NAA Super Companion - Velocities and Ballistics Gelatin Penetration

zack114a · March-29-20 00:03

Hello All:

I bought a Super Companion a few months back and I've been shooting it using CCI #11 Magnum Percussion Caps (I just recently purchased some Remington #11 Caps), the NAA 30 Grain Round Nose Lead Bullets, and One .3 CC Lee Scoop of Hodgdon 3F Triple Seven. Lately, I have been grinding the 3F Triple Seven Powder into 4F powder using the handle end of a screwdriver and a sheet of paper.

I just purchased some Gelatin, so I plan to conduct some improvised ballistic gel testing soon and I will report back with results after testing has been completed. I do not have access to a Chronograph, and I was wondering if anyone else has been using 3F or 4F Triple Seven in the Super Companion, and if so, what velocities have you been getting?

Also, has anyone ever conducted ballistics gel testing with the Super Companion? If so, what results did you see? I've seen extensive testing with the .22 LR NAA Mini, but no such testing with the Super Companion using BP / BP Substitute.

Very Respectfully,

Zack114a, Missouri.

OLD and GRUMPY · March-29-20 13:03

Welcome. This will tell you how our little black pain in the a** works. http://trac-r.com/c&b/pdf/CutawayChamberView.pdf She likes to be clean or she gums up. Pin and chambers will gum up after 1 or 2 cylinders. more latter. Post picks!

OLD and GRUMPY · March-29-20 14:03

Just got my good computer back. Easy to post. No I was not dead. Use the search up top and you will find a books worth of posts on her. 777 is about 15% hotter than black. Hogden makes it and on there page if you dig they say to cut the charge 15% in the big Cap&Balls like Colts. Not so with Companion. 4F is a primer. Find a club that shoots flint and trade for a few OZs.

zack114a · March-31-20 12:03

Old and Grumpy,

Thank you for your reply! I will definitely post results as soon as I am able to do my ballistics testing; I have attached two pictures of my current blackpowder setup. I have a NAA Super Companion and a Uberti Remington 1858 .44 Sheriff's Model (Steel, Blued) with a 5.5" barrel. With the Super Companion I am using the holster it came with, which I modified a bit by wiring the flap to the back so that it works better as a pocket holster; with the 1858 I have a large universal drop leg holster.

I've been wondering about 4F Black; I know that 777 has more power, but based upon the design of the cylinder I'm wondering now if 4F Black would actually have more power than 3F 777 that I have grinded down into 4F 777. Next time I go to Grafs I intend to pick up some Swiss 4F just to have for a baseline if nothing else haha.

What are your thoughts on 777 that has been crushed down to 4F? I know by the numbers 777 has more power than BP, but based on the cylinder design, the high ignition point, and the short barrel of the Super Companion, I'm starting to wonder if BP would end up being more powerful.

Ultimately I'm wanting to create a load for the Super Companion that will ensure the 30 Grain Lead NAA Bullet will penetrate more than 12" in ballistics gel.

- Zack

zack114a · April-02-20 23:04

ALCON,

Today I concluded my ballistic gel testing. I manufactured an improvised ballistic gel using the recipe provided at: https://www.ammoland.com/2019/09/how-to-make-homemade-ballistic-gelatin-for-testing-bullet-impact/#axzz6IQNxTNm9

After reheating, I poured the gel into a soda box lined with a thick trashbag and placed it into the fridge for about 24 hours. I removed the gel and allowed it to sit for about 20 minutes before removing it from the mold - the block it produced looked rough, but was about 5" x 5" x 16".

About 10 minutes after that, I drove to my shooting spot, set the gel block on a cardboard box, and from about 3 feet away, fired 5 rounds from my Super Companion into the block.

My Super Companion had been cleaned and oiled thoroughly prior to testing. I had loaded the cylinder yesterday before I went to the store - the Super Companion is my EDC. The cylinder was fitted with 5 CCI #11 Magnum Percussion Caps, which I always seat on the nipple using a homemade press attached to my loading tool. Using a homemade funnel, I loaded each cylinder with one tamped .3 CC Lee Scoop filled with 4F 777 Powder, which I had made from 3F 777 Powder that I had crushed down on a paper plate. I then seated the 30 Grain NAA Round Nose Hollow Base Lead Conical into the cylinder using the bullet seating tool. After loading all 5 cylinders, I applied a small amount of bullet lube to each chamber mouth using a knife and my finger.

The results obtained from the ballistics gel test today surprised me.

