22lr or 22mag out of a Pug

[WarrenW]

I have watched several ballistic gel test for the Pug on YouTube. Most show the 22lr to mushroom nicely but the 22mag seems to have a hard jacket that doesn't allow it to expand at Pug velocities. So my question is, would it be better to carry good 22lr's in the Pug for self defense instead of 22mag?

[pennsy]

Check out the Gold Dot Short Barrel 22 mag. Expansion and penetration. The 22  lr suffer from under penetration if they expand.Same problem with .380 in short barrels but marginally better.

[bearcatter]

I wonder how hyper .22LR does, like Velocitors? They supposedly have a Gold Dot cavity. Still 40 grains, and 22% more energy.

[Warthog]

Check out the Gold Dot Short Barrel 22 mag. Expansion and penetration. The 22  lr suffer from under penetration if they expand.Same problem with .380 in short barrels but marginally better.

THIS is what I use on my Magnums, I bought a few cases of them during the Christmas and Post Christmas sales.  For plinking I use the CCI's with the flat tip and complete copper cover, they are good for my lever actions too so they are my target plinking round.  Again, I bought two cases of those and keep them around, the Academy nearby keeps them in stock so now and then I grab a box or two to keep the replenished as they are used.

[theysayimnotme]

Why do you want expansion? As long as the bullet does not exit I tend to believe deeper penetration is to be preferred. The Pug barrel is so short I suspect all you really get from the mag is more noise. The LR being shorter in effect has a slighter greater  barrel length. I, as a minority of one, fail to see the appeal of the Pug.

[Dinadan]

I like my Pug, but Theysayimnotme has a point about the short length of the Pug barrel. We have discussed this a few times before, and if I recall correctly the best magnums out of a Pug have just a bit more velocity than the best LR rounds of the same weight. You can call me nuts if you want, but over the years I have switched to mostly carrying LR in all my Minis. Velocitors are my round of choice.

[billmeek]

A slightly longer barrel has a relatively small increase in velocity and energy.  See the 1-inch barreled Pug vs the 1.5-inch barreled Bug Out II using Speer Gold Dot - Short barrel 22 WMR:

http://naaminis.com/smf/index.php?topic=15168.0 

[Canoeal]

Why do you want expansion? As long as the bullet does not exit I tend to believe deeper penetration is to be preferred. The Pug barrel is so short I suspect all you really get from the mag is more noise. The LR being shorter in effect has a slighter greater  barrel length. I, as a minority of one, fail to see the appeal of the Pug.

I prefer longer barrels too. BW is mine.

[top dog]

Definitely the Magnum out of the PUG. If you want something a bit larger,then the Black Widow is pretty much the way to go.

Here's a test that you can do;
Take a gallon plastic milk jug and fill it with warm water (you will see why I say warm water in a bit)

Place it on a safe backstop and take your PUG with your favorite 22 mag load.


Place the muzzle about 2-3 inches from the plastic milk jug and touch the round off.

You will see why I said warm water.

The expanding gases have an enormous effect!!!

                                                                                            Top Dog

[Canoeal]

Better yet, take  3 or 4 milk jugs, full of water, and shoot them from 5 ft, and see where the bullet stops and it's condition. Then do it with the 22 mag. See if there is a difference. Your test, your results. Just sayin' don't take anyone's opinion, when you can see for yourself.

[theysayimnotme]

Definitely the Magnum out of the PUG. If you want something a bit larger,then the Black Widow is pretty much the way to go.

Here's a test that you can do;
Take a gallon plastic milk jug and fill it with warm water (you will see why I say warm water in a bit)

Place it on a safe backstop and take your PUG with your favorite 22 mag load.


Place the muzzle about 2-3 inches from the plastic milk jug and touch the round off.

You will see why I said warm water.

The expanding gases have an enormous effect!!!

                                                                                            Top Dog

That's just the wasted muzzle blast. Note I did say there would be more noise. It might be a useful test at five feet.

