You concealed carry mini fans are a unique bunch

[bearcatter]

On other forums, there is the continual argument over the "best" self defense caliber.  Then, there is this forum. With a sizeable number of people who feel confident with half a handful of .22WMR or even .22LR gun to save their bacon. I catch enough flak for having went "down" to my new Guardian 32.

I've never fired a mini, but imagine the WMR would be tough to hold on to, and the LR almost as much. But, I did once think I'd use .22LR for carry, with the Beretta Bobcat 21A. That idea ended after two of them proved to be too unreliable for carry. I can't believe its MSRP is more than my .32.

I think there is a market for a truly high quality .22LR semi-auto pistol, since there aren't any. A Guardian .22LR would be perfect!!!

[rogertc1]

Small 22lr semi autos are very ammo sensitive unless you use CCI  Min Max or comparable reliable high powered 22 ammo.

[SteveZ-FL]

Semi-auto pistols are okay.  I have a few of them in various calibers.  When one feels it is necessary or probable for an umteen round response, the semi-autos are the appropriate carry..

My risk profile these days doesn't anticipate the need for a multi-round response.  A single-action (which has a very light trigger pull) increases (for me, anyway) a much better on-target first shot than the heavier pull with a double-action pistol or revolver.  The potential for more than a couple shots being needed is very remote. That makes (again for me) an NAA mini an appropriate carry.

I can still remember a drill sergeant explaining, in ways only a '60s era drill sergeant could, why a single accurate shot was way better than several rounds fired in haste.  He was proven right back then and time hasn't eroded his wisdom.

[billmeek]

The best self defense caliber is the one in the gun that you always have with you.  That's what makes the "pocket guns" like the NAA so special.  It's easy to always have one (or more) on you.

I ran across this the other day searching for info on 22 Mag stopping power:

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

What I found interesting was the stats on the 9mm (which is what I usually carry) vs the 22 short, long and long rifle.  The article didn't list 22 Mag I have in the NAAs. 

[bill_deshivs]

Don't read too much into that. The rimfires did not say whether they were fired from a handgun or rifle. My bet is most were rifle shots.
The difference in pistol/rifle is quite dramatic with .22s.

[RogueTS1]

Bearcatter; the 21a is very reliable after one has polished the chamber and feed ramp. Before that it is questionable. Quick 5 minute job if one has the right tools/instruments for the job. 

Mine will shoot everything.

[pietro]

I think there is a market for a truly high quality .22LR semi-auto pistol, since there aren't any.

Walther made a truly high quality (small) .22LR semi-auto pistol - the TPH .22

Most prospective small .22LR  autoloader purchasers want cheap & perfect - oxymorons (I'll leave others to decide if the goals or the buyers are the oxymorons )

Great desires - only, "perfect" isn't cheap.


.

[PaducahMichael]

And there's the Walther PPK/S in .22LR. I feed mine cci and never have a problem.

[billmeek]

The rimfires did not say whether they were fired from a handgun or rifle. My bet is most were rifle shots.

I'd assume the opposite since the title of the post was about 'handgun stopping power' rather than 'cartridge stopping power'.  The way I read it he only threw in rifle and shotguns to illustrate the point he made later in the text:

All handguns suck! If you want to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!

[top dog]

The Wa;ther TPH also comes in 25acp but I have never seen one in that caliber. I have seen a number of TPHs in 22lr but not 25acp.

Did they stop making them in that caliber or is it only a sometime production run??

Beautiful little pieces. The Walther PPKs in 22lr is also a true gem.

                                                                        Top Dog

[SteveZ-FL]

I have a pair of Taurus sem!-autos, the PT-22 (,22LR) and PT-25 (.25ACP).  Both are tip-barrel designs similar to the Tomcat. At about a pound loaded with 10 rounds (9+1) the PT-25 ia handy when the number of rounds matters. 

[cbl51]

On other forums, there is the continual argument over the "best" self defense caliber.  Then, there is this forum. With a sizeable number of people who feel confident with half a handful of .22WMR or even .22LR gun to save their bacon. I catch enough flak for having went "down" to my new Guardian 32.

I've never fired a mini, but imagine the WMR would be tough to hold on to, and the LR almost as much. But, I did once think I'd use .22LR for carry, with the Beretta Bobcat 21A. That idea ended after two of them proved to be too unreliable for carry. I can't believe its MSRP is more than my .32.

I think there is a market for a truly high quality .22LR semi-auto pistol, since there aren't any. A Guardian .22LR would be perfect!!!

Bearcat, I agree and disagree with that.

