My solution to throwing powder charges for the NAA Super Companion

[1858Fan]

Well, I don't even have my Super Companion yet (NAA says it should ship toward the end of the month), but I think I've already solved what seems like will be a minor annoyance with the gun - measuring the powder charge and getting it into the chambers.

With my 1858 Remington New Army replicas I use the Traditions Deluxe Tubular Powder Flask to charge the chambers. I'm sure most of you have used one of these on full size guns, but for those who haven't, you fill it with 3F powder, cover the spout with your index finger, point it at the ground, push the button, shake it a couple times, release the button, point it in the air, look to see the spout is full, and then dump it into a chamber. Repeat 5 more times. It sounds like a lot of steps, but it takes only seconds to do.

I wanted something similar to fill the tiny chambers of the NAA Super Companion. I don't like the idea of having to have a dipper and a funnel and a little jar of powder, etc. Too many accouterments for what should be a simple task.

In searching around for a tiny version of the Traditions Deluxe Tubular Powder Flask I found something very close - the Traditions Flintlock Pan Primer. It's intended for putting 4F powder in the pan of a flintlock. It's nearly perfect except it is set to meter a 3 grain charge of 4F powder, and for the Super Companion we need a 4 grain charge. I figured I could probably just extend the spout a bit to get this to throw 4 grains. I was right.

I spent a little time in SolidWorks (CAD) this morning and designed the little extension. Then I went to the hobby shop and bought some 3/16" brass dowel. Then I went to my machine shop and built the little bugger. As is usually the case, setup and fixturing took longer than the machining did. The result is about perfect.

The way you use it is very similar to the Traditions Tubular Flask. You cover the spout with your index finger, point the spout at the floor, press the spout in (which opens the flow), shake it a couple times (to make sure the spout fills), release the spout (but keep the opening covered with your finger), and then point the spout in the air so you can see that it filled. Again, it sounds like a lot of steps but if you've ever done it with the full size tubular flask you know it just takes a second.

I did some test throws with it and it is throwing 4.1 grains of Goex 4F right now. If I shorten it just a little I can get it right to 4 grains but I want to wait until I actually have the gun and see where this powder charge comes to when filling the chambers before I shorten my adapter.

Another bonus with the adapter is that it gives the tube a wider wall at the tip. The tip of the original tube on the Traditions Flintlock Pan Primer is pretty thin and kind of sharp. They didn't mean for it to be pressed with a finger, they meant for it to be pressed into the metal pan of a flintlock. My little tube extension makes pressing the tip against your finger no longer painful.

The tip of the extension is 3/16" (.1875") in diameter so I think it should be able to pour nicely into the 22 caliber holes of the Super Companion chambers.

For those of you with a Companion (LR) instead of the the Super Companion (Magnum), refitting one of these pan primers for your purposes is even easier. You just need to shorten the tube on the pan primer until it throws 2.5 grains of 4F instead of 3 grains of 4F.

Anyway, I am VERY happy with my solution to this problem. Now I just need the gun so I can put it to use.

Any of you with Companions or Super Companions, please let me know your thoughts.

P.S. As to how to attach the extension to the tube, there are plenty of options. I machined the inner diameter of the top part of the extension (the part that slips over the existing tube) to be EXACTLY the same diameter as the tube so mine is a decent friction fit as is. I probably will just put the tiniest dab of some sort of lightweight glue on it to keep it from falling off and getting lost. I want the extension to be removable in case I ever have a reason to want to disassemble the spout on the pan primer. If you don't care about ever disassembling the spout on the pan primer you could simply solder the extension on.

P.P.S. The measurements in the drawing seem very odd because most of them were actually in millimeters and converted to inches. This is because the desired change in volume was in cubic centimeters and thus the math on tube length was easiest to do in millimeters. The inner diameter of the original spout seems to be right about 1/8"  (0.125") so that what I made the ID of the extension as well (the ID of the top part being 0.153" to slip over the OD of the original spout which is also 0.153").

P.P.P.S. Sorry this was so long. A lot of words for really just a little brass extension to an existing product, utilized for a new purpose.

[1858Fan]

I'd love to post a picture of the powder throw next to my Super Companion for scale, but since I don't have my Super Companion yet here's a picture of it next to my NAA .22 Magnum for scale.

[1858Fan]

OK, now that I'm out of the probationary period I can post pics without them going into a moderator approval queue. My posts had been approved but the pics weren't, and those posts were useless without the pics (in my opinion) so I went in and removed the pics and then added them back in. Much better now. 