[Boisesteve]

theysayimnotme has a 'point', and I agree with his penetration vs expansion logic.  The .22LR is a low-energy round, and the 22mag only slightly more. I think of it as a 22 caliber sharpened screwdriver being used for self defense. I want it to punch the deepest hole possible and hit something vital if I ever have to use it to defend myself or a loved one.  I'd use a 12" sharpened screwdriver that'd reach in and puncture an important part, not a 3" stubby screwdriver that would make a hole but wouldn't reach in as far.
The great part of this debate is there's no really wrong answer, unless you consider going unarmed an answer, which I don't.
Also, this line of logic informs my choice of carry ammo:  CCI 22mag, 30 grain, with sharp-pointed plastic tip bullet. 
Steve in Boise

[WarrenW]

I like Canoeal's idea of the water jugs at 5 ft but I might have to put that off for a while because it's 12 degrees outside right now. I also agree that the magnum rounds seem to only add more noise. My Pug handles the 22lr without any issues but I have had light primmer strikes when using 22 mag rounds.

[top dog]

Take a look at back in 1981 when some clown with a POS Ruhr-Krupp  22lr revolver in less than three seconds had pretty well almost killed President Reagan,and three other people.  Tunnel Rats in Vietnam used suppressed HS Pistols in 22lr.

I still would give the nod to the 22 magnum but still have a lot of respect for the LR round.


                                                                                                           Top Dog

[Canoeal]

I give you the tests for the .22mag done By Richard Mann for American rifleman for the 22 Mag. I will find a similar test for 22lr ASAP.
The 1 inch gun tested was in fact a Pug.

[Canoeal]

A second set of tests of the 22 mag pug:

http://beckertactical.blogspot.com/2013/05/22-magnum-ammo-tests.html

[Canoeal]

Not the Pug, and not the head to head match-up I wanted (I would have prefered a convertible) but this was interesting...

https://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-122-product-evaluation-the-north-american-arms-mini-revolvers/

[Canoeal]

here is the best I could find this morning, without wasting to much time. 22 LR. Again a 11/8" mini , not the Pug.

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/naa-22lr-mini-revolver-ammo-quest-results/

[theysayimnotme]

I like Canoeal's idea of the water jugs at 5 ft but I might have to put that off for a while because it's 12 degrees outside right now. I also agree that the magnum rounds seem to only add more noise. My Pug handles the 22lr without any issues but I have had light primmer strikes when using 22 mag rounds.

At 12 deg F it might make for a good test. Let the water freeze solid & you might get interesting results for expansion & penetration.
Of course at five feet there might be some chance of bullets  or ice chips bouncing back.

I'm getting the impression that magnum cartridges SPECIFICLY MADE for short barreled pistols may indeed be a significant improvement over LR cartridges. It also seems to appear that regular magnums are not.

[top dog]

Theysay,
I agree with you. The regular magnum rounds are made for longer bbls. The newer rounds specifically designed for short bbls would definitely be an improvement.

                                                                                              Top Dog

[Canoeal]

I did my BW water test last September with Gold dots( first pic), and Hornady CD ( second pic) the GD dented the back of the third jug, the Hornady put a crack in the back of the third jug causing it to leak. I think the GD looks better, but hey, whatever works.That was a 2" barreled BW...Since they both expanded I never did the same thing out of my 4" Charter Arms...

Sept was a little warmer, and the period between being declared OK to work, and rebreaking my foot.

BTW I don't see the flash with SD rounds. I do with Maxi Mag 30 gr HP+V and Maxi Mag 40 gr HP. FWIW

[top dog]

Looks like very good bullet performance.

Thank you for the information.

                                                               Top Dog

[WarrenW]

Thanks for all the info.
Here is a picture of my Pug

[Canoeal]

I put this together as a quick reference as to ballistics from NAA guns. No it does not include the SB SD 22 mag rounds now available, and they are a game changer. In order to preserve methodology, it only includes tests by NAA.

[WarrenW]

Update --- the weather warmed up to 21 degrees F so I was able to get out and do the water jug test.
I lined up a gallon of water, then 2 large plastic juice containers full of water and then another gallon.
I fired the CCI 32gr 22lr stinger at about 10ft and it went thru the first gallon and bounced off the first juice container. (not impressed)
Then I fired the Gold Dot 40gr short barrel 22mag. It went completely thru all 4 containers.
My conclusion; I will carry Gold Dot 22mag in my Pug.

[Canoeal]

THAT is why you do the test; to see for yourself.

[Dinadan]

Thanks for the report, Warren. I have never liked the 32gr ammo, LR or Mag. Gold Dots are my favorite magnum round.

[Warthog]

Mine too Gold Dots are the ones I carry for sure.

[Bj]

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/8/23/using-22-magnum-for-self-defense/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=insider&utm_campaign=0319

[Canoeal]

This one too:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/6/8/the-22-magnum-for-self-defense