I am on record for the terms rimfire and semi auto not being in the same sentence. Yes, some .22 semi's are pretty reliable, but due the nature of rimfire priming, I just won't bother to mess with anything but a rimfire revolver for the subject of personal defense. The small NAA mini's or the S&W J frames or the Ruger LCR in .22 makes a fine personal defense gun. It's all in how you look at it. If I wanted a small semi of defense, I'd make sure it was a .25acp or a .32acp. No rimfire.

Yes, the gun magazine guru's all preach that bigger is better and if it begins with a "4" better still. But how many of the gun magazine gun
gurus have ever shot anyone in a ugly situation? The only gun guru's that had real world experience was Bill Jordan and Jim Cirillo. And in his book "No Second Place Winner, Mr. Jordan stated that the .22 mag in a small revolver would be a very good self defense gun. In his years with he U.S. Border Patrol, Mr. Jordan survived several encounters of the ugly kind and lived to tell about it. That puts him head and sholders above the gun writers that hold a degree in Journalism and have never shot anyone in their life. And that's the problem, there's a very big difference between theories and real world.

When a criminal thug gets shot, he doesn't care if its a .22 or a larger caliber. It hurts like heck. He isn't going to stop and say, "Was that a .22 you just gut shot me with?" Criminals being cowards by nature are not looking for a fire fight. They just want an easy victim for their next bit of cash to drop on some meth. Armed resistance makes 99% of most street criminals flee. Most times a shot is never needing to be fired. They just don't want get shot. For me, and the retired lifestyle I live, I don't feel the need for a nice black tactical wonder gun with a couple spare magazines that give me enough firepower to stand off a Mexican drug cartel. In the over thirty years of carrying a NAA mini .22, it's saved my butt three times by being there. I've yet had to engage drug cartel members.

As far as the small calibers being not adequate defense, do this; google the Reagan shooting. Watch the tape very carefully. Every single one of the people down that day was hit with one single round of .22 from a 39.95 RG22. A couple of them were messed up for life. Pay careful attention to the tall fair haired young man in the light gray suit. That was the secret service agent that was Reagens 'door man' that day. He took one round in the stomach and literally flew a bit backwards and was down for the count. We al know how Jim Brady fared, and the police captain that got hit in the neck.

I don't read gun magainzes, nor do I pay much attention to the gun shop guru's. All I go by is my own experience and what I have personally experienced myself or close friends I grew up with in N.E Washington D.C. The caliber of the gun doesn't make a darn bit of difference if the shooter does his job and is familiar with the gun anyhow to use it and puts the bullet in the right spot. The biggest thing is to make sure you have a gun, and the mini fits in a pocket as easy as a pocket knife. It will be there when you need it.

[RogueTS1]

The Wa;ther TPH also comes in 25acp but I have never seen one in that caliber. I have seen a number of TPHs in 22lr but not 25acp.

Did they stop making them in that caliber or is it only a sometime production run??

Beautiful little pieces. The Walther PPKs in 22lr is also a true gem.

                                                                        Top Dog

Top dog; Walther does not make the TPH's any more in either caliber. They are still out there for purchase if someone is willing to pony up the money being asked for them or if one is lucky enough to find one at a pawn shop that does not know what they have.

Here is one in .22LR (top photo far right) and one in 6.35mm (bottom photo).

[bearcatter]

I'm aware of the TPH and the original PPK/S being quality .22 semis. But not made anymore and commanding big green. The current PPK/s .22 is Zamak zinc alloy and not even made by Walther. May be an okay gun, but no match for the original.

On the Beretta 21, I polished chambers, ramps, and recoil arms. Tried shortening mainsprings. Tried over a dozen brands of ammo, Velocitors did the best. At best, mine were maybe 95%. Not good enough for carry.

[oughtsix]

In the many thousands of posts I have read about which calibers are acceptable for carrying and which caliper you would be crazy to carry I have never once come across anyone with the first hand experience of actually having shot someone in self defense.  So all these posts are mere speculation and opinion.  You can shoot gel until you are blue in the face but shooting a block of gel has very little to do with shooting a person during a life threatening moment.

The one person I have ever met that actually shot someone in self defense was jumped by two guys (druggies) on his way to work.  He had a Glock in his belt and a .22 derringer in his winter coat pocket.  He drew his derringer because his Glock wasn't readily accessible and got one attacker in the thigh which scared the heck out of the attackers causing them to flee.  I met this guy in passing once and didn't really deem it appropriate to even ask him about the incident so all I really know is what I read in the paper.

The internet is full of Monday morning quarterbacks that know everything and are more than happy to share their opinion as fact.  I carry what I feel comfortable with whether it be a .22 mag, .380, 9mm or .45 and don't really give a half of darn about what everyone's opinion is.  I may or may not share information about what I carry but don't really consider it anyone's business but my own.

