Mini Sights and Accuracy Question

[Bj]

How much better accuracy, group size, or shooting distance do you get using Pug, BW, or MM sights compared to the other mimi sights?  I'm especially curious for those at or over retirement age, open sights seem more difficult to use as I get older.  Maybe the progressive bifocals are part of the problem.

[Dinadan]

How much better accuracy, group size, or shooting distance do you get using Pug, BW, or MM sights compared to the other mimi sights?  I'm especially curious for those at or over retirement age, open sights seem more difficult to use as I get older.  Maybe the progressive bifocals are part of the problem.

Kind of a tough question. I am retirement age and I do wear progressive trifocals, so I guess we are not too different. I like the sights on the Pug, and the ones one the Black Widow are okay; but I am not too sure that they actually help my accuracy. My best accuracy is with the Sidewinders and with my 3' Earl. For me that little bead sight on the Sidewinders and Earls works best. That is for target shooting.

For me, the very short sight radius of the Pug makes good accuracy very hard when I shoot free hand. I do not think that any sight would make that better, speaking just for myself. My BW is an older model; I gather that the new BWs have different sights. On my BW I would not complain about the sights but I consider them inferior to the bead on the Sidewinder or Earl.

[billmeek]

I just started shooting again last year after around 30 years.  I quickly discovered that my eyesight was an issue seeing the pistol sights unless I was wearing my reading glasses.  Then I couldn't see the target clearly with the reading glasses on. So after much trial and error (and a lot of money buying sights), I decided the best option was just to practice point-and-shoot.  So most of my pistol practice is without ever looking at the sights.  If I ever have to defend myself, I don't want to be scrambling for my glasses first.

The Pug uses the XS Dot Sights which are built for speed rather than pinpoint accuracy.  The "lollipop" or "dot the i" design is what is used on really big game rifles (i.e. elephant guns) when speed matters.  For a small defense pistol, I think it's a perfect choice.  I wear 2 diopter glasses for reading and the XS sights are a blur without glasses.  But I can still pickup enough of them (relatively quickly) to be effective.  Odds are that I'd never use them in a defensive situation.

I like having the night sights too as all I have to do at shorter range is put the glowing dot of the front sight on the target.

If accuracy is your thing, then I'd look at another type of sight.  I'm (somewhat patiently) waiting on the Black Widow to be available with the XS Sights.

[Canoeal]

All I can give you is this target, shot offhand  with my BW in 22 Mag.

[RogueTS1]

It just takes practice and learning point of aim for each.

[Uncle Fatso]

I do quite a bit better with my Black Widow than with my 4" Earl or 1 5/8" Magnum.  I blacked out the dots on the rear sight of the BW and replaced the white front dot with a bright orange dot. It really stands out to my 61 year-old eyes.

[Ruger]

Al - seems pretty good for hitting Pumps and Pipes, which is why we carry anyway. 

[Warthog]

No Targets but Open Sights work for me at a measly 55 yrs old too.

At Handgun self defense range, which tends to be up close rather than far away, I find I "Point Shoot" more than actually use the sights.

[Clynch]

my 1 1/8 has a big blade at the muzzle and nothing by the hammer.  I'm getting pretty good with it.  I was thinking of touching it up with a little paint or nail polish by the hammer.  If I make a small dot on the rt and lt of where the hammer hits, that might help aquisition.  I think in the long run, it won't matter.  Practice with it as is and it will work out.  Charter arms 44 bull dog has no sites.  Seacamp has no sites and i havent heard complaints

[RICKS PLACE]

I am in the same area of point shooting as that youngster, Warty.  In my 60s, I began to lose the ability to pick up my front sight.  So, came the red paint.  In my 70s. even the paint didn't help a lot.  Now in my 80s, I realize any shooting will be at card table range on a man sized target when using a mini.    My Single Nines have the standard fire sights that come on these guns, they help a lot.  With those guns, I can still stay in the 8 ring at 10-15 yards if I take my time. 

[Boisesteve]

With my two regular minis (both 1 5/8", one is LR only, the other is a convert. that I use in 22mag) I practice a rapidly acquired basic sight picture and its good enough for the self defense range that I expect these could get used at, up to around 7 yds. I bring the gun up to sight height fast, look down the top flat surface of the frame and barrel,  just place the front sight blade over what I intend to hit and trigger the shot.  It's fast and with practice, good enough.
With my 4" 22mag Earl I take a bit more time and get a real sight picture with the tiny post front sight it's got. Doing so, I can hit pop bottles or gatorade bottles at whatever distance I throw them out to. That's all the accuracy I ask of these minis, and they can deliver just fine, whenever I ask.
Be well all, Boise Steve

[Canoeal]

No Targets but Open Sights work for me at a measly 55 yrs old too.

At Handgun self defense range, which tends to be up close rather than far away, I find I "Point Shoot" more than actually use the sights.