[linux_author]

very interesting and looks handy for the BP folks...

how many charges would you expect to get out of the flintlock flask?

willie
on the Gulf of Mexico

[1858Fan]

Good question! I filled the flask with powder up to the threads (as far as you can fill it and still screw the spout assembly back on) and then dumped it on my grain scale. Looks like she holds right about 70 grains of 4F. For a Super Companion shooter that's 17 shots, and for a Companion shooter that's 28 shots.

If I planned to shoot more than 3 cylinders worth (15 shots) I think I'd just have 2 or 3 of these already filled with powder so I wouldn't have to mess with loading them from the bulk can of powder and could keep things simple and fun. Now that I know it works and have more or less settled on the length of the extension spout I'm going to go back to the shop and make a couple more spout extensions.

[lefty dude]

Very nice, keep us informed.

[pietro]

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Nice work/set-up !  . 

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[gunfitrip]

I did the exact same for my Super Companion years back because I would carry the Companion and would take it to the ranch to shoot.  I also used a small silver perfume flask I bought for my mother when I was young. I'd fill it with 4f and it would load quite a few rounds.  I have never seen how many shots you can get from the primer flask but it's a lot.  I had to grind off some of the nozzle end to throw the correct amount of powder.

[Uncle_Lee]

I had a little Freedom Arms black powder revolver and used one of those flintlock flasks for it.
I just cut down the end of the tube until I got the right amount when I put my finger over the end and pushed it in. If I wasn't careful it would cut a little circle in my finger.

[1858Fan]

I did the exact same for my Super Companion years back because I would carry the Companion and would take it to the ranch to shoot.  I also used a small silver perfume flask I bought for my mother when I was young. I'd fill it with 4f and it would load quite a few rounds.  I have never seen how many shots you can get from the primer flask but it's a lot.  I had to grind off some of the nozzle end to throw the correct amount of powder.

I had a little Freedom Arms black powder revolver and used one of those flintlock flasks for it.
I just cut down the end of the tube until I got the right amount when I put my finger over the end and pushed it in. If I wasn't careful it would cut a little circle in my finger.

Yep, if you have the "LR" sized cap and ball mini revolver then you need to go the other direction. Instead of adding to the spout you need to remove a bit from the spout until it throws 2 or 2.5 grains (whatever your particular gun needs). The wall of the original spout on these pan primers is pretty thin, and therefore sharp, and not so comfortable to press with your fingertip. I think if I had an "LR" sized Companion I'd probably shorten the spout a little shorter than necessary and then add a really short extension to it just to get the comfort benefit of the thicker wall of the extension.

[1858Fan]

Another side note - I've decided to "glue" the extension on using a little clear fingernail polish. That way there's no chance of it falling off, but if I need to remove the extension to disassemble the spout I can take it off with a little acetone. I think this is better than soldering it on which would make it really difficult if the spout/valve assembly ever needed to be disassembled for cleaning.

[gunfitrip]

I agree with Uncle Lee.  I had to shorten my nozzle for the correct amount for the Super Companion.  I bought one of the very first issue Super Companions one of around 77 or 79 made.  It had real pearl grips, black finish on top, bottom, cylinder flutes.  I shot it extensively and even delved into smokeless.  The problem with smokeless is the cylinder pin will actually bend at the back area where it goes into the frame.  Additionally, I finally had a catastrophic failure when one smokeless load did not ignite, leaving the bullet in the barrel.  I did not notice and when the next round went off, it blew the bottom of the barrel open where the cylinder pin locks into barrel, and sheered off the front of the cylinder pin. I DID notice when that round went off due to large report. I sent it back to NAA and Wayne did an outstanding job fixing it for me.  He high polished the revolver, put a new barrel ( I did pay for the barrel of course), and even put new black simulated pearl grips, and re shaped my front sight to hit point of aim. WHAT SERVICE!!!  i still am  impressed years later.  Needless to say, even though there are some reports of using smokeless, I suggest you don't.  If you want velocity 777 works pretty good.  If you want fun shooting just use FFFF.  I've got pounds of it.  It will outlast me, my kids, and grandkids. These are fun guns.  That's what I call them.  I do have an LR version also.  You can keep these loaded for extended periods of time without any failure to fire. They are very reliable too as far as ignition. Good luck with your new gun and enjoy! 

[1858Fan]

I had to shorten my nozzle for the correct amount for the Super Companion.