Shot 1 - 9", then exited gel from bottom.
Shot 2 - 11.25", tumbled and bounced back from 11.75" to 11.25".
Shot 3 - 10.25", tumbled and bounced back from 10.75 to 10.25.
Shot 4 - 11.75", bounced back from 12" to 11.75". Bullet did not tumble.
Shot 5 - 10.5", then exited gel from bottom.

Of the 3 bullets recovered from the ballistic gel, the results appear to be pretty consistent. They penetrated between around 10.75" and 12". They entered the block, flipped backward (except for bullet 4), and then continued to pass through the gel in a downward arc to about 10.75" - 12", then bounced back in the gel about 1/2 inch. I am confident that if Shot 1 and 5 had continued in the gel, they would have ended up between about 11" and 12".

The permanent wound cavities the bullets produced were interesting as well; they averaged around 1/2 to 3/4" in diameter. The permanent wound cavities appeared to start about 1/2 to 1 inch into the gel, and continue for about 4 inches or so. I think part of the reason for the wound cavities as well as the bullets tumbling may be because of the sharp flat edge on the bullets where the seating tool presses against the lead during loading of the cylinders, but I'm not sure.

The caps I'm using are CCI, and the powder is a can of 3F 777 that I opened back in December. The cylinder was loaded and carried around in my pocket a full day before I did the shoot, and the job I did of grinding the 3F powder down into 4F powder was somewhat rushed. I'm thinking that with Remington caps, a fresh can of powder, and better crushing of the 3F powder into 4F or even 5F, in the near future I will be able to retest and obtain consistent, repeatable results where all 5 bullets meet the 12" penetration standard.

Overall, a fun experiment and results that I did not expect. I will post more once my next test is complete.

- Zack

zack114a · April-02-20 23:04

Additional Photos:

Rick_Jorgenson · April-05-20 07:04

zack114a,

Welcome to the Forum. Your post is excellent! Well written with great detail of the results.

You definitely raised the bar for providing information of the NAA Cap & Ball Guns

I don't have a Companion (yet

) I guess you can say I'm "Companion curious"

Hopefully the photos will show up soon. Once you're off "probation" (after 15 posts) your posts and photos all show up immediately.

Again, Welcome to the Forum!

OLD and GRUMPY · April-05-20 10:04

Wow. I don't do gel or have a crono but there are a few things I wanted to try. #1 based on the link above that says it works best with loose powder I wanted to try cutting the charge. Less is more? #2 Finer powder. I think Swiss makes a grade called "Null"? It is the dust left over from sifting. #3 She is a short range gun at best so try loading the bullet in upside down? Cant hit anything as it is. #4 The oldest pre NAA ones came with load data for Bullseye. DO NOT TRY THIS. But if you use the search up top there are old posts on this.Companion is made the same as the cartridge magnums so she is strong. Also go to other topics and run up your post count to 15 so we can see the pics.

OLD and GRUMPY · April-05-20 11:04

And--- 777 is cleaner than black and she will not gum up as fast. Your larger black ones gum up. Times that by 2 or 3 for companion. In the old posts you will find a books worth of her and pages on grinding powder and the history of it. If i remember right 777 mushes down to almost a paste. Go way back. Won't give the names to look for. Don't want to re light the old fires. Most are gone. Most missed.

zack114a · April-06-20 22:04

ALCON,

I managed to graduate past the 15 post mark, so the pictures should be available now. I intend to conduct another test in about a week or so using the same ballistics gel after I remelt and form it again. In the meantime, if I can find a friend with a BB gun that shoots ~590 fps, I intend to verify the gel is calibrated to the 10% FBI standard. I made it very carefully according to the aforementioned recipe, so I'll be very surprised if it is not spot on.

With this next test I will be using Remington #11 Percussion Caps and 777 that has been crushed finer and more consistent, so I'm hoping I'll be able to break the 12" mark with all 5 bullets.

Rick, thank you! I've read a ton of forums but this is my first time posting - I figured the ballistic testing was too good to just keep to myself haha. I would highly advise the Super Companion so far - it's a lot of fun to shoot and it appears to actually be practical for small game hunting and, as a last resort, self defense as well.