I practice both ways, actually aiming my BW and point and shoot...A really good target requires aiming, but I hit the target (not just the paper) point and shoot 5-7 yds...

One of the test I used to tell people to try is to take a silhouette target out to 7 yds, place your gun (pointed downrange) on the bench in front of you. take a good look at the target, close your eyes, pick up your gun (eyes closed) cock and shoot the target 5 times. Look at the target. if you hit the silhouette with all five, you can call yourself a good shot with that gun, if not, you need to practice with that one. Make sure your range is safe to do this...

I know the safety police might get on me for this, and I also know it is not easy. 3 out of five is better side of average...But when you can do that with the guns you carry, you will worry less about missing the BG if the time comes. I do that, because sometimes you just will not be able to, or have time to use the sights. Why? Because in a SD situation you make be shooting quickly,  in dark or near dark, and it is best if you can feel where the gun is pointed...

Try it as a challenge, all you who are well practiced with your guns, let me know how you do.

[SteveZ-FL]

No Targets but Open Sights work for me at a measly 55 yrs old too.

At Handgun self defense range, which tends to be up close rather than far away, I find I "Point Shoot" more than actually use the sights.

I practice both ways, actually aiming my BW and point and shoot...A really good target requires aiming, but I hit the target (not just the paper) point and shoot 5-7 yds...

One of the test I used to tell people to try is to take a silhouette target out to 7 yds, place your gun (pointed downrange) on the bench in front of you. take a good look at the target, close your eyes, pick up your gun (eyes closed) cock and shoot the target 5 times. Look at the target. if you hit the silhouette with all five, you can call yourself a good shot with that gun, if not, you need to practice with that one. Make sure your range is safe to do this...

I know the safety police might get on me for this, and I also know it is not easy. 3 out of five is better side of average...But when you can do that with the guns you carry, you will worry less about missing the BG if the time comes. I do that, because sometimes you just will not be able to, or have time to use the sights. Why? Because in a SD situation you make be shooting quickly,  in dark or near dark, and it is best if you can feel where the gun is pointed...

Try it as a challenge, all you who are well practiced with your guns, let me know how you do.

Another way to practice this technique (and others) is with air guns.  There are several inexpensive small-sized air pistols on the market.  For urbanites and others without wide-open-spaces access, air pistols can give one the opportunty to practice in other than a commercial range.  One can never have too much training or practice, and integrating air gun use into the practice regime can add a loit more range time.

Since the recoil from .25ACP and smaller handguns is virtually nil, practice with an appropriate air pistol provides a reasonable simulation similar enough to help keep skills sharp and practice new techniques without "live" ammunition.  One still needs to exercise caution (including eyewear), as many air pistols operate as fairly high pressure/velocity.   

I'm lucky because I have a couple multi-lane air gun ranges close by, one within walking distance.  It makes spur-of-the-moment practice a lot easier than going to the local gun store's attached range (which is often fully booked).   

[Canoeal]

"Another way to practice this technique (and others) is with air guns. "

No, not for the kind of familiarity you want in a carry gun. You cannot get the same motions, the same cocking of your gun, the same trigger feel and the same exact knowing of your accuracy if you use a different gun to practice. If you just want mindless plinking you could do that, but it will do nothing for you overall familiarity and trust that you build with the one you carry. I don't even use 22lr to practice, as I want to use the gun the way I carry it; so o there is no, even little difference, when I might need it. Just my way of thinking...

I would never be able to do the above drill, if I practiced with a different gun...and expect the one I carry to point the same...Just me...

[billmeek]

Assuming that practice ammo in 22LR can be bought for 4 cents a round and 22 WMR is about 16 cents a round... For $100 you can shoot about 625 rounds of 22WMR.  But I'd opt for 200 rounds of WMR and 1700 rounds of 22LR for the same amount of money.  You get a whole lot more practice for your cost and grip, hammer set, trigger, aiming doesn't change.  Only the recoil and report are different. 

If I shoot what I carry (Speer Gold Dot - Short Barrel) then I'd only fire about 400 rounds for the same money.

What I do is fire the Speer Gold Dots as my first rounds at the range, shoot several 22LR, fire some 22WMR, and then reload for carry with the Speer Gold Dots.

In my 9mm pistols, I mainly use good practice ammo.  I do (rarely) fire a mag of Hornady Critical Defense (or Critical Duty for the longer barrels) every now and then to make sure that there aren't any ammo related issues. 

[SteveZ-FL]

"Another way to practice this technique (and others) is with air guns. "

No, not for the kind of instant familiarity you want in a carry gun. You cannot get the same motions, the same cocking of your gun, the same trigger feel and the same exact knowing of your accuracy if you use a different gun to practice. If you just want mindless plinking you could do that, but it will do nothing for you overall familiarity and trust that you build with the one you carry. I don't even use 22lr to practice, as I want to use the gun the way I carry it; so o there is no, even little difference, when I might need it. Just my way of thinking...

