"Ring of Fire" pistols; Raven, Jennings, Davis, AMT, Bryco, Lorcin, Phoenix, Cobra and Jimenez

Bubba · August-06-12 12:08

We did some research on a fascinating part of U.S. firearms history, the small, low caliber, inexpensive pistols made by manufacturers in the Los Angeles area who were given the nickname, the "Ring of Fire" companies.



   Raven, Jennings, Davis, AMT, Bryco, Lorcin, Phoenix, Cobra and Jimenez are linked in various complex ways to each other through family, business practice or firearm design.



   "Ring of Fire" Saturday Night Specials

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uiz7upuiGk">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uiz7upuiGk



   Hope you enjoy it.. can't wait to do one on the NNA history.. stay tuned



   This research was inspired by Mndoug's post from a while back !!



   ./discus/messages/2/22156.html

Bubba · August-06-12 14:08

Bubba · August-06-12 14:08

cedarview kid · August-22-12 21:08

Actually, I wouldn't really list Phoenix Arms in this category, although I know some would. I like my HP22 and find it very reliable. Not like the junk from the other manufacturers.

Also not quite sure why you included AMT in the list.

Uncle_Lee · August-23-12 05:08

AMT's are good solid stainless steel handguns.

Bubba · August-29-12 23:08

AMTs were included in the original companies when the term "ring of fire" was created



   I suspect you didn't listen to the video, LOL

   (I say it a few times in there)

Bubba · August-29-12 23:08

Phoenix Arms is literally the reincarnation of Raven Arms

the new HP pistols are upgraded from the Jennings J-22

Uncle_Lee · August-30-12 06:08

Sorry Bubba,

   Ya, I didn't watch the video, but I am downloading it now so I can watching.

   I WILL watch it.

   Thank you

magnum_mike · August-30-12 06:08

I had a Jennings J-22, horrible poc. It wouldnt fire more than one round without some type of failure. I dont care what ammo you feed it, it would jam. It also shot no where NEAR point of aim, lol! The trigger was so heavy/rough, most of the time i had to do a double check to make sure the safety was "off". It could be counted on to do NOTHING resembling a gun, that much was for sure and for certain. lol

RogueTS1 · August-30-12 09:08

I have a couple Raven .25's and they are decent little guns. By no means an NAA but for what they were designed for they have never let me down. Always go bang, still look like new and were always fairly accurate.

Uncle_Lee · August-30-12 10:08

My download failed.....

Bubba · August-31-12 22:08

it is long, I can put it on a website that you could pull it down from if that would be easier for you

Uncle_Lee · September-01-12 05:09

OK Bubba,

Please do.

louiethelump · September-01-12 09:09

Oh, so it is Bubba's video?



   "(I say it a few times in there)"



    I listened in to a conversation between the originator of the Raven and the owner of the gunshop where I used to work part time at one of the first SHOT shows I went to. The Raven guy said he only made about a dollar per gun profit but had sold over a million of them before the first law suit forced him into bankruptcy. They then rented different space, moved the machines and re-opened with minor changes in the new place and new name. Good scam if you don't really have a conscience. build crap; sell a lot of it; when someone gets hurt from your crap, go out of business and open up with same product and new name and do it again. The guns are still crap and they are still making money off of fools that buy them for defense.



   Gotta love it

cedarview kid · September-01-12 09:09

i didn't watch it either. My bad.

Jennings are CRAP. Raven and Phoenix, not so much.

Bubba · September-01-12 15:09

You guys are all entitled to your opinions, I don't have a dog in the race, I don't know any of the companies or any of the people who made these guns...



   That said, as I research these guns I grow more and more respect for their place in our society.



   They are inexpensive, no one is suggesting they are not..



   However I relate them to harbor freight tools.

   They are crude, slapped together and are priced accordingly.

   IMO, this does not make them good or bad, it just makes them different from the higher end options



   Like a cheap tool, these guns are not for every situation, but we all use tools differently and for different reasons



   I know there is a long history of a poor reputation of these guns, (and again I am not suggesting that is undo).. but a lot of 'reputation' comes from inexperienced shooters expecting them to perform like the Glocks they see and hear about, and the three stories published in the 1990s that I reference in the video



   As I did my research (and continue to) I find that most, if not all articles written refer back to at least one of the three that started the hype in the 1990s (and on closer look, two of those three reference the first one heavily)

   So in my findings, there is little if any new 'research' being done, and a LOT of simple 'reference'



   Anyway, I came to these guns with simply a vague interest, but, after doing some digging, I have become completely amazed by how many layers there are to them.







   I do NOT believe they were made by ruthless, life hating, crime loving, capitalists who went out of business every few months to avoid justified lawsuits ..



   Instead if you look at the last ten pages of the "Ring of Fife" paper written in 1995 which calls for the elimination of small firearms manufacturers by "any means necessary", including suing them all out of existence. The author urged anyone with an anti-gun position to sue the manufacturers who could not handle such attacks..



   This was their way of getting rid of guns, not with laws, but by attacking the manufacturers financially



   The lawsuit that broke Bryco was a record judgement of $24 million dollars

   In that case a 12 year old babysitter shot a 7 year old in the neck while trying to unload the pistol



   Do you really think the manufacturer is at fault when someone left their 12-yr old babysitter with access to a loaded pistol ??







