Rough machine marks in barrel of Pug and BW?

Gunznknives · April-06-22 11:04

Hi guys,

I've been around guns for a long time but I have never seen such rough barrel machining as I've captured here in both my Pug and Black Widow.

My question is, is this normal for NAA minis? The marks on both my guns are almost identical. It just seems odd and I must admit, I'm taken back a little. The strangest part is the fact that both these guns shoot very well and are otherwise finished very nicely. Can anyone weigh in on this??

Gunznknives · April-06-22 11:04

The picture in the original post is the Black Widow. Here's a picture of the Pug barrel.

Gunznknives · April-07-22 08:04

Black Widow

Gunznknives · April-07-22 08:04

Another of the BW..

Gunznknives · April-07-22 08:04

Don't get me wrong. I'm still a proud owner of these NAA products and they shoot as expected, but I'm somewhat disappointed with this particular situation. I understand that these are not match grade target barrels, but I guess I was hoping for a little nicer quality..

Uncle_Lee · April-07-22 15:04

Contact Jessica and send them back.
That is NOT normal North American Arms work.

Gunznknives · April-07-22 15:04

Quote from: uncle_lee on April-07-22 15:04
Contact Jessica and send them back.
That is NOT normal North American Arms work.

Oh geez... I dread doing that.

Funny thing is, I haven't bought any guns for a couple years, since before the pandemic. So in the last month, I decided to treat myself and I bought three handguns...2 NAA's and one Beretta. The Beretta is back for warranty repair as we speak. It ended up having a faulty crown. Now this.

I've never considered myself a lucky man but this is ridiculous. Looks like I'm batting 3 for 3 with serious defects after 20+ gun purchases without a problem. I should have checked them more carefully at the store, but I don't know that I would have seen those small lands inside the barrel with my old eyes.

Frankly, I'm not sure I want to go through the long drawn out hassle of sending these two back in. There's always a chance they can come back worse. As I've mentioned before, they really do shoot well. I just have to remind myself never to look inside the barrel, lol..

It's just amazing that two different models have the same exact issue. I guess I was kind of hoping it was more common or just an artifact of their machining process.

Oh well, what a dilemma..

smokeless joe · April-07-22 16:04

If you reach out to NAA (Jessica) you will find their customer service is second to none

Rex T. Dog · April-07-22 16:04

The regular guy that does the rifling must have been on vacation...no reason for work that shoddy...

bearcatter · April-07-22 17:04

That was done by a dry, or worn, cutter. I wouldn't like that at all.

antares_b · April-07-22 23:04

This issue is nothing new. There was talk on the forum years ago about chatter in NAA barrel rifling.

Uncle_Lee · April-08-22 04:04

That ain't doing too bad.
Twice in "years ago".

Gunznknives · April-08-22 05:04

I did indeed do a forum and internet search last night. A few pictures I've seen show the same exact chatter marks as my rifling shows. Apparently this topic comes up sporadically every now and then.

Being that I have two examples with both showing the same marks, I have to believe the issue is more prevalent than many owners are aware of. I also think many people don't care and are not as fanatical as many of us OCDer's...

Dinadan · April-09-22 18:04

Quote from: Gunznknives on April-08-22 05:04
I did indeed do a forum and internet search last night. A few pictures I've seen show the same exact chatter marks as my rifling shows. Apparently this topic comes up sporadically every now and then.

Being that I have two examples with both showing the same marks, I have to believe the issue is more prevalent than many owners are aware of. I also think many people don't care and are not as fanatical as many of us OCDer's...

I have one Mini with the same kind of poor machining in the barrel, though not so pronounced as in your barrel. I have never seen any factual data about the effect, if any, of the poor machining on accuracy or velocity. Mine seems to shoot about as good as my other Minis so I never sent it back. It did annoy me. I am a bit surprised that NAA does not have better quality control.

