NAA Mini LR or Baby Browning

[Warthog]

Yeah, Taurus, but then you already know how I feel about those and I know many of you have had much better luck with them I ever had so good on all of you.

I still would rather have a knife than a .25ACP of ANY kind as my PD weapon.  I have had a lot of them too, Astras, a couple of Baby Brownings too and other Spanish rip offs when the patent passed.  They were fun at the range and I did reload the round often, those little bullets drove me nutty though.

[adp3]

The advantage that I see of the .25 ACP over the .22 rimfires is more reliable priming. I cannot remember the last time that I had a centerfire primer dud but it was probably over 30 years ago. With rimfires I have a dud or three every year. A .25 ACP mini would certainly get my attention in the Black Widow platform with XS sights.  The .25 is semi-rimmed so it easily works in revolvers as well as semi-autos.

Best Regards,
ADP3

[Warthog]

Well, I haven't had a dud rimfire for a very long time.  Of course I haven't needed to try any recent production rimfires yet, I guess I may have some once that starts.

Until then, a 25acp to me says you are a pimp who thinks he knows guns and if I have my heavy leather riding jacket on, watch out.  A guy with a 25acp once shot me with his and I had my riding jacket on because I was riding my HD at the time.  The bullet didn't penetrate my jacket and went to beating the guy to a pulp.

I was a lot younger then, now as a devout Christian I probably would have simply left the place and let him have his way.

[riadat]

The PT -25 Taurus is perfectly safe with a round in the chamber and the safety OFF. It's a double action only gun with an inertial firing pin.

That is how I carry my bobcat.  It just doesn't usually make the cut as I have a 340pd at the same weight.  5 158 grain bullets vs 9 50 grain bullets is a decision.  I trust revolvers more and shoot them pretty well.  But my bobcat has never failed to fire and feed so long as you clean it once in awhile.


Baby browning was extremely reliable as well.  Everything comes down to personal choice.

[SteveZ-FL]

The question whether a .22 (NAA mini) or .25 (Baby Browning or similar) caliber is an effective SD carry seems to creep into many discussions.  Carrying a .22 or .25 requires (to me, anyway) a different approach to SD than with the larger calibers.  It goes with the realization that how one would deploy a more powerful .38 or higher won't necessarily work with any .2x caliber handgun.  With the .3+ calibers, aiming center-of-mass is the norm.  With the .2x calibers, especially versus larger and heavy-dressed folk, the .2x caliber "stopping power" may indeed be less than hoped when center-of-mass is the target.

A lot of discussion regarding the accuracy of NAA minis (and similar sized firearms) is already in the archives.  My limited experience has me "NAA comfortable" with pie-plate sized targets within 10 yards.  Recognizing that probable SD engagement with .2x caliber handguns will be within 10 yards and the limited energy that .2x caliber rounds have when fired from short-barrel handguns, the traditional center-of-mass tactic may be inappropriate (again, to me) based on who or what the threat is.  The areas above and below center-of-mass may be more effective targets for .2x caliber handguns.

My unscientific experience is that few folk actually train and practice for SD situations with their carry handguns.  Folk may go to the range, buy a sexy target and blow holes through it while standing securely and confidently in a semi-enclosed slot, calling that experience "training" and "practice."  I don't expect any SD threat to occur from the other end of the range, so it seems inappropriate to regard such range time as true SD  "training' and "practice."  The same goes for shot placement.  The range is not a simulated SD environnent, and expecting range time will fully hone SD skills is wishful thinking.

Firing a round or two .2x caliber short-barrel at center-of-mass against a bad guy leathered-up and/or overtly developed or hopped up may indeed prove ineffective.  If the shooter is skilled enough at "pie plate or better" accuracy through training in more-or-less SD situations, combined with targeting elsewhere than center-of-mass, that .2x caliber handgun may be looked at with more respect.  There's a lot of the human body not contained in the "neck-down and just-above-groin-up" range that more than fills a pie-plate-sized view within 10 yards or closer. 

I feel comfortable with either or both the NAA mini or Baby Browning for "routine" SD carry.  That's because the hardware's limitations, especially regarding center-of-mass effectivity, have been incorporated into my training and practice.  I respect these handguns and associated ammunition for what they are and what they can reasonably accomplish if operated within their designed capabilities.  I never expected my old motorcycle to have the payload of my SUV, and see the ".22 & .25 caliber` situation in the same perspective. 

[heyjoe]

most of my range time i spend other than target shooting, with point shooting or minimal use of the front site and firing relatively rapidly. i also practice starting to fire just after my gun clears leather on the way up to center mass. in other words im practicing for what i would expect to have to do in a desperate real self defense situation.

