NAA Mini Against Armed Assailants

[Gun1]

I've been attempting to perfect my shooting speed with my NAA mini but I cannot overcome the single action aspect and the fastest that I can accurately shoot all 5 rounds is about 3.1-3.5 seconds. Given the small caliber I figured it's probably best to fire 2 or 3 rounds at your assailant. However, given the fact that it's single action and therefore needs to be cocked before every shot would you guys consider the NAA mini as a weapon to use against an assailant carrying only a knife, bat, broken glass bottle, ect. or would you guys consider the NAA mini as a suitable weapon to use against an assailant carrying a gun? I know that carrying a large caliber firearm would be the way to go but if the NAA mini was all you had against an assailant armed with a gun would you guys feel confident engaging the assailant with the NAA mini or would you rather try to make a run for it or comply with the assailant's demands because using the NAA mini against an assailant carrying a gun is more likely to get you killed than help you?

[Uncle_Lee]

OK..
Since an NAA Pug is the gun that I have with me most, I would use it against any danger that confronted me.

If some dude was coming at me with a knife (or anything, i.e. a spoon) I wouldn't take the time to think about shooting him/her. I would do it and think later.

I am old and fragile and a single blow with a fist could put me out forever. Can't let that happen. Can't let anyone but God or me chose the time.

[billmeek]

If your life is in danger, take the shot and keep shooting until you have neutralized the threat.

[mrmurl]

If your life is in danger, take the shot and keep shooting until you have neutralized the threat.

My feelings exactly.  Shoot and then keep shooting.  I carry a larger caliber pistol as well as my BW.  Sometimes I have to leave the other pistol in the vehicle, like for a doctor appointment, but the BW is always in my pocket. I pray I never have to use it, but it is comforting to know it is there if need be.

[RICKS PLACE]

Too many factors involved to say what to do.  Distance, light conditions, available cover, and so on.  Take cover first is possible.  Then return fire if practical.  I was in front of 9 rounds from a H&R .22.  There were several of us all found cover behind a small compact car.  Could not return fire due to background.  None of us were hit.  He ran back into the house to reload, we gassed the house ending the problem. The NAA is not a stand "Wyatt Earp" style weapon.  If a bad guy is already shooting and close enough, you are probably already down.  Don't fire all 5 unless sure of a hit. Speed if fine, accuracy is fatal. 

[bearcatter]

Too many factors involved to say what to do.  Distance, light conditions, available cover, and so on.  Take cover first is possible.  Then return fire if practical........

Yeah, first rule of a confrontation is to avoid getting shot. The OP sounds too nervous at this point, hopefully he can sort it out. Many times the sight of another gun is enough to spook an assailant, but you can't count on it. My problem with minis is that they are so small, someone may not know it's a gun until you shoot it. I guess one reason I chose a Guardian for carry.

[Rick_Jorgenson]

Protect wife and yourself, talking, throwing your wallet down, whatever for distraction and take cover or turn so they cannot see you draw, then...

* Surprise needs to be on your side. You should not draw on someone that has a gun on you at that moment. (the distraction is used)
* Shoot when you can place the shot and then a second and/or third. (only when they are not aware you have a weapon)
* Main goal is to come out of this unharmed.  Shooting the OP is an option only when it would be safe for you (and it may never be in that instance.)
* Someone with a knife must be shot. (video interview of Tucker of Tucker Gun Leather) Knives will maim someone forever. If that is the OP intent they must be shot.

This info is from someone with very little training.  I have only seen video training scenarios and had a few hours of class/hands on.

Experts in this field.... please feel free to critique or change if this has a "professional" better option.

At that moment it's better than the 9mm or .45 you have in the glove box!

[bearcatter]

Why do we want to shoot the Original Poster?.......

I don't think Gun1 would appreciate that....

[heyjoe]

if its a robbery you are much better off just having some throw down money and getting away when they go to pick it up. if its a robbery and you are pretty sure they are going to shoot you anyway or if you are being assaulted then you do your best. 

[Dinadan]

I've been attempting to perfect my shooting speed with my NAA mini but I cannot overcome the single action aspect and the fastest that I can accurately shoot all 5 rounds is about 3.1-3.5 seconds.

I am going to make a wild guess that most folks who carry handguns, whether revolver or semi, cannot accurately shoot any faster than one round per second. So if you can actually shoot five accurately aimed rounds in under four seconds, I think that is pretty darn good. No matter what gun you are using.

would you guys consider the NAA mini as a weapon to use against an assailant carrying only a knife, bat, broken glass bottle, ect. or would you guys consider the NAA mini as a suitable weapon to use against an assailant carrying a gun?