That is some good photography of the bore.

theysayimnotme · April-09-22 20:04

At least they are rifled. I had a short that had no sign of any rifling.

Canoeal · April-09-22 21:04

Mine have no marks that I can find. But my lands and grooves seem insignificant next to those...My BW does have more than 1500 rounds through it...

antares_b · April-10-22 03:04

As far as I can tell, the only functional downside to chatter is that it attracts fouling.

5_shooter · April-10-22 04:04

All my minis have those chatter marks except one. A 3" Earl with no rifling. I sent it in for a new barrel. When I got it back it had rifling with chatter marks. Also the end of the barrel was cut at an angle. It shot 3" to the left at 10'. I had a piloted facing cutter, so cut the barrel square myself, and recrowned it. Now it's shooting good. In my opinion, the biggest problem with minis is the low quality of their barrels.

Gunznknives · April-10-22 04:04

Quote from: antares_b on April-10-22 03:04
As far as I can tell, the only functional downside to chatter is that it attracts fouling.

That's just it. My pair seem otherwise functionally sound. They are accurate and shoot well other than an occasional cylinder jam and some keyholing, however, not any more than I read with other people's models. Hence my dilemma, I don't really want to send them in because they function fine, but it still bothers me.

Interestingly, I went back to the gun dealer where I purchased my NAA's yesterday. This time I brought my 10x loupe and a flashlight. They had a half a dozen or so NAA models in stock. I figured maybe I'll pick one up if I can find one I like. That way it can hold me over if I decide to send my other two in for warranty repair.

I do like a Sheriff's model they had very much.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I didn't buy anything. Why? Because the salesperson I was with was nice enough to let me examine every barrel and I found every single one of them had machining marks and defects. One of them was actually missing a land and a groove. In other words, it had seven lands and grooves instead of eight. I never seen anything like that. Whatever's going on in the NAA factory is either normal and acceptable tolerances, or nothing is getting QC'd before it leaves.

So being the way things are, I'm leaning towards just keeping mine and enjoying them the best I can. They are still really fun and I'm glad I have them. I think I'll waiit a while before picking up another model in case it truly is a temporary blip in manufacturing that they can fix.

Steve

Gunznknives · April-10-22 05:04

Quote from: 5_shooter on April-10-22 04:04
All my minis have those chatter marks except one. A 3" Earl with no rifling. I sent it in for a new barrel. When I got it back it had rifling with chatter marks. Also the end of the barrel was cut at an angle. It shot 3" to the left at 10'. I had a piloted facing cutter, so cut the barrel square myself, and recrowned it. Now it's shooting good. In my opinion, the biggest problem with minis is the low quality of their barrels.

Decidedly, I would have to agree..

bearcatter · April-10-22 06:04

FWIW, the rifling on my Guardians is smooth but the grooves are shallow. Just deep enough to see. I've assumed it's NAA's spec, since the guns are the same and made a year apart.

heyjoe · April-10-22 08:04

Quote from: Gunznknives on April-10-22 04:04
Quote from: antares_b on April-10-22 03:04
As far as I can tell, the only functional downside to chatter is that it attracts fouling.

That's just it. My pair seem otherwise functionally sound. They are accurate and shoot well other than an occasional cylinder jam and some keyholing, however, not any more than I read with other people's models. Hence my dilemma, I don't really want to send them in because they function fine, but it still bothers me.

Interestingly, I went back to the gun dealer where I purchased my NAA's yesterday. This time I brought my 10x loupe and a flashlight. They had a half a dozen or so NAA models in stock. I figured maybe I'll pick one up if I can find one I like. That way it can hold me over if I decide to send my other two in for warranty repair. I do like a Sheriff's model they had very much.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I didn't buy anything. Why? Because the salesperson I was with was nice enough to let me examine every barrel and I found every single one of them had machining marks and defects. One of them was actually missing a land and a groove. In other words, it had seven lands and grooves instead of eight. I never seen anything like that. Whatever's going on in the NAA factory is either normal and acceptable tolerances, or nothing is getting QC'd before it leaves.

