Bought a J Frame Airweight - comparisons to NAA's

[lohman446]

IIRC in regards to the Miami shootout a shotgun, and multiple hits to the same B/G, were involved.  Some of the officers were still effective after being hit with .223 as well.  I recall discussing an incident recently where an officer hit COM on an attacker something like 20 times with a .40 and failed to produce a sudden stop.  Yes the perpetrator died eventually, but it was not quick enough to have been considered "good" in S/D.  He stopped only when out of ammo (and after trying to run the officer over).

[grayelky]

One of the Agents in Miami did have a shotgun, but it was not used to it's maximum effectiveness. Some of the agents did return fire after being hit with .223 ammo.

   

   Your example of 20 hits center mass helps to understand why experienced LEOs go for a shotgun or rifle when given a choice. Back in the dark ages, when our department allowed the Narcs to carry their choice of guns, every time they got in a shoot out (even once when a dog got shot and ran off), Walther PPKs could be bought for a song. The replacement was usually a .45. Even after our department went to the .40 S&W caliber, there were a couple of shootings that were very disappointing. One involved a BG getting hit in the chest and driving off. It is cases like these that lead to the teaching of "Shoot until the threat stops moving."

[ricart]

Sounds like the old, "is my caliber big enough" concerns.  First, I don't believe in "knock down power".  Sometimes I don't even believe in "killing power".  Regardless, this is mostly a handgun forum. I saw a man shot with a .22 short that never moved. He died. I saw a man shot in the head with a .45 ACP walking with a cane a few weeks later.  Somehow the shot affected his motor senses to the legs.  Shootings I covered had men shot in the eye with a .25ACP walking around at the scene.  Another shot in the groin   same caliber, bled out before they got him in the ambulance. A friend of mine was shot point blank with a 12GA triple buck round, hit his body armor just above the heart,  he never even went down.  I asked how it kept from knocking him down, he laughed, said remember we were taught, don't go down unless your dead.  Said it hurt like Hell, but I wasn't dead.  So, are .22 sufficient?  Is a .45 sufficient.  Just do your best with what you carry.  If it's not your time, it' will do. If it's your time, a 12 ga. isn't gun enough.

[22luvr]

I've owned an S&W 340 SC and a mod 638 and loved'em both.  I carried both in an Uncle Mike's size 3 pocket holster and they stayed well concealed.  The 340 SC in .357 mag and weighing in at 12 oz was like firing a hand-held howitzer, especially with heavier weighted bullets. I experienced some cylinder face erosion on the Scandium 340 SC but S&W repaired it beautifully for free under the warranty. For short range defense, concealability, and hand-gun power it was hard to beat.  The mod 638 was a sweet shooter for a J-frame with much better control and the added bonus of being able to thumb back the hammer.

[rjtravel]

Posted on Monday, November 08, 2010 - 06:18 pm:        

   ...S&W 340 SC and a mod 638... I carried both in an Uncle Mike's size 3 pocket holster...

   

   How did you get both of  'em to fit?

[grayelky]

Ricart wrote:

quote:

   

   Just do your best with what you carry. If it's not your time, it' will do. If it's your time, a 12 ga. isn't gun enough.

It seems you and I have a very similar philosophy. I am of the opinion God decides who dies and who lives. All I can do is influence how long they stay in surgery. Like you, I have seen people who died and "should not have", and I have seen people who "could not live through" what they just survived. I suppose this is part of what gives me confidence in my NAAs when I know they "are not enough" gun.

[22luvr]

Rjtravel: "Oh, a wise-guy!" Well, you should carry back-up, right? The wording does look sorta funny, doesn't it?  Anyway, the Uncle Mike's was soft, flexible and covered enough of the revolver silhouette to really conceal it quite well.

[grayelky]

quote:

   

   "Oh, a wise-guy!"

On this forum? Oh come on, get serious!

[lohman446]

Actually Ricart it is more more I really don't think any concealable handgun caliber is "big enough".  I think that we overrate the 45.  In the grand scheme of things it still takes good shot placement, and a little bit of luck (blessing, whatever), to stop a determined attacker.

[redhawk4]

I can carry my 44 Mag concealed and do quite often when my ultimate destination is bear and cougar country. 44 Mag is considered excessive in power and penetration by writers, everything else seems to be geared toward the "Goldilocks effect" that only the 45 acp is just right and everything else is skewed accordingly.

   

   It comes back to the fact the best gun and caliber are the one you are carrying when a problem occurs. Any gun will get you out of more problems than no gun, as discussed ad infinitum -most problems dissapear when a gun is drawn by "the victim".

   

   If it comes to a hand to hand fight your chances of winning have to be improved if the attacker has 5 rounds of 22 mag or whatever pumped in to him before the fisticuffs and wrestling commence. That's how I see it anyway.