I would use what I had. Of course the Mini is not  suitable weapon to use against any attacker. A twelve gauge would be suitable, but I have to walk funny if I stuff one of those in my pants. Everything about carrying is a compromise.

[WECSOG]

...if the NAA mini was all you had against an assailant armed with a gun would you guys feel confident engaging the assailant with the NAA mini or would you rather try to make a run for it or comply with the assailant's demands because using the NAA mini against an assailant carrying a gun is more likely to get you killed than help you?

This is a very common misconception: that you need to have power, round count and rapid fire ability to match or exceed your assailant. Those things would seem to be of utmost importance, but are in reality relatively irrelevant.  In fact, that attitude can get you killed. It doesn't take 13, 9mm or larger misses to kill you. It only takes a single .22 Short in the right spot. Any missed rounds fired before the lethal shot don't matter except to give your assailant more time to get that one shot into you. A 15 shot, .40 caliber Glock is no more (nor less) deadly than a single shot .22.

[LHB]

And those 13 rounds of 9mm are going to be hard to explain to the jury.   Who do you think you are, a Chicago cop down in the hood?   The public doesn't like a perp gitting shot, let alone multiple times.

[Honky Tonk Man]

If you're shooting to stop the threat to you or yours; shoot as many times as it takes to eliminate the threat. Train as realistically as you can to minimize round count, but remember adrenaline and other factors are working against you.  Let your lawyer worry about explaining this to the jury.  That's what your paying him or her for.  Just my .02 cents. 

[OV-1D]

  Most important "don't shoot innocent bystanders" or your going to have your butt in a sling and charges ARE going to be a coming . Panic is not a defense so stay calm and shoot as close as you can get to the assailant , also good intentions are not a defense .

[riadat]

I'm not a sheep dog.  I'm a fat middle aged guy.

I carry my mini mostly because I'm lazy. Lots bigger guns.

I will do whatever i need to do to get out of the situation.

I won't be tied up or disarmed.  I will try and protect my wife or kid with my life.

Other than that, money, whatever, don't care we can get new stuff.

For drills vs one armed foe I would try 2 in chest and 1 in head.

[Mr.Mini]

If I had to describe myself as fight or flight, it would be flight. I'm not going to stand around and duel it out with someone armed, if I can help it. I'm getting out of that situation as fast as possible. The mini works in my favor here. The size gives me perfect mobility and if the attacker is close enough I can engage. I train enough with my mini that I feel confident to do so.  I've watched a few YouTube videos on some guys explaining why they carry a larger handgun and the conclusion was similar in all: if the bad guy was around 20 yards away they can confidently take a shot. If I'm that far away my main concern is leaving the scene.

[Uncle_Lee]

I guess I will stand and fight.
Physically, I can not - can not run. Limp off in a hurry, maybe, but I can not run.
So I mentally prepare for that. 

[SteveZ-FL]

I've been attempting to perfect my shooting speed with my NAA mini but I cannot overcome the single action aspect and the fastest that I can accurately shoot all 5 rounds is about 3.1-3.5 seconds. Given the small caliber I figured it's probably best to fire 2 or 3 rounds at your assailant. However, given the fact that it's single action and therefore needs to be cocked before every shot would you guys consider the NAA mini as a weapon to use against an assailant carrying only a knife, bat, broken glass bottle, ect. or would you guys consider the NAA mini as a suitable weapon to use against an assailant carrying a gun? I know that carrying a large caliber firearm would be the way to go but if the NAA mini was all you had against an assailant armed with a gun would you guys feel confident engaging the assailant with the NAA mini or would you rather try to make a run for it or comply with the assailant's demands because using the NAA mini against an assailant carrying a gun is more likely to get you killed than help you?

As the NAA mini is all I usually have on me, I train and practice with it - not to see how fast I can discharge five rounds, but how cleanly I can unholster it,  obtain a firing position, accurately fire the first shot, accurately fire the second shot and then assess the results.  The goal is to neutralize the threat without causing collateral harm, not "throw maximum lead" downrange and end up three seconds later holding a five-ounce steel rock for subsequent defense.

Back in the old days one of the main training principles was fire discipline - the more rounds rapidly fired, the less the potential of accurate hits.  A well-placed first round followed by a well-placed second round was the training goal.  Even with fully automatic hand-held weapons,  a three-round burst was all that one could expect to have target accuracy.