So being the way things are, I'm leaning towards just keeping mine and enjoying them the best I can. They are still really fun and I'm glad I have them. I think I'll waiit a while before picking up another model in case it truly is a temporary blip in manufacturing that they can fix.

Steve

i would be concerned with the occassional cylinder jam....why is it jamming? is it going to jam when you really need it? i would send it back for that, if i couldnt figure out myself why ii is jamming or if it wasnt an easy fix.....cleaning, lubrication etc.

Gunznknives · April-10-22 08:04

Quote from: heyjoe link=topic=25525.msg212665#msg212665 date

/quote]

i would be concerned with the occassional cylinder jam....why is it jamming? is it going to jam when you really need it? i would send it back for that, if i couldnt figure out myself why ii is jamming or if it wasnt an easy fix.....cleaning, lubrication etc.

I think it may have been user error on my part. I suspect that I didn't have one or more of the cartridges seated properly. It wasn't a recurring incident over two shooting sessions.

Steve

Gunznknives · April-15-22 04:04

I just wanted to offer an update to those who may be interested.

After communicating by email and phone with the appropriate people in various departments, I decided to move forward with warranty service on the Black Widow. I mailed it via FedEx late last night with a label they supplied, so the gun should arrive to them on Monday. If all goes well, and I suspect it will, I may decide to mail in the Pug at a different time. I didn't want to be without both in case this takes a while to resolve.

I want to thank NAA for being attentive and gracious in helping me take care of this matter. I'm confident that I will have an outcome that will leave me a satisfied customer. I'll update here again when I have the gun back in my possession.

Steve

bearcatter · April-15-22 07:04

NAA has great service and good turnaround time. I had a major issue with my second Guardian due to a vendor problem. NAA got it sorted out and kept me posted on progress. Problem solved 110%.

Gunznknives · April-15-22 07:04

Quote from: bearcatter on April-15-22 07:04
NAA has great service and good turnaround time. I had a major issue with my second Guardian due to a vendor problem. NAA got it sorted out and kept me posted on progress. Problem solved 110%.

Good to hear...thanks for sharing.

bearcatter · April-15-22 08:04

You're welcome. I know we gun nuts get a little anxious dealing with issues.

Gunznknives · April-20-22 13:04

I'm sorry, I wasn't going to update until I received my gun back but thought I'd share my current experience with NAA customer service.

So, I mailed my Black Widow in last Thursday night and tracking shows that they received it Monday. Great. I decided to politely call customer service today to make sure the gun was received well, and to hopefully get a few answers to questions that I feel a prudent person may ask after returning a gun with a blatant factory defect so quickly after purchasing.

I really hate reporting this, but the woman who I had the pleasure of interacting with, and who did not offer her name, couldn't have come across more disinterested if she tried. At least in my perception, I was treated like a nuisance, as if the matter was an internal inconvenience as opposed to a legitimate customer service issue. I felt that she couldn't get rid of me fast enough.

All I asked was what can I expect, how long do you estimate it taking, and will there be any communication as to the progress? Other than her saying it would take up to 6 weeks and there would be no communication, I really didn't get any assurances I was looking for. I told her 6 weeks would be unacceptable and said I would be happy to pay for return shipping and just get the gun back as is. She abruptly cut me off several times before getting a straight answer. She made me feel that it wasn't a possibility. She did mention that they had 53,000 back orders. Again, that's an internal issue and doesn't address my immediate concerns as a customer.

Anyway, I think I mentioned above that I was very hesitant to send the gun in in the first place, mostly because of my lack of confidence in getting the matter handled properly and in a timely matter. The only reason I sent it in is because I had the pleasure of talking with someone in engineering and they were much more reassuring. Also, the nice people here mentioned the customer service is exemplary. So far I'm not finding that.