[SteveZ-FL]

most of my range time i spend other than target shooting, with point shooting or minimal use of the front site and firing relatively rapidly. i also practice starting to fire just after my gun clears leather on the way up to center mass. in other words im practicing for what i would expect to have to do in a desperate real self defense situation.

HeyJoe, way to go!  Was just at the range the other day and what I saw was downright comical.  It's too bad more folks don't use their range time for more thsn creating brass litter.  I can appreciate the folk who are into precision target shooting, but what I've been seeing lately is just noise-making and paper-punching, followed by smugness on how prepared they are for "the streets." 

Back to the thread's theme...for folk using Baby Brownings or equivalent, what ammunition are you using?  My mags are loaded alternately with Fiocchi FMJ and JHP.

[Honky Tonk Man]

Sadly, around here there are no ranges I'm aware of that allow fast-draw shooting.  To get that kind of practice we have to go out in the woods.  That's one of the reasons I like camping so much.  I think it's lawyer driven. 

[billmeek]

It may be lawyer-driven, but I think it's understandable considering the damage I've seen at the local indoor range.  The newly painted ceiling had pistol dings no more than 15 feet out within a few days.  The tile floor was shot behind the firing line... by someone in law enforcement.  I can only imagine the additional risk allowing these same people to practice combat draw on the range.

[bearcatter]

Back to the thread's theme...for folk using Baby Brownings or equivalent, what ammunition are you using?  My mags are loaded alternately with Fiocchi FMJ and JHP.

If you do a little research, you'll find that with pocket guns below .380, hollow points expand very little if any, and penetrate a lot less than FMJ.  In my Guardian 32, I just carry standard FMJ, which does at least give 12-14 inch penetraion, within FBI recommendations.

[LHB]

Some time ago, someone posted here that they were making a house call for work, and noticed a NAA mini on the table, and got to talking with the customer about minis.   The customer asked it the poster had ever shot anyone with his mini, to which the reply was no.  The customer then related how he had shot a punk at a neighborhood playground as the punk was advancing on him.   He said that he fired one shot of 22 mag, which broke the pelvis, and instant incapacitation.   If I remember right, punk spent over a year in therapy, and a couple of years later was killed in a drug deal gone bad.

[bill_deshivs]

You can put out 7 rounds from the Browning in the time it takes to fire one or two shots from a mini revolver, with much more control.

[OV-1D]

  I really only carry a mini for a " SURPRISE " weapon , look what I got while your sticking it up their nose or in their ear . All honesty just the bang will undue most situations only because 99% of jacka*es are cowards , its the drugged out ones to really worry about and they are pretty easy to spot even farther away  .

[SteveZ-FL]

Back to the thread's theme...for folk using Baby Brownings or equivalent, what ammunition are you using?  My mags are loaded alternately with Fiocchi FMJ and JHP.

If you do a little research, you'll find that with pocket guns below .380, hollow points expand very little if any, and penetrate a lot less than FMJ.  In my Guardian 32, I just carry standard FMJ, which does at least give 12-14 inch penetraion, within FBI recommendations.

The reason for the alterate-round loading is ...1) have a fair amount of FMJ and JHP, and all fire cleanly; and 2) regardless of expansion the FMJ and JHP rounds travel at different velocities, and one is never fully sure which may be the better round against a particular target until the event happens.   As the BB is a reliable semi-auto, being able to double-tap cleanly using one of each, the guesswork about which is the better choice is avoided.  I believe in research and others' gelatin and "pork roast" penetration tests, but research and field application can provide surprising differences.  If one can "cover all bases" through thoughtful application, why not?

[RogueTS1]

Unload a magazine of 6.35mm into a baddie, let's say in the crotch, and then one should be able to finish said baddie off at their leisure and most likely with a very serious physical advantage. 

[bearcatter]

The reason for the alterate-round loading....regardless of expansion the FMJ and JHP rounds travel at different velocities.....If one can "cover all bases" through thoughtful application, why not?

The difference between your two Fiocchi loads is 100 fps, no difference in muzzle velocity.

Unload a magazine of 6.35mm into a baddie, let's say in the crotch, and then one should be able to finish said baddie off at their leisure and most likely with a very serious physical advantage.

Shoot a bad guy six times, then "finish said baddie off" ? Try explaining all that to the local DA...

[RogueTS1]

Unload a magazine of 6.35mm into a baddie, let's say in the crotch, and then one should be able to finish said baddie off at their leisure and most likely with a very serious physical advantage.

Shoot a bad guy six times, then "finish said baddie off" ? Try explaining all that to the local DA...
[/quote]

Not a problem. That is in reference to a 6.35mm not stopping a baddie. If a baddie is shot with a small caliber handgun, or a large caliber handgun for that matter, and he is still in the fight ----------------------> one should probably continue to fight, aka, "finish said baddie off." No prosecutor is going to have a problem with somebody firing more shots or engaging in hand to hand with a baddie when he is still in the fight and a threat.