NAA .22 mag is a bigger gun than the .22 lr with a bigger grip and I find the NAA .22 mag much easier to draw, aim and control while shooting.  For me the NAA .22 lr is too small with the factory grips to aim, shoot and control well enough to be a viable self defense option for me.  I will be experimenting with different grips on my .22 lr revolver to see if I can make it a usable weapon for me without making it so big that I might as well carry my .22 mag revolver.

[Gog]

I think this is a great video and has useful info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyR1K92pyq4

[SteveZ-FL]

I'm aware of the TPH and the original PPK/S being quality .22 semis. But not made anymore and commanding big green. The current PPK/s .22 is Zamak zinc alloy and not even made by Walther. May be an okay gun, but no match for the original.

On the Beretta 21, I polished chambers, ramps, and recoil arms. Tried shortening mainsprings. Tried over a dozen brands of ammo, Velocitors did the best. At best, mine were maybe 95%. Not good enough for carry.

That's why I don't carry a .22LR semi.  The one I have is strictly a range plinker.  Rimfires for carry  handguns are fine in a revolver, but semi-autos all (to me, anyway) are another story.  In handguns .25ACP may have similar ballistics to .22LR, but that little bit extra reliability when a semi-auto is the weapon-of-choice provides a lot of peace-of-mind. 

To paraphrase a popular commercial....."I don't always carry a semi-auto, but when I do, it's a classic!" 
My Baby Browning still is my favorite semi-auto carry.  This little gem has been around for a long time, for good reason.

Back to NAA Minis.....for .22LR and .22WMR, I haven't found anything better in these calibers for carry use than NAA.

. 

[RogueTS1]

SteveZ; top photo far left for a Baby Browning .............. with a twist. 

[SteveZ-FL]

SteveZ; top photo far left for a Baby Browning .............. with a twist. 

Neat!  This one's been in the family for 53 years. I remember when my father bought it in 1964.  Had it apart yesterday for cleaning.  It still fires well, all original parts.  It's a good example of how long a quality firearm can continue if it receives proper care.

[PaducahMichael]

The current PPK/s .22 is Zamak zinc alloy and not even made by Walther. May be an okay gun, but no match for the original.

I know mine says Walther and "made in Germany" on the slide. I know it performs well. I also know that it costs a LOT less than "an original". Mine was $300 out the door.  There's a like new in box TPH on Gunbroker for only about $1500.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/769639006

[ikoiko]

I have a ppk/s I bought in the late 80's or very early 90's. Interarms. Those "in the know" derided it.
Never had any troubles from it. Everyone that fired it like it. Shoots well. Over the years, it's been the most carried.

[seaotter]

{edited d/t grammatical errors}
I find the "best caliber" discussions to be rather irrelevant, as they tend to focus on the search for the "perfect" pistol cartridge. Because, when you get right down to it, there isn't one. The choice of caliber depends on a number of things. I think we can all agree that a machete would more more effective in a fight than a folding pocket knife. But we carry pocket knives, not machetes, because carrying a machete everywhere would be considered inappropriate, unless you were in thick under brush. We carry folders because they are much easier to carry, even though the are less effective. The same thing is true of a mini. A 12 gauge is far more effective than a 22 revolver, but carrying a 12 gauge in most environments is simply not acceptable. A 22 mini, on the other hand, can be taken anywhere you need it. Is it effective? Sometimes. I don't carry it as my main firearm in bear country, but I do carry it when si have to walk through a dark empty parking lot. As in so many other facets of life, what you carry depends on a number of factors that only you can calculate for yourself

[Uncle_Lee]

 seaotter, you hit it.
One carries what they feel safe with.

If one feels safe only with a 567 magnum, then that is what they should carry.


The "mine is bigger therefore better" attitude sux.

[WECSOG]

So does the "you're an idiot if you don't have at least 15 rounds onboard, plus two reloads" crowd. 

[cbl51]

I find the "best caliber" discussions to be rather irrelevant, as they tend to focus on the search for the "perfect" pistol cartridge. Because, when you get right down to it, there isn't one. The choice of caliber depends on a number of things:
A. What can you carry integard to size? I think we can all agree that a machete would more more effective in a fight than a folding pocket knife. But we carry pocket knives, not machetes, because carrying a machete everywhere would be considered inappropriate, unless you were in thick under brush. We carry folders because they are much easier to carry, even though the are less effective. The same thing is true of a mini. A 12 gauge is far more effective than a 22 revolver, but carrying a 12 gauge in most environments is simply not acceptable. A 22 mini, on the other hand, can be taken anywhere you need it. Is it effective? Sometimes. I don't carry it as my main firearm in bear country, but I do carry it when si have to walk through a dark empty parking lot. As in so many other facets of life, what you carry depends on a number of factors that only you can calculate for yourself

Otter, I wish I could put things so exactly to the point like you do, rather than my habit of blathering on until I forget what point I was trying to make. So well put for the plus's of the mini.