You had to shorten your nozzle for a Super Companion? Your pan primer must have thrown a bigger charge than the one I have does. The pan primer I got says it throws 3 grains of 4F, but the Super Companion needs 4 grains, hence my having to lengthen it. Or, you said you played with smokeless - if you were using the pan primer to throw smokeless you'd definitely have to shorten it.

I shot it extensively and even delved into smokeless.  The problem with smokeless is the cylinder pin will actually bend at the back area where it goes into the frame.  Additionally, I finally had a catastrophic failure when one smokeless load did not ignite, leaving the bullet in the barrel.  I did not notice and when the next round went off, it blew the bottom of the barrel open where the cylinder pin locks into barrel, and sheered off the front of the cylinder pin. I DID notice when that round went off due to large report.

Glad you weren't hurt - guns can be repaired/replaced. While I find the notion of using smokeless interesting I shoot these cap and ball guns for the "holy black" experience, so I'll be sticking with real 4F black powder. My LGS had Goex 4F in stock and I might order a pound of Olde Eynsford 4F (also made by Goex) the next time I do a powder order as I really like the Olde Eynsford.

I sent it back to NAA and Wayne did an outstanding job fixing it for me.  He high polished the revolver, put a new barrel ( I did pay for the barrel of course), and even put new black simulated pearl grips, and re shaped my front sight to hit point of aim. WHAT SERVICE!!!  i still am  impressed years later.

Nice that they were able to fix it up for you. I'll be interested to see how the sights vs. point of impact are on the Super Companion when I get it. My 1858 was about an inch and a half low at 10 yards. I did the math to figure out how much to take off the front sight, chucked the gun in the mill, milled the front sight down that much, voila - now she hits perfect. I never did take a file and try to reshape the front blade to make it round again - I just left it flat on top. I guess it would look a little better if I did some file work on it, but it's not that noticeable now and I might just make it worse, not better.

Good luck with your new gun and enjoy!

Thanks! Eagerly awaiting the gun. Probably a couple more weeks until NAA has the next batch of them ready.

[1858Fan]

While waiting for the gun I've been just reading and crunching numbers. In doing so I believe I've come upon a discrepancy in NAA's materials.

The little yellow powder scoops that the Companion and Super Companion come with appear to be the Lee "dipper" scoops. The below assumes that Lee did not make a custom size scoop for NAA and the scoops NAA includes are standard Lee dippers.

The smallest Lee dipper is 0.17 cc. Lee's loading data says that 0.17 cc of 4F black powder is 2.5 grains. This matches with what the NAA directions say to load in the Companion. So far so good.

The next size of Lee dipper is 0.3 cc. Lee's loading data says that 0.3 cc of 4F black powder is 4.5 grains. The NAA manual says to load 4 grains (not 4.5) into the Super Companion. Somewhere on the net I found a chamber cutaway diagram of the NAA C&B Magnum and it too says powder volume should be 0.3 cc.

Given the above it would appear that the actual amount of powder that NAA intends you to load in the Super Companion is 4.5 grains per chamber, not 4.0 grains per chamber.

Has anyone ever weighed a charge of 4F that the yellow dipper that came with the Super Companion holds?

[gunfitrip]

Yes, I had to shorten the nozzle to throw the correct amount of Black powder.  I was thankful that I was not hurt or anyone with me (my Dad).  When you do get your pistol there are some things you need to do.  Don't put more powder than fills the chamber up to the shelve in the chamber. If you do, you won't be able to seat the bullet and it will get stuck on the forcing cone area.  The issue is not the gun blowing up, that won't happen.  But you can stop the cylinder from freely turning.  Always use Remington #11 caps as anything else will interfere with the cylinder rotating.  These guns are some of my favorites.  In Texas, cap and ball replicas are NOT firearms and hence NOT a handgun.  I don't worry too much about any of that as I got my carry permit. But I always feel more free when carrying black powder replicas as there are no laws weighing you down. 

[1858Fan]

Don't put more powder than fills the chamber up to the shelve in the chamber. If you do, you won't be able to seat the bullet and it will get stuck on the forcing cone area.  The issue is not the gun blowing up, that won't happen.  But you can stop the cylinder from freely turning.

I did some reading on the chamber design and it's pretty ingenious - more sophisticated than a normal cap and ball revo chamber. Unlike a normal revo this gun is designed for the powder to be uncompacted and sort of fluffy. That's why the chamber has a step it it. Powder should be below the step, then bullet goes on top, seated against the step. Attached below is a PDF that I found describing the chamber.

Always use Remington #11 caps as anything else will interfere with the cylinder rotating.