[lohman446]

Actually Redhawk, I'm very fond of that thought about doing as much as possible before closing to close(r) combat.  I think it sums up a reality about defensive handguns, an inabiity to retreat, and a determined attacker that far too few people are prepared for.  

   

   I will admit that properly concealed to me at least means something different when I am hiking compared to in town.  Noone gives a fanny pack a second look when hiking.  I simply wear it to the side and have a holster sewn in. It gives me a crossdraw holster, not the greatest, but it conceals and secures well.

[redhawk4]

If you are 8 feet away from a determined attacker, with a knife, whose coming at you, short of a 12 gauge it's likely that whatever you shoot him with will require you to still defend yourself from some contact with your assailant.

   

   Lohman you are correct that we should keep that thought in mind in a close quarter confrontation and be prepared to take other steps in addition to shooting as may be necessary as they close in - something like a side step could prevent you getting stabbed rather than standing there, mouth open, gun in hand, wondering why he isn't down yet.

   

   For big handguns and comfortable concealment get a Simply Rugged Pancake holster, it will hide my 4" Redhawk under just a T shirt and when I'm in the outdoors I really don't notice it's there whether, working, hiking, riding my Enduro bike. You need a good belt as well.

[redhawk4]

As a bit of follow up, my Desantis Nemesis pocket holster arrived yeaterday. Nice holster but my first impression was it looked quite the pocket full. I carried the J frame in it for a while yesterday in lieu of the Guardian. Basically with this set up and probably because I'm used to carrying my Guardian, I soon didn't notice it was in my pocket. It doesn't print as such through my jeans but it certainly looks like you have a much fuller pocket than with the Guardian, being much bigger overall and not as slim of flat in profile. Overall impression so far is that it is a viable pocket carry but probably better suited to belt carry in the pancake holster that came with it. I'm going to try it again today and see how it goes.

[grayelky]

Redhawk-

   If you have the same Nemesis pocket holster for your Guardian, try the 38 in it. While not made for it, the holster will work nicely. The smaller holster will be a little less bulky, yet still present the revolver like you will need it to.

   

   In jeans, I can't carry the revolver in my pocket, but in my 5.11 pants it carries just fine with the pistol version of the holster.  

   

   Like any holster, it works better once it is broken in.

[redhawk4]

I don't have a problem with jeans, haven't tried it in dress pants, it may work better in those than the Guardian because the extra size will help to keep it under control. None of my 380 holsters will accomodate the Smith.

   

   I think being 6' 4" helps with concealed carry in general, because relatively speaking the gun is smaller compared to your body and clothes size.

[redhawk4]

I bought my wife a J frame for Christmas, a NIB S&W 360 chambered for 38 special and rated for +P. It has the scandium frame but steel cylinder weighs 13 oz and is labelled Airweight not Air lite like the other Scandiums. They were a limited run, mainly through Buds from what I can find on the net.

   

   I'm growing to like these J frames more and more, great shooters and easy to carry. My wife has a concealed carry purse so it works perfectly in there, even when using the larger of the two grips that came standard with these models. Even I can get all fingers on this grip and it helps to control the recoil accordingly. A great little carry gun, particularly for my wife who doesn't have the grip strength for semi auto slides and may forget to operate a safety in the heat of the moment. Fantastic double action trigger pull on this one too, even better than my 638.

   

   The more guns I own and fire, the more I've come to appreciate the qualities of a good revolver from my BT to my Ruger Redhawk they are all fantastic SD weapons, for the average person, for every day carry - if I'm "called out" to a gun fight in the street, I'll probably still take my 1911, but that's a very different scenario from everyday life and carry.

[redhawk4]

P.S. I forgot to add that I got my wife the 360 because it has the standard hammer. She could not cock the 638, it's a weird thing if the thumb of your shooting hand can reach the shrouded hammer it pulls back easily, if you try to use your other hand, so your hand is at an angle to the hammer, it's really quite hard to cock and she couldn't do it. I know for SD it is generally going to be DA shooting, but I still think there are scenarios where a well aimed SA shot could be required.

   

   So the 638 is now mine and carries very well in the Desantis pocket holster, now I'm used to it. With the arrival of winter, carrying the Guardian 380 in my Jeans pocket and the J frame in my Carhart coat pocket makes for a handy little two gun set up, the coat pocket giving much easier access when seated in the truck or car.

[heyjoe]

im sure a certain new guy, based on his experience and knowledge, would know better than me on this, but from what i understand smith and wesson 38's with fixed sights are most accurate with 158 grain ammo. Many people carry either .38 special or 38 special +p 158 gr swchp (semi wad cutter hollow point). This round has proven its effectiveness over the years.

[redhawk4]

Mine shoot dead on with 125 grain +P Double Tap ammo which gives 1100 fps from the 1 7/8" barrel, for SD these would be hard to beat IMO.