[bearcatter]

I agree about about the big bore, 18 round magazine, and "I always carry three extra mags" crowd. Guys that claim to carry a N frame revolver or a 1911 "under a T-shirt" in the summer. Get real. That's gonna get spotted a block away.

I'm not a small guy, 6'2" and 220 lbs.. I thought I was going to carry a snub SP101, after reading all the hype from people that claim to. No way you can hide it under less than a heavy jacket, or in its pocket. Now That I have a Guardian, I'd just as soon sell the SP. Problem is the "extras". I have half a dozen holsters and several speedloaders I'd dread eBaying, and have no idea how to unload 1500 rounds of .38 I'd no longer need. I'll likely just keep it for the nightstand.

[Boisesteve]

Otter, you said it well.  So did you cbl,  also very well explained. 
I also have carried the little minirevolver since they came out. I worked in an ER, was verbally threatened many times,
but thankfully no one who said they 'would', ever 'did'. Lucky for me and for them.
About that Beretta m21a, I had an early one. Fabulous trigger, unbelievably spooky accurate too,
but velocity-limited by the tiny barrel, and practicality-limited by its need for scrupulous cleaning.
It had to be cleaned EVERY DAY (or more!) if carried, or lint or maybe condensation made it eject unreliably.
At the range, it had to be brushed through at least every 20 rounds or it fed and ejected unreliably. If maintained as it wanted,
it shot the first two mags with complete reliability. Thinking back on it, it was like a girlfriend I had back then:
an exquisite little beauty, but with unlivable high maintenance. The gal didn't stay, and I didn't keep the m21.
I still have my Spanish Fork NAA.
Be well all, Boise Steve

[Dinadan]

I'm not a small guy, 6'2" and 220 lbs.. I thought I was going to carry a snub SP101, after reading all the hype from people that claim to. No way you can hide it under less than a heavy jacket, or in its pocket. Now That I have a Guardian, I'd just as soon sell the SP. Problem is the "extras". I have half a dozen holsters and several speedloaders I'd dread eBaying, and have no idea how to unload 1500 rounds of .38 I'd no longer need. I'll likely just keep it for the nightstand.

When I decided to start carrying on a daily basis I did my research and read all the stuff about how perfect a .357 SP101 is for concealed carry. I loved the way it looked and the way it felt in my hand so I bought one. I am an average fellow, 5'11" and 170 ... and that SP101 did not work for me either. After a few months I gave up on  the SP101 and started looking for smaller alternatives. I wanted a revolver because I had already had some experience with small semis that were bad about jamming ... so I wound up on this forum and pretty soon I had a Pug ... and then a Black Widow ... and then ...

Anyway, my SP101 resides in my headboard and helps me sleep at night. Sometimes on a cold winter day, two or three times a year, I carry it in a concealment vest or under a long heavy coat.

[seaotter]

[/quote]

Otter, I wish I could put things so exactly to the point like you do, rather than my habit of blathering on until I forget what point I was trying to make. So well put for the plus's of the mini.
[/quote]

🤣 Yeah, my mind does tend to wander a bit sometimes! I really need to do a better job of proofreading before I hit the "post" button! I forget what points B and C were, but I am sure that they would have been brilliant😹 I fixed a couple of things on the post and then gave up.

[cbl51]

I'm not a small guy, 6'2" and 220 lbs.. I thought I was going to carry a snub SP101, after reading all the hype from people that claim to. No way you can hide it under less than a heavy jacket, or in its pocket. Now That I have a Guardian, I'd just as soon sell the SP. Problem is the "extras". I have half a dozen holsters and several speedloaders I'd dread eBaying, and have no idea how to unload 1500 rounds of .38 I'd no longer need. I'll likely just keep it for the nightstand.

When I decided to start carrying on a daily basis I did my research and read all the stuff about how perfect a .357 SP101 is for concealed carry. I loved the way it looked and the way it felt in my hand so I bought one. I am an average fellow, 5'11" and 170 ... and that SP101 did not work for me either. After a few months I gave up on  the SP101 and started looking for smaller alternatives. I wanted a revolver because I had already had some experience with small semis that were bad about jamming ... so I wound up on this forum and pretty soon I had a Pug ... and then a Black Widow ... and then ...