   The reason I think these cheap guns are ignored and dismissed at our (gun owners) own peril.. is that if we let the anti-gun types take away these cheap pistols, whats next?



   The other small pistols that aren't cheaply made??



   It is a slippery slope, and there needs to be NO new law or vote by anyone who is elected for this to happen



   All it would take is the ATF to decide that small pocket size pistols have no "sporting use"



   I am really stoked on these guns, their history and how they fit into our culture, our society and our laws..

   Plus I have started to collect them and they are everywhere for under $100



   Don't mean to go on and on about non-NAA guns here though, thanks for your time

boone123 · September-01-12 15:09

Bubba.

Well said.

Bubba · September-01-12 16:09

Yup, Louie, it's my video, this is a project I have been working on



   It is sort of a prep for the better one I'll do for the NAA History & Family Tree



   Uncle Lee, (and anyone else who would like a copy) here is a link to the video file and the .pdf that I used in the video



   Video -

   http://www.gunwebsites.com/Pistol-Ring-of-Fire.wmv">http://www.gunwebsites.com/Pistol-Ring-of-Fire.wmv



   PDF -

   http://gunwebsites.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Ring-of-Fire-2012-08-06.pdf">http://gunwebsites.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Ring-of-Fire-2012-08-06.pdf

louiethelump · September-01-12 17:09

Bubba:



   Each to their own, and you of course are welcome to your opinion, and we may just have to agree to disagree on some issues. There are people that "collect" things that are totally useless and if they choose to do that, so be it. (bottle caps, match books, etc.) There are those that collect guns that cannot be fired due to age or other reasons and any collection of anything is FINE with me.



   I, and I don't think anyone else here, suggested any laws or the support for any laws on these or any other guns. If someone did; I missed it, and I CERTAINLY do not want anyone to think I support such legislation. These guns are self regulating, and I never suggested the makers were evil, or any of the other things that you may have perceived from my post. I told the anecdote for information of how a man made a million dollars profit from a poorly made item that was built from the beginning to a price point, and not for durability or reliability. His market is the poor who need just BASIC defense guns, and unfortunately this often includes criminals who don't want to invest in the best quality tools. That aspect is also self regulating as when they attempt to use these guns against police and even members of the public, they are often shot dead or severely beaten while trying to get the gun to work and that ends the issue.



   When S&W introduced their little 380 Sigma, they were aiming at the Raven and related gun market and shooting for that price point and attempting to make a gun that actually worked well at the same price point. S&W had done a survey and testing of that classification of "Ring of fire" guns and determined that AVERAGE rounds fired from those guns between malfunctions was 1.2 rounds. The Sigma 380 worked better but did not sell well for whatever reason and did not last long.



   In summary, I see handguns as quality tools and want them to be durable and reliable. I may collect them in quantity, but each must meet that requirement of quality and reliability or it does not stay. I would never consider one of the guns we are discussing for personal defense as I think more of the life of my loved ones and myself than to rely on poorly made tools.



   I worked a second job part time in a gun shop from 1981 to 1996 to supplement income while a City police officer. The business owner would not sell the guns we are discussing as when he had tried a few when they first came out they all came back with reliability issues. The guns at that time were bought by the dealer at $39 each (1981 or so) and sold well for "Hanks Pawn Shop" down the street from the gun store at 89 or 99 dollars, and we sent folks looking for those guns to Hank. They would often then come to us for repairs and we would turn them away, as Raven would not sell any parts for them, not even the striker/firing pin which was an item that broke with great frequency. They were designed to be disposable and if they broke you were supposed to throw them away and buy another. People would often bring them in and try to trade them in on a real working gun when they discovered how bad they really were. We had a whole box of them in the back room that the owner had allowed 10 dollars credit for on the purchase of a real gun and when we ran out of room for them they would be sent to the Sheriff for destruction.



   This is my frame of reference on them. Our legal system allowed what that manufacturer did and there was nothing illegal about it. I would not do it, but each to their own.



   I wish you happy collecting and have no hostility toward anyone wishing to own or even use these very poorly made guns, as that use is also self correcting under the Darwin system of gene pool cleansing. I believe in freedom and free will and only try to inform folks who DO NOT know; what they are getting into.

heyjoe · September-01-12 17:09

ok ill admit i just chuckled a few times

Bubba · September-01-12 17:09

Thanks for the insight Louie, I know these little guns have a lot of history



   I am not implying or suggesting anything with my post, sorry if it seemed that way



   I am just trying to express how interesting I find the story of these

louiethelump · September-01-12 19:09

I have to admire the folks really. They have a great business model and have been truly successful financially. Really it is a great "only in America" story.

Uncle_Lee · September-04-12 04:09

Hey Bubba,

   Thanks,

   Downloaded.

   Interesting, Seems like they would have done better if the family had gotten along better.

Bubba · September-04-12 09:09

LOL, yea.. But families are families



   I have taken everything I've read from about the families with a grain of salt since the only people who really know what went on probably are keeping personal things to themselves



   but IMO it seems as though the Jennings family brands were all doing OK until Lorcin jumped in and started to compete with all of them directly



   but that is yet to be determined I guess