Old and Grumpy, I know right? The results more than surprised me. I'll have to try cutting the charge with the 4F 777 and see how it handles - with the design less may indeed end up being more. I've been wanting to try Swiss Null B but haven't quite made the purchase yet due to the pricing, but I'm sure it will outperform 4F due to the faster ignition. I never considered the idea of loading the bullets upside down! I'll have to try that soon, I'm very curious to see what the results would look like in gel. I've read alot about using Bullseye, and seen a few people claiming 1500 fps doing so. I think 2 grains wouldn't blow the gun up by no means, but I don't intend to experiment with it at the moment. I find no need to considering the penetration that I'm already getting with 4F 777. I intend to do some more research on grinding down the 777 and various efficient means of doing so and you were right - it definitely mushes down to a paste almost. My scale was reading around .19 with 1 .3 CC scoop of 3F 777, but with 4F it was reading around .22.

- Zack

OLD and GRUMPY · April-11-20 09:04

You are so deep into this. For what it's worth. Cap fit info.

OLD and GRUMPY · April-11-20 11:04

Shelf life of powder. Keeping C&B loaded long term (for carry?) . Someone asked about this? From what I have read 777 and pyrodex will loose punch over time. The holy black is for ever. After unloading old guns (150+ years loaded) the powder can still flash. If you ever find a old loaded gun that could be very old call Goex. Some of the powder makers want to test and see the recipe they used. I Have kept revolvers loaded half a year and they fire just fine. I have also had a dead cylinder. The problem was that the nipple although looking dry had oil on it and it killed the cap. Re cap and BANG. For long term the chambers must be dry. the nipples must be not just dry but oil free inside and out except for a tiny drop of thread lube. I use Birchwood Casey Choke tube lube. But none on the cone or inside face. Grease over the chambers even if you use lubed wads. The old way to seal the caps was to drip candle wax over them. I have used Nail polish. Wax would be better. Don't blow yourself up

.
What distance was the gel test?

OLD and GRUMPY · April-13-20 13:04

I talked about loading the bullet upside down. In the battle of Stalingrad the fighting was at close range. Not house to house but 10'. The Russkies found that if you pulled the bullet and put it back in upside down the German helmet and skull would look like one of my pumpkins. Companion will not do that but that is the idea. Short range.

bearcatter · April-13-20 16:04

That would basically turn ball ammo into flat nose; against the Geneva Convention. The reason military is limited to ball ammo is that you only want to remove the enemy soldier from combat, not kill him. Also, a wounded man requires treatment and care that ties up several more people, and more resources.

OLD and GRUMPY · April-13-20 17:04

Yes. We are not talking about a combatant .They were not human. Talk to the old guys who fought. We are talking about a dirt tramp who lives under the bridge who will jump you at the 7-11. F them . We cleaned my dads stuff out. Found a box of gold teeth. Iwo Jima. Sipan. Guam. Got a complaint? All that is left of the Imperal Japinese Army!!!!

Uncle_Lee · April-14-20 02:04

Geneva Convention = Fighting a PC war.
Seems like the good guys are the only ones that fight by rules.

I hate PC. It just ain't in my blood.

glenn · April-14-20 03:04

That's what has always cracked me up.
They bombed he!! out of London ... France ...
We bombed he!! out of Nagasaki & Hiroshima ...
But we're gonna quibble over the type of bullets used in infantry arms

They require DEADLY bullets for hunting game ... so the victim doesn't suffer ...
But they require ball ammo for hunting Humans ... so they don't die fast with less suffering

?

War is a last resort to stop some kind of action of the other party ... or to gain something you want.
WAR was always ... Use ALL THE FORCE at your disposal to quickly & unmercifully achieve your goal.
Some time in the 50's .... something changed. Since that time ... we now seem to go to war ... WITHOUT that swift end to a goal in mind. We seem to go in to a stagnant stream of lost/wasted lives & money ... to the benefit of certain corporations & politicos.

Am I missing something or seeing things from a wrong point of view ?

.

Canoeal · April-14-20 08:04

Nope you got it right. You did however miss that we bombed Berlin...

bearcatter · April-14-20 10:04

Today we worry about collateral damage. In WW2 most of the damage was collateral.

We (and the RAF) pretty well leveled Hamburg and several other German cities. Japan was easier, being mostly wood construction, so we (the U.S.alone) used more incendiary bombs to level dozens of cities. Air rushing in to feed the flames was so strong that people couldn't stand up to run. The ones that made it to underground shelters baked to death. Millions of civilians died.

