After the Sidewinder where will the innovation lead

[45flint]

Totally agree Brownie or COP remake.   Would love it with NAA quality.  The COP guns lately have just gone out of sight pricewise.   Right there with the Ranger!

[cedarview kid]

How about it, NAA? The North American Arms Brownie?

It needs a different name, though. We're not a bunch of girl scouts.

[TwoGunJayne]

That's 3 votes so far for The NAA Brownie.

Maybe we could call it the "Cub Scout?" 

[cedarview kid]

NAA Cub Scout. I like it. Or maybe just NAA Scout. Even better.

[usguns]

A DAO 5-shot .22 Magnum Mini Sidewinder with an enclosed hammer would really be something unique on the market.
However I think it would need a slightly bigger grip though to allow for a full 2-finger grip and perhaps maybe more room for additional lock-work?
Seems like a .22 Magnum version would be more do-able for NAA than a .32 ACP version?

Let's take baby steps first-- ...

Oh, and I'd love a black finish option too ... salivating.   

[bleak_window]

Louie, as you probably know, S&W did make revolvers smaller than J-frames.  Even the old J-frame is smaller than current J-frames.  There is also the I-frame family which included the .38/32 Terrier, a 5-shot .38 S&W on the smaller 32 frame.  There was also a .22/32 kit gun. 

The original Chief Special was an early J-frame meant to shoot .38 Specials, which were too strong for the I-frame.  As metallurgy improved, the size of the J-frame was enlarged again to handle the longer cylinder of .357 magnums.  They can make a 12-oz gun strong enough for magnums, (heedless of the destruction it may do to the hand holding the gun!)

So the reason for the J-frame's size was to get the power of .38 Specials into a gun a police detective or desk cop could carry in civilian clothes.  There's no reason S&W couldn't return to the I-frame for smaller calibers, smaller hands, etc.  When the J-frame (and the slightly larger 6-shot Colt Detective Special) were built, there was not the huge market for concealed carry guns that we have today.  Millions of women could use a smaller-framed gun than a J-frame. 

I think the Black Widow is a nice size for carry, but I would like something DA sized in between the BW and the J-frames, with options of .22, .22M, and .32ACP/.32 Long.  make it about 13-oz, stainless steel, and an inch smaller than a J in height and width.

[heyjoe]

i would estimate that an aluminum frame 6 shot double aqtion steel barrel, steel cylinder, I frame revolver for 32 H&R, 22lr and magnum would weigh about 11.5 ounces.

[Dinadan]

I do not think that the derringer route, one, two, or four barrel is the way to go. I think that something similar to the Casull CA2000, but with a fixed trigger and a trigger guard, would be a lot better. The four barrel derringers are a bit too much novelty items, I think, and I think they would appeal to an even smaller group than the current NAA designs.

It seems that NAA is extremely loath to change the lock mechanism on their Minis, so I really do not expect to see anything that changes the back half of the revolver. It would be kind of cool if they made a mini that looks like the Colt 1849 Wells Fargo Pocket Revolver with no top strap - I have always liked the look of those.

[Uncle_Lee]

.32 ACP MINI !!!!!

[TwoGunJayne]

You know, those Sharps patent 4-bangers also came in .32...

I also wonder that since the barrel assembly slides forwards (and off of the frame,) if a simple barrel assembly swap would allow for caliber conversions. One barrel set .32 acp with the firing pin hitting center, but another barrel set .22 mag spaced so that the firing pin now hits the outer edge of the rim. One pistol, 3 barrel sets: .22 mag, .22lr, .32 acp. How cool would that be? I'd definitely take a pair of frames in stainless and 2 each of the barrel sets.

Stainless frame! Not brass!

[cedarview kid]

Didn't know that. Now there's an interesting option....

[bbgun]

All I can say is Sandy has one hell of a Think Tank !!

[usguns]

... I think that something similar to the Casull CA2000, but with a fixed trigger and a trigger guard, would be a lot better. ...

Agreed!  While a .32 would be very cool, a 22LR/22 Mag version would be more likely as it would seem to be something that would be easier for NAA to create. 
If they could "just" fit a DAO mechanism to their existing Sidewinder frame ... easier said than done but it seems doable?

[TwoGunJayne]

A suggestion that wouldn't even involve design or re-tooling would be to offer dura/cera coat over the stainless and color choices. I'd take a "black black widow", mine has a couple of spots that keep corroding on the body-side when I carry it in the summer and then I have to rub on it.

