety/

[barrytheprof]

The Ranger cylinder is small, with a lot of cutouts and has very little metal in it to dissipate the heat. Therefore the cylinder gets very hot. As a result not only does the cylinder expand reducing the chamber bore for the cartridges, but also the cases cannot transfer their heat to the cylinder to cool down.

Just a nit to pick . . . believe it or not I remember my physics class in 1968 where we learned that contrary to expectations when an object with a hole is heated it expands, and so does the hole. That's why heating a rusted nut frees it.

The problem here is that the heated barrel preheats the brass cartridge which expands more than steel, The preheated brass expands even more after firing. The solution is to slow down, or cool the barrel before reloading. I suggest moving to North Dakota and shooting in winter.

[barrytheprof]

How about if you bring your ammo in a six-pack cooler with some blue ice packs in it?

Or you could do what I did and buy an extra mag cylinder for each gun, and have the guns cross timed so you can use any cylinder in any gun. I have two minis, with 4 mag cylinders and 2 LR cylinders, all interchangeable.

The six pack idea is a lot cheaper though.

[Uncle_Lee]

Bring more minis and rotate.

[Rick_Jorgenson]

Bring more minis and rotate.

I'm with Uncle_Lee on this one!

"Trot" them all out.... they can use the fresh air.  If they haven't been out for a while they could use a cleaning and lube anyway 

And as always..... a good caressing!