I would never be able to do the above drill, if I practiced with a different gun...and expect the one I carry to point the same...Just me...

"Instant familiarity" is like becoming an "overnight success" - It can take a very long time.  However, once attained, the goal shifts from skill attainmnt to skill maintenance, and that can involve many techniques. After six decades handling firearms and well over a decade and countless hours of drill with my favorite handguns, "instant familiarity" skill maintenance is now the goal . 

Maintaining hand-eye coordination does not necessarily mean having to stand in a partitioned firing lane at an urban indoor range, manipulate a paper target on an electric-pulleyed guyline and endure the flying brass from the fellow in the next lane.  There are other ways to supplement the LGS indoor range time which is where the airgun usage fits, especially where opportunity to practice is increased due to convenience. 

From what I've seen over the years, range time at the LGS indoor range doesn't include "draw from the holster and fire" and other such semi-tactical exercises.  Due to the number of folk at the indoor range and necessity to maintain safety, rarely is anything other than "handgun on stand, downrange at all times; ear and eye protection must be warned."   Any deviation is usually banishment from the range.  As a result, "live fire" in an environment (no ear/eye protection, varying lighting, weather, wardrobe, etc.) replicating true SD situations is quite uncommon.  So, for SD practice in true SD environments, "dry fire" is all that's available for most folk.

Cost and availability of ammunition (especially small caliber) these days is not a factor as it was just a few short years ago.  When even .22lr was unavailable just about everywhere, I found airgunning as an alternative to burning off my limited ammo stockpike.  For keeping the hand steady and eye sharp, it still works, and being outside in the fresh air as opposed to a windowless indoor range has additional skill-maintenance benefits.

One thing makes me nervous - firing while knowing that any percentage of shots will probably miss a human-size target regardless of distance to target.  There are two types of Point-and-Shoot.  The first is to simply quickly sight on target and then shoot, knowing the handgun is indeed on-target and that target is tight enough to not cause collateral damage (even by a round passing completely through the target).  If that tight a placement can't occur, the handgun isn't fired.    The second type of point-and-shoot is quickly presenting the handgun towards the target and then rapid-firing (even if the rapid fire is only one shot).  Firing in self-defense does not give one license to endanger others in one's own protection.  "Collateral damage" is serious stuff, and shots fired without full control of direction and purpose is the fastest way towards collateral damage.

[Honky Tonk Man]

SteveZ-FL Quote:

"Another way to practice this technique (and others) is with air guns.  There are several inexpensive small-sized air pistols on the market.  For urbanites and others without wide-open-spaces access, air pistols can give one the opportunty to practice in other than a commercial range.  One can never have too much training or practice, and integrating air gun use into the practice regime can add a loit more range time."

In '68 the US Army was teaching a shooting technique called "Quick Kill".  I'll try to relate this as accurately as I can, but it's been 50 years, so bear with me.  This training happened toward the end of Basic.  We had plenty of shooting and qualifying under our belt by then.  This technique was similar to what civilians called "Snap Shooting.  Everyone went through this training to teach us to shoot at a threat without deliberately aiming.  Most of us were looking at serving in Vietnam shortly, and when the Drill Instructors told us "Pay attention this will keep you alive." we listened! 

We were issued special Daisy BB guns, safety goggles, and split up into 2 man groups. The BB Guns were the same as we used as kids, but didn't have any sights.  We were told to shoulder the weapon, instinctively point it at the target and shoot.  No deliberate aiming.  You kept your neck and head upright.  No cheek weld, you were looking a line 6"-8" above the barrel.  We started with large stationary targets placed in a row 10 feet in front of you.  Then the targets became progressively smaller.  Before you knew it; you were consistently hitting clothes pin sized targets.  After mastering this, we took turns tossing large (paper plate sized) targets up in the air, and our buddy would shoot them.  Again the targets grew smaller until we could hit quarter-sized  slugs tossed in the air. 

This sounds harder than it was.  I was surprised how quickly we caught on.  Later that day, we walked a trail thru the woods and targets (fellow G.I.s) would pop out and we would have to shoot the ones we I.D.'d as enemies, and pass on the ones that were dressed as "Friendlies".  It was pretty intense, because if you missed, they could return fire.  Remember we had goggles.  At the end of the course we walked a straight path down a firing range and shot Quick Kill style at pop-up enemy targets with our M-14s and live ammo. 

I thought it was some of the best training we ever got in Basic.  I'm not sure exactly why, or when it was discontinued, but it was soon gone.  Maybe when the war ended?  Nobody asked me.

Tom

[Canoeal]

I don't know where that word 'instant' came from...I removed it...now it says what I meant. No, familiarity only comes from lots of use and practice and handling in every shape, position and sighting you can do...