[usguns]

This H&R Vest-Pocket Self-Cocker has been posted here before, probably many times, but is a neat little gun:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H%26R_self_cocker.jpg

[45flint]

I do not think that the derringer route, one, two, or four barrel is the way to go. I think that something similar to the Casull CA2000, but with a fixed trigger and a trigger guard, would be a lot better. The four barrel derringers are a bit too much novelty items, I think, and I think they would appeal to an even smaller group than the current NAA designs.

It seems that NAA is extremely loath to change the lock mechanism on their Minis, so I really do not expect to see anything that changes the back half of the revolver. It would be kind of cool if they made a mini that looks like the Colt 1849 Wells Fargo Pocket Revolver with no top strap - I have always liked the look of those.

If Casull couldn't make a go of the CA2000 not sure NAA would want to go there, though I would like the idea.  Not sure it is a practical weapon. Heard the trigger pull was terrible.  Imagine trying to stay on target with that small a DA pistol.

[Dinadan]

         

This H&R Vest-Pocket Self-Cocker has been posted here before, probably many times, but is a neat little gun:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H%26R_self_cocker.jpg

USGuns - that is a pretty good model for a new NAA. Really ugly: NAA would need to add an inch to the barrel and a spur to the hammer and change the grips profile to make it look better, but that is kind of what I had in mind.   

[usguns]

         

This H&R Vest-Pocket Self-Cocker has been posted here before, probably many times, but is a neat little gun:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H%26R_self_cocker.jpg

USGuns - that is a pretty good model for a new NAA. Really ugly: NAA would need to add an inch to the barrel and a spur to the hammer and change the grips profile to make it look better, but that is kind of what I had in mind.

As always, beauty is in the high of the beholder. I actually like the short barrel, makes concealment easier. I would also like an enclosed hammer. However the standard NAA grip would need to be enlarged.  I was thinking just taking today's short-barreled NAA 22 Magnum and adding a DAO mechanism with an enlarged grip and enclosing the hammer.

[grayelky]

What about a .22 mag, semi auto, (no bigger than the current mini mag), but hold at least 6 in the mag, no heavier than 7 or so ounces, and under $250.00. Of course, it must be 100% reliable with any of the short barreled HP rounds on the market. Trit front night sight would be an option.

I predict NAA would need to add another production line and run it 2 shifts a day, 5 days a week!

[ikoiko]

I'd buy one.

[turkeyhunter]

What about a .22 mag, semi auto, (no bigger than the current mini mag), but hold at least 6 in the mag, no heavier than 7 or so ounces, and under $250.00. Of course, it must be 100% reliable with any of the short barreled HP rounds on the market. Trit front night sight would be an option.

I predict NAA would need to add another production line and run it 2 shifts a day, 5 days a week!

Ditto on a .22 semi auto (Mag or LR).  I was thinkin' just last night it would be cool if NAA could replicate a similar design (size, shape, dimensions) to a Baby Browning or Bauer .25acp, but in .22 LR.  NOW, if they could do it in .22 MAG... even better!!!!!

[45flint]

Small 22 auto would sell

[lohman446]

I think this was glossed over above and was considering it when grayelky mentioned trying to get sidewinders for his shop.

A swing style revolver (preferably swinging to the correct side this time) slightly bigger than the mini-revolvers but not as big as the current J-frame in .22MAG (yeh I would like .32 but...) but in double action

How many people selling guns recommend a revolver to those unfamiliar with guns because of their ease of use?  No slide to rack, easier to continue after a misfire, etc.   A slightly smaller one, chambered for a cartridge with less recoil than the .38SPCL, may nearly sell itself. 

[cedarview kid]

Small 22 auto would sell

Yup. We've discussed the merits of making a Guardian .22 for a few years here. I'd surely buy one.

[usguns]

... A swing style revolver (preferably swinging to the correct side this time) slightly bigger than the mini-revolvers but not as big as the current J-frame in .22MAG (yeh I would like .32 but...) but in double action ...

Yep, I've been requesting such a thing for ages here in other threads with pictures of revolvers from the past, but I can't find those posts anymore.
Unfortunately I think those posts are gone as I missed the forum conversion email and my user ID was purged, so I had to start over.

Regarding a Guardian in .22 Mag, wouldn't the frame have to be scaled up quite a bit to accommodate the longer .22 Mag cartridge?