Anyway, my SP101 resides in my headboard and helps me sleep at night. Sometimes on a cold winter day, two or three times a year, I carry it in a concealment vest or under a long heavy coat.

This is why I don't believe anything the gun magazine guru's write anymore. They make these claims that such and such is a great carry gun. But them you buy one and try to carry it audit's awkward, heavy, uncomfortable, and impractical. Yeah, they make claims that with the right holster and belt you can carry a 1911 under a T-shirt. Right. BS!

Half the guys I know who claim to carry a "Real" gun don't really carry them. Ask them and "Oh it's home. If I go someplace I think I need it I'll carry it." Wow, if your going someplace you think you need a gun, why go there? Heck, if I thought I was gong to need a gun tomorrow, I'll be down at the airport tonight for the first flight out to the Keys for some fishing.

I tried a lot of the small semi's and the problem was a coulee of things. As much as I loved the Beretta, they had no extractor and the chamber had to be really clean. I loved the baby Browning I had, but one day I had it field stripped for cleaning and really looked at the sear engagement on it. That itty bitty little ledge was all that was holding it from gong off. Kind of gave me the willies. But when I bought a mini in the 80's I was captivated by it. Tiny enough to conceal in any kind of clothing in hot weather, conceals in small camera cases, ultra reliable with any ammo you shove in it, and not too expensive. What's not to love!

A small pocket size gun makes life sooooo much easier and 99% of most street punks are cowards that flee at the first sign of armed resistance. And a .22 stinger or mini mag will totally ruin some low life's night. I've never felt the need for umpteen rounds of a big bore gun to feel safe.

[Canoeal]

Many of us here fit that bill...

[bleak_window]

That's probably the best thing about this forum.  The testosterone-fueled debates don't apply when everyone is carrying a tiny .22.

[cbl51]

I've spent a lot of time wondering why people on this forum are that different. Go in most gun shops and you get the "If it doesn't begin with a 4, it ain't gonna do the job" often quoted by the guru that hasn't been in a violent encounter since the fist fight in back of the gym in junior high school.

Is it a geographic thing, with the mini people having a background in more urban environments? Or is it an age thing, with mostly older people going for the smaller gun?

Or is it like the people who will buy a compact car like a Honda over a large V8 powered SUV, recognizing efficiency and practicality for their needs over flash and bulk?

There's a lot of people on this forum, and like Jack Web said, every one of them has a story. It would be very interesting to find out some of those stories and see how they ended up here on a mini revolver forum instead of the tactical  zillion round  capacity.

[PaducahMichael]

That's probably the best thing about this forum.  The testosterone-fueled debates don't apply when everyone is carrying a tiny .22.

A lot of us are so old that testosterone is a distant memory.

[Canoeal]

I've spent a lot of time wondering why people on this forum are that different. Go in most gun shops and you get the "If it doesn't begin with a 4, it ain't gonna do the job" often quoted by the guru that hasn't been in a violent encounter since the fist fight in back of the gym in junior high school.

Is it a geographic thing, with the mini people having a background in more urban environments? Or is it an age thing, with mostly older people going for the smaller gun?

Or is it like the people who will buy a compact car like a Honda over a large V8 powered SUV, recognizing efficiency and practicality for their needs over flash and bulk?

There's a lot of people on this forum, and like Jack Web said, every one of them has a story. It would be very interesting to find out some of those stories and see how they ended up here on a mini revolver forum instead of the tactical  zillion round  capacity.

The answer in part, I think, is experience. I have both (in vehicles) I have a V8 powered full-sized van, with a trailer hitch and a removable bed. I use it for business to get my stuff and my boats to shows, and I use it to "camp". We also have a Subaru Forester, for around town day trips, shopping etc...It gets better mileage, but in reality We do not put a lot of miles on either. I cannot put enough in the Forester to do shows and I Don't camp on the ground after knee replacements, I have learned.
The same thing goes with our guns. I have a J-frame sized CA, and a BW, I think overall the CA is more accurate, and a quality gun, and being DA/SA, better to shoot quickly. When I bought 4" version, as an in the house that mife wife might shoot, I quickly realized the 2" version was never going to be my kind of carry gun. I looked at and tried small pocket  semi-autos and they were smaller and lighter, but not in my comfort zone, as I always was a revolver guy. So, I end up at NAA, and chose the BW. For me that too, is a compromise; a compromise between the best NAA for performance, and the higher velocity of 22 mag, and still a size I will carry everyday. So for now BW is it, and I am happy with the decision . IF I ever decide I want a smaller gun, I will look at 15/8" barrels and Bugout 2 to start.