[SteveZ-FL]

The difference between your two Fiocchi loads is 100 fps, no difference in muzzle velocity.

True, and one is 35grams and the other 50grams.  It's a personal choice.  The reasons may be more intuitive (e.g., "gut feeling") than logical, but I've found that trusting my intuition is not a bad thng.  It's kept me around for over seven decades when some logical choices would have me being a memory now. 

[bearcatter]

The difference between your two Fiocchi loads is 100 fps, no difference in muzzle velocity.

True, and one is 35grams and the other 50grams.  It's a personal choice.  The reasons may be more intuitive (e.g., "gut feeling") than logical, but I've found that trusting my intuition is not a bad thng.  It's kept me around for over seven decades when some logical choices would have me being a memory now.

It works for you, and that's the main thing, being comfortable with what you carry. I know a guy who carries a S&W snub, and his first two rounds are blanks, as "warning shots". That only leaves three good rounds. Not for me, but it may serve him well some day.

[RogueTS1]

There was a military guy that dropped in on one of the other Forums, I believe it was the Walther Forum, before he redeployed back to the sandbox. He was looking for a Baby Browning to replace his old one. He stated that it had saved his life on one occasion when a baddie with an AK had him cornered in a room and his M4 was out of reach or run out of ammo (something to that degree.)

He stated he used some military issued solid core penetrater (something to that effect) out of a BB kept attached inside his plate carrier. He emptied the mag into the baddie's chest and he went down like a sack of potatoes.

[riadat]

The ballistics of 25 acp in fmj are about perfect for meeting the min penetration.  They also do strange things in ballistics gel, and I assume other things.

I don't own any hollow point 25 acp just various brands of fmj and that is what i carry if and when i carry my 25

[Honky Tonk Man]

BBs were always in the back of my mind for a "someday" gun purchase.  You guys are big time enablers.  What would one in good condition cost these days?  Anything I'd need to look for, or look out for?  I'm always impressed at the knowledge you guys have about antique firearms.  Also, I'm asking for Uncle Lee, how about some pictures?  There are no BB pics on this thread. 

[Uncle_Lee]

I don't own any Baby Brownings.
But I do own some copies.

Iver Johnson & Bauer


Iver Johnson

[Honky Tonk Man]

Thanks Uncle Lee.  I meant for others to supply pictures for your benefit (and mine).  You are a man that leads by example.  I like that. 

[SteveZ-FL]

BBs were always in the back of my mind for a "someday" gun purchase.  You guys are big time enablers.  What would one in good condition cost these days?  Anything I'd need to look for, or look out for?  I'm always impressed at the knowledge you guys have about antique firearms.  Also, I'm asking for Uncle Lee, how about some pictures?  There are no BB pics on this thread.

The price for a BB is all over the scale, depending on condition and age.  I've seen them in the $200+ range clear up to $850.   Even the new Precision Small Arms copies range from $700-1,100.  Honestly, I have my BB because it's a legacy item.  I don't think I'd pay the "market rate" for one in top condition.  If one has good gunsmith skills snd parts access, buying one as a reclaimation project may be worthwhile.

[bill_deshivs]

Uncle Lee- your Bauer is a Browning copy.
Your Iver Johnson is a Bernardelli copy-which is a copy of the Walther model 9.
Nice guns.

[RogueTS1]

Beautiful Uncle Lee. I know I say that every time I see them but they are and that is the way I feel. Beautiful.

[bill_deshivs]

Here's mine. I threw a .22 short/long  and a .25 Bernardelli in for good measure.

[Honky Tonk Man]

Nice collection Bill!  Do you carry any of them? 

[miker]

SteveZ - FMJ Fiocchi here, because it worked the best in everything. Tried Fiocchi, Herters, Aguila, Magtech, Federal, and Sell/Bell.

miker

[SteveZ-FL]

SteveZ - FMJ Fiocchi here, because it worked the best in everything. Tried Fiocchi, Herters, Aguila, Magtech, Federal, and Sell/Bell.

miker

Am also satisfied with Fiocchi.  The BB seems to eat just about everything with gusto.

[top dog]

Warty,
You reloaded for the 25 acp???  Did you use tweezers and count out the grains of powder???

That must have been an exercise in futility!!!

                                                                                          Top Dog

[bill_deshivs]

Honky Tonk Man-
I carried the lightweight Browning many years ago. Now, I carry a Keltec P32.

[Honky Tonk Man]

Thanks Bill. 

[top dog]

Although I own a Colt .25ACP vest pistol,I use either my Black Widow or Ruger LCP for my EDC.

I have mixed feeling about having a loaded round in the chamber of the Colt. Even with the safety on,I do not feel at all comfortable with it.

                                                                                                                 Top Dog