Stress, adrenal-rush, fear (only crazy folk aren't afraid) and environment can be mitigated with training and practice.  However, all training and practice must accept the realism of the weapon's limitiations.  If one is going to solely carry a five-round single-action handgun which is time-consuming to reload and not designed for long-range accuracy, learning to get the most operational value out of the five rounds should be the goal.  After all, a quicky-emptied handgun is just a steel rock to throw.

[Canoeal]

I've been attempting to perfect my shooting speed with my NAA mini but I cannot overcome the single action aspect and the fastest that I can accurately shoot all 5 rounds is about 3.1-3.5 seconds. Given the small caliber I figured it's probably best to fire 2 or 3 rounds at your assailant. However, given the fact that it's single action and therefore needs to be cocked before every shot would you guys consider the NAA mini as a weapon to use against an assailant carrying only a knife, bat, broken glass bottle, ect. or would you guys consider the NAA mini as a suitable weapon to use against an assailant carrying a gun? I know that carrying a large caliber firearm would be the way to go but if the NAA mini was all you had against an assailant armed with a gun would you guys feel confident engaging the assailant with the NAA mini or would you rather try to make a run for it or comply with the assailant's demands because using the NAA mini against an assailant carrying a gun is more likely to get you killed than help you?

As the NAA mini is all I usually have on me, I train and practice with it - not to see how fast I can discharge five rounds, but how cleanly I can unholster it,  obtain a firing position, accurately fire the first shot, accurately fire the second shot and then assess the results.  The goal is to neutralize the threat without causing collateral harm, not "throw maximum lead" downrange and end up three seconds later holding a five-ounce steel rock for subsequent defense.

Back in the old days one of the main training principles was fire discipline - the more rounds rapidly fired, the less the potential of accurate hits.  A well-placed first round followed by a well-placed second round was the training goal.  Even with fully automatic hand-held weapons,  a three-round burst was all that one could expect to have target accuracy.

Stress, adrenal-rush, fear (only crazy folk aren't afraid) and environment can be mitigated with training and practice.  However, all training and practice must accept the realism of the weapon's limitations.  If one is going to solely carry a five-round single-action handgun which is time-consuming to reload and not designed for long-range accuracy, learning to get the most operational value out of the five rounds should be the goal.  After all, a quicky-emptied handgun is just a steel rock to throw.

Steve;
I second your thoughts. Part of the reason I chose the BW; sights to use, grips sized to hold onto, and a practical length barrel; all aid in a little bit of accuracy, for the one or two shots you might get. Yes, they are small guns in a small caliber, but I still want the best I can get for the trade off. Yes, in 22 mag of course.

[LHB]

I still want to know how many of the big bore, big mag taticool tomimes have ever been in a real gun fight, and shot someone.   I was told in my CCW class, that if you have to use the gun, you better be able to prove that you REALLY felt that your life REALLY was in danger, and the situation better support, and 20 yards away is not life threating.

Have a current story in the area of two young men, intoxicated, who rolled their pickup about 300 yards from a farm house.  Farmer went out to investigate, taking a flashlight and his pistol.   Driver wanted to pick a fight, other man said he had been trying to have a fight all night.  Farmer is reported to have yelled, " Get your hands off me, "   He fired one shot, into thigh, femoral artery, dead in seven minutes.   Sheriff would not arrest, Grand Jury would not indict, but assistant states attorney. (who is running for election this fall ) has filed first degree murder charges against the farmer, and the mother of "the poor boy ' is filing wrongful death suit.

[WECSOG]

I once left a comment on a youtube video, where I quoted Col. Jeff Cooper saying he didn't think the ability of a sidearm to carry that many rounds was of any real advantage.  You should have heard the howls of derision. According to some of the respondents, only a complete moron would walk to the mailbox with less than 13 rounds in their gun and an additional 26 rounds in spare mags. 

[billmeek]

I must be a moron as I only carry 13 in my primary, a spare mag of 12, and a backup NAA with 5.  I'm 9 rounds short.

Of course Jeff Copper would not approve of either pistol (9mm and 22 mag) as neither caliber starts with a '4'.

[cfsharry]

Make that two Morons Bill. Don't have enough round through the 365 yet to make it my primary carry but do carry two Micro 9s and two extra seven round mags.
Am getting kind of tired of hearing a .22 short can kill. Of course it can but I tell you true; if anyone tries to take me down I hope they try it with a single action .22 short mini.
All else being equal, bigger holes are better than small ones.