[TwoGunJayne]

As much as I'd love a .22 mag guardian (and would totally buy one,) the technical problems are huge. The most reliable .22 mag semiauto pistol I'm aware of is the Automag .22 magnum. The Kel-tec PMR30 has been plagued with problems since its debut, many recalls and revisions. Even still, it has problems with cycling and keyholing with certain grains of ammo. The primary problem in the Kel-tec platform is the hybrid locked/blowback system required for different ammo types. I hear that even at time of posting, they hate lightweight bullet ammo. It's really a *** shame. Combine this with the crazy going on right now and you see similar prices for a FN Five-seven for a .22 mag platform that has problems.

These problems will amplify as you try to make it smaller and smaller. I hate that because I really want a double-stack high-cap .22 mag guardian. I just don't see it happening, though. If NAA could pull it off, they would have rabid mobs tearing down their door trying to buy millions of them worldwide.

[cedarview kid]

At this point, i'm more interested in a .22LR Guardian. I already own an Automag II with a six-inch barrel. I used to own the PMR30 grandfather, or the Grendel P30, designed by the same guy (which I met once!).

Plenty of small .22LR autos work just fine, so I think that's a good place to start.

[lohman446]

Yep, I've been requesting such a thing for ages here in other threads with pictures of revolvers from the past, but I can't find those posts anymore.
Unfortunately I think those posts are gone as I missed the forum conversion email and my user ID was purged, so I had to start over.

I'm thinking about the size of a Ruger Bearcat - not designed to be tiny but designed to be small.  Double action, swing out cylinder, .22 Magnum / .22 LR interchangeable cylinders.  Look at all the shops selling J-frames as nightstand guns to those who do not have the dexterity, strength, or training to deal with a semi-auto.  This would fall into that niche EXTREMELY well and I would buy one for my daughter on early-bird. 

[oldguy]

I'm with lohman446, I don't have a daughter but I would buy one for my son...heck I'd get two - one for me too.

[lcorn]

I going to bring up this pistol design again. It's an Iver Johnson Shattuck. The cylinder swings out then it is pushed toward the barrel to eject the shells. I could see this on a BW frame. It would be easy to reload and clean.

[grayelky]

lohmann446 and oldguy-
Ruger has never made a mag Bearcat. (INCORRECT statement, see below. Thanks Boone)  HOWEVER, they are currently making an LCR in .22 mag. I would prefer it as an 8 shot like the S&W, but Ruger chose to make it a 6 shot. Now IF you could find one.....

Regarding my post above: That is a fantasy gun I would love, but will not be built anytime soon. It just is not going to work. At least no one has been able to get a .22 mag to work reliably YET. For my $.02 worth, I do not want a larger gun than the mag mini. I consider the NAA perfect for what it is designed to be, and do: Be an emergency gun to get me to my gun, where I can defend me from whatever threat that was facing me when I had to use my mini.

You have to remember, everything is a trade off: You can't have adequate stopping power w/o recoil. Weight will reduce felt recoil, but then you have to carry a heavy gun. Reduce the weight, reduce the recoil to a level the average person can handle it, and you lose the stopping power. Yeah, just a little bigger will allow a .31 caliber Super Stopper to fit and function, but, if we went to a .345 caliber, then we would have a lot more stopping power, but what about the recoil? Make 2 power levels, one for self defense, one for practice. It's called the .38 sp/.357 mag. Oh, you wanted less recoil, and 6 shots instead of 5? Try a .32 S&W long for practice and a .327 Federal for self defense. Oops, now we are back to being too heavy to carry all the time. And too big. Again.

If your goal is a great plinker, then Ruger's Bearcat is worthy. I agree, it would be almost perfect if it had a mag cylinder to go with it, but Ruger has chosen to not do that. Add double action, and you add bulk and weight. It does need better sights.

[boone123]

Ruger did make a Bearcat that shot 22Mags. They got most of them back. Recall. The ones still  out there are spendy.
I think, but not sure, there was about a thousand sold.

[Uncle_Lee]

The magnum Bearcat is pricy but they were made:


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=330641160


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=331286722

[OV-1D]

I would pay anything for a modren copy of a Remington Rider magazine pistol . Would also like to see these ammo makers run full lines of rimfire calibers with the proper loads and powder for shooting all these beautiful antiques out there that are made just as well as today firearms . Rimfires got to be cheaper to produce .

[grayelky]

boone123 and uncle_lee-
Thanks.