Yep, I bought Remington #11's just for this gun. I had some #11's but they were Winchester and since everyone here said "Remingtons only" so I got 500 of those.

These guns are some of my favorites.  In Texas, cap and ball replicas are NOT firearms and hence NOT a handgun.  I don't worry too much about any of that as I got my carry permit. But I always feel more free when carrying black powder replicas as there are no laws weighing you down.

Same here in Florida. Guns that use a primitive ignition system and don't fire fixed ammunition are not considered firearms. I too have my concealed carry permit, but there are some places you cannot legally carry on your concealed carry permit. But you'd still be legal to carry your cap and ball revolver since no permit is needed to carry that. Also, unlike Texas, Florida generally does not allow open carry of any firearms (with certain exceptions), But cap and ball revos aren't firearms, so one would be legal to open carry them if one were so inclined. I however am not so inclined.

[Rick_Jorgenson]

Than for all the info 1858Fan!

I have never shot BP and don't know a thing about it except what I have learned on this Forum.

I want one so I'm in "research mode" learning about them right now.

I can hardly wait! lol!!

Here's how it will go in my house...

Mrs. Gun Leather, "Did you buy another gun?"

Rick, with the new NAA box in hand, "Nope, it's not a firearm"

Mrs. Gun Leather, "Thats not what I asked you"  (She is a smart one!)

Rick, under has breath, "Dang it!", "Yes Honey, its a Black Powder NAA so not a firearm in Texas"   (even though we are in AZ, I'd try the Texas thing) 

[Bj]

I thought you (Rick) needed one of each NAA for making holsters, maybe more than one depending on how many holsters are being made for the same model at the same time.  Isn't it a business purchase?

[1858Fan]

I thought you (Rick) needed one of each NAA for making holsters, maybe more than one depending on how many holsters are being made for the same model at the same time.  Isn't it a business purchase?

If so, don't tell the Mrs. that the Super Companion will fit everything that the NAA .22 Magnum 1 5/8" will fit.   

[Rick_Jorgenson]

I thought you (Rick) needed one of each NAA for making holsters, maybe more than one depending on how many holsters are being made for the same model at the same time.  Isn't it a business purchase?

I like your line of thinking! 

The checking account will not keep up with my wants and desires 

Yep, I need them all!  And multiples of all!

I'll try the "Business Expense" thing on "Mrs. Gun Leather" to see if it flies!

She knows that they help make the money so she is really good about my purchases. (she's a keeper!)

[autofull]

great idea there. we always made one out of a 22short shell with a handle soldered to it. we all were a bit steady of hand back then though.

[1858Fan]

When I came up with the original dimensions of my extension tube I based it on the NAA manual saying to load the Super Companion with 4 grains of 4F black powder. I now know that's not quite right as the scoop that comes with the Super Companion is 0.3 cubic centimeters which is going to throw a charge of about 4.5 grains of 4F black powder.

Since I want my modified flintlock pan primer to throw the same charge as the scoop that comes with the Super Companion I re-did all the math and came up with the proper length extension required to make the Traditions flintlock pan primer throw 0.3 cc's of 4F.

I made a blueprint of the extension for anybody who wants to make their own and have attached it below as a jpeg and as a PDF.

Here are the steps I used:

• Cut off a piece of 3/16" brass rod that is a bit longer than 14mm (around 0.6 inches should do)
• Finish the piece of brass rod so the ends are flat and square and the piece is right at 14mm long (0.5512")
• Fix the piece of brass rod so it's perfectly vertical
• Centered on the brass rod, drill a hole with a diameter of 0.153" to a depth of 0.2428" (for 118 degree point angle drill bit - if you're using a 135 degree point angle drill bit the depth would need to be different). In my drill bit set the #23 drill was exactly 0.153" so that's what I used.
• In the exact same location drill a hole with a diameter of 0.125" (1/8" drill) all the way through.

That's it. Of course if you don't have a mill I think this would be nearly impossible - but maybe someone will prove me wrong on that.

Once added to the Traditions flintlock pan primer mine throws right at 0.3 cc's of Goex 4F black powder (which indeed weighs in at 4.5 grains just like Lee's data said it would).

[Warthog]

Cool, thanks 1858Fan!  I have some of these I use for my flintlocks as well as for my caplocks so this is good info for me.  I will look into doing this myself as I can work metal, just not wood.  Been using one of those tubes for throwing the powder for my Super Companion for a while now.  So THANKS again!

I also have a little 32 caliber stick gonne, which is sort of fun to shoot though it isn't very accurate since it is a smooth bore.  Can't find the pic of that one....