[LHB]

There still needs to be a little common since involved in how much ammo is needed.  After all, remember that you need one loaded thirty round mag for your AR for each minute that it could take for back up to arrive, so if you live in the country 32 miles from the county seat, like my nephew on the home farm, you need 32 mags, and 960 rounds of ammo.

As my neighbor says, "In the 22 years I worked the slaughter floor in the locker plant, I never had to shoot a beef or a hog a second time."

[riadat]

It just got cold here so my favorite carry method, front coat pocket, just kicked in.

J-frame in front coat pocket disappears and you can put your hands in your pockets and aim and shoot through the coat if need be since hammerless.

Number of shots is kind of a mission thing.

Private citizens aren't really goal oriented for stopping active shooters.

Their main goal is to break contact.

Shoot someone and they run or you run.

I personally have 3 options-- mini in pants pocket, j-frame in coat pocket, rifle in trunk of car.

Also when i carry just a mini, my reload is a buck knife.  If i shoot 5 from my mini, i would then switch to my buck knife.

this is getting kind of long winded now but-- if you read real life accounts of self defense scenarios, every once in awhile you do need something more.


One story i read in a book called i think "thank God i had a gun" this guy was in a hotel with his kid and 2 men broke in.  He had his 45 on the bed and grabbed it and basically shot the gun empty.  He killed one of the perps, the other ran out and died later.  But this thing ended up being just a chaotic melee where he got one of his fingers bitten off, where there was bullets flying around and grappeling and what kind of craziness.  Had that been a mini, i could easily see that scenario ending up with a knife back up or being beat up or knocked out even with good hits.  Similar scenarios with 2 dogs attacking-- happened to me before with them attacking my dog-- could be just you in a park somewhere.

Wow that was long winded. 

[Uncle_Lee]

I would rather walk away from trouble with extra ammo than to be found dead with an empty gun.

[WECSOG]

Lots of people have been found dead with a nearly full magazine in their gun, too.  Even with a 5 round revolver, there is no guarantee of living long enough to fire all 5.

I think it was cb151 who recounted being in a restaurant with a bunch of guys, having a conversation like this. So he challenged everyone to produce their carry gun. He pulled out his NAA, which had a 5-round greater capacity than anyone else... because everyone else had left their "carry gun" in their vehicle.

[SteveZ-FL]

This "how much ammo"  and "size" debate all boils down to threat assessment and what is prudent to mitigate the assessed threat.  That's an individual call based on several factors.  Carry choices are not "one size fits all."

For me, living in a fairly quiet, well patrolled, not too densely populated and electronically monitored subtropical community, the threat is minimal.  Even the bordering communities are relatively mild, so the "mini carry" (NAA or Baby Browning) during daylight hours seems appropriate.   During nighttime hours, the assessment shifts somewhat, resulting in the KelTec 32 or Taurus PT-25 often taking the lead.  Heavier carry in this subtropical environment needs a much greater threat assessment to justify the wardrobe adjustment to keep the carry concealed and comfortable.

In others' environments and climates, the threat assessment can be radically different.  If I lived in a major city, different climate and/or area with a significant crime history, my carry choice(s) would change accordingly.  That would be logical. 

In the end, the mini - whether primary or backup - has a role and fills it (to me, anyway) admirably.  After many years of training and practice with a few minis, I can't see eliminating them in the future.

[Uncle_Lee]

Yep, what ever makes you feel good.

[billmeek]

One of the reasons I carry a spare 12-round mag is that I have it loaded with practice ammo (Federal American Eagle) rather than what I have loaded in the pistol (Hornady Critical Defense).  So if I'm somewhere (i.e. friends house or the range) and want to fire a few practice rounds or let someone else try out the P365 (which still happens often), I drop the mag, empty the chamber, and swap out mags.  I carry a box of spare practice ammo in both vehicles, but not spares of the Critical Defense.

That reminds me... I need to haul a mag worth of Critical Defense to the range. I like to shoot my carry ammo every now and then a "refresh" my carry loads.

[RogueTS1]

Awe ............. c'mon guys. We all know that if one is not carrying a Mac 10, or something similar, one is way under gunned.   

I know Uncle Lee packs two of them strapped to his suspenders. 

[Uncle_Lee]

Two of them and 8 30 round magazines.....

[top dog]

Uncle Lee,
To quote you:  Photos!!!!!

                                                    Top Dog

[Uncle_Lee]

Uncle Lee,
To quote you:  Photos!!!!!

                                                    Top Dog

That is just a dream...

[top dog]

Uncle Lee,
Maybe just a dream,but what a dream that was!!!!

                                          Top Dog