Uncle_Lee · April-14-20 13:04

Quote from: glenn on April-14-20 03:04
That's what has always cracked me up.
They bombed he!! out of London ... France ...
We bombed he!! out of Nagasaki & Hiroshima ...
But we're gonna quibble over the type of bullets used in infantry arms

They require DEADLY bullets for hunting game ... so the victim doesn't suffer ...
But they require ball ammo for hunting Humans ... so they don't die fast with less suffering ?

War is a last resort to stop some kind of action of the other party ... or to gain something you want.
WAR was always ... Use ALL THE FORCE at your disposal to quickly & unmercifully achieve your goal.
Some time in the 50's .... something changed. Since that time ... we now seem to go to war ... WITHOUT that swift end to a goal in mind. We seem to go in to a stagnant stream of lost/wasted lives & money ... to the benefit of certain corporations & politicos.

Am I missing something or seeing things from a wrong point of view ?

.

No glenn, I think you have it right on the head. Before the end of WWII the USA fought a war to win it. All engagements after WWII has been fought under the supervision of The United Nations. AND, AND, We have lost every one of them. Except maybe Granada. (or however it is spelled) When you tuck your tail and retreat, that is a lost war, not a victory. Every military death in a war not fought to win is a wasted life. Why fight a war you know you are not going to win??
We don't fight to win any more. We don't want to offend the enemy. Politically Correct Wars........ You cannot win them.

Mustn't kill civilians. How many civilians were in the Twin Towers??

OV-1D · April-14-20 15:04

Anymore they are Liberal war games and the enemy doesn't have to worry because we'll send boatloads of cash to help fix them back up with our freaking help mind ya . Why we must be the worlds police force beats me because all it does is create more long term lasting enemies especially being that money I said goes to the rich of the dam countries anyhow not the people that are in dyer straights to survive every hour of every day .. Similar to us but they have to keep the chain of cash flowing over here first so our lifestyles gotta look relatively descent on the outside but still the rich get richer on our backs . See Unc you got me ranting again ,DAM !!!!! GOODNIGHT . P.S. Glad all is getting a little back to normal for you two , stay well .

LHB · April-14-20 20:04

I think the biggest change in our war fighting has come due to the media. War used to be grand and glorious, at least in the stories and paintings. The photos of the dead during the Civil War caused talk among the folks back home. Then Staff Sargent Norm Hatch's "With the Marines at Tarawa," even though it won an Oscar, his combat footage showed Marine dead floating in the water, and people started to question if the island war was worth it, when it had hardly started. Then came Nam, and the TV crews, and the public watched the war with Walter Kronkite during dinner. It also hasn't helped as it has come out how many times the government has lied to the public about what we were doing, before, during, and after a confrontation.

ps, I was trained to be a Marine Combat Cameraman
pps. The WWII army used to complain that a Marine squad was 10 men and a photographer

OV-1D · April-15-20 05:04

Lets not forget the *itch jane fonda . That's the kind of people we have coming up in society now and then .Bleeding hearts that want their cake and eat it too . Media should be excluded from any foreign coverage about any going on but its too late for change now , the cats out of the bag and we will never finish what needs to be completely done for total peace and the enemy knows it .

Nova445 · May-05-20 17:05

Is it possible to use smokeless in a companion? The cylinders are made from the same steel with the same diameter holes... I know the safety monitors will blanch, but there are a number of smokeless muzzleloaders in other countries.

What is the story with "super companions?" I just joined today interested in the companions after perusing the NAA website.

Thanks!

Rigemortis · May-12-20 15:05

Possible or recommend. I doubt anyone on the forum will recommend using smokeless powder in the black powder device. People are concerned about liability in regards to going against the manufacturers recommendation for usage.

lefty dude · May-12-20 20:05

For my Super-Companion, If I run out of 4F Black. I know what to use. Yep, I have shot Smokeless!!!!
Enough said !!!!

OLD and GRUMPY · May-13-20 06:05

NOVA-- Welcome. Use the search up top.

Uncle_Lee · May-14-20 03:05

I had a Freedom Arms black powder revolver that I only used Bullseye in it. One grain. Why? Because I didn't have any black powder and that is what the manual recommended. No problems.
Go by your manual.

TruthTellers · June-12-20 12:06

I've had a passive interest in the Super Companion revolvers for years. Have gone back and forth as to whether the 2 inch or 4 inch barrel is better, but I would imagine the 4 inch gets much better velocities. What that does when we're working with the same 30 grain bullet that never expands IDK. I can't imagine people are carrying the 2 inch Companion, but I could see people open carrying the 4 inch, thus I tend to think the longer barrel is more useful.