I don't know how this is going to end, but if I had to go by today's conversation, it will be a long, aggravating and frustrating experience. I'm glad I decided not to send both guns in at the same time. In fact, I probably will decline in sending the Pug in at all.

RogueTS1 · April-20-22 13:04

Sounds very unlike any of our experience with NAA. They have always been pleasant and quick in turn around times. Of course ................... that was Pre- Covid. We are not sure that there have not been some very big changes since Covid made itself known.

PS: Only and assumption, only a surmise based upon recent past comments. Remember what they say when one assumes.

bearcatter · April-20-22 14:04

I am sorry to hear that, NAA CS is normally excellent. Rarely has someone posted about NAA CS being as you describe. I'm wondering if it's the same woman each time and that's her usual personality. I can't believe NAA would let that continue, though.

It could be the 53,000 back orders. That's a year's production if they're counting each gun as an order. NAA is probably swamped with calls, and maybe too many people had been impatient and ugly that day. I know, my wife did phone CS for over 20 years. Sometimes she had enough of it and got a little short herself. Ugly enough, she'd "accidentally" hang up on them.

53,000 back orders. No wonder you can't find minis or Guardians anywhere, probably sold before they're even made. I thought about a Sheriff or Ranger, before I bought my surplus guns.

Gunznknives · April-20-22 14:04

Yes I find the back order problem interesting and frankly, a good problem to have from a business standpoint. However, the comment had nothing to do with providing solutions to customer issues, namely mine.

I acknowledge that others have mostly found the customer service to be great. I'm trying to be reasonable but I'm finding it difficult. Last week I had to send four or five emails just to be able to talk to someone about my issue, and when I finally did, that person was very attentive and took the time to listen to me. That was the deciding factor for me sending the gun in.

If I don't hear of anything in the next couple weeks, I will try again to just get the gun sent back to me at my expense, of course. I'm hoping my experience is rare. Sounds like it is. Unfortunately, that's all I got to go by. I'm not looking for perfection and I totally understand that companies have problems they must deal with. But to me, there's no excuse for not being kind and polite and attentive on the telephone with customers who spend money on your products. It's very off-putting, at least to me..

FailedFusion · April-20-22 16:04

Sorry to hear about your firearm. It stinks to have to send back a gun especially a new one. Then getting a grumpy CS person kinda sucks.

My best guess is that the person you got on the phone was having a rough day. Also the time line they told you it was going to be repaired in might be a worst case scenario.

I recently sent a firearm to NAA. They received it 3/22 and was returned to me on 3/31. The person I was emailing with was extremely helpful and professional. Hopefully your firearm will be returned as quickly as mine was. I did receive an email with tracking a day or so before fedex picked up the package.

Hope everything gets sorted out.

bearcatter · April-20-22 16:04

I don't think a year's backlog is good for business. Whether a single customer, or a wholesaler, nobody likes to wait more than just so long. Then you have cancelled orders and customers that don't come back.
For myself, quality can suffer when any manufacturer is backlogged. It's not as likely to be 100% of what a company could do when not pressured. Even on the phone. When all the back orders are filled, the warehouse is still empty, and it can be several months before inventory recovers and business is totally back to normal.
I would imagine that all the gun makers are behind, so I have no plans to buy a new gun for at least the next year. Two I just bought are 35-40 years shy of new!

You're right, it doesn't cost a dime to be pleasant and helpful, but we all fail at that once in a while.

Dinadan · April-20-22 18:04

Gunznknives - I would not get too exercised over what the person answering the phones said. There is a distinct possibility that things will go much faster than she implied. And if not ... then get frustrated!

RogueTS1 · April-21-22 08:04

Quotethere's no excuse for not being kind and polite and attentive on the telephone with customers who spend money on your products. It's very off-putting, at least to me..

Truer words have never been spoken. Do not care what kind of day one has been having. Having a bad day may result in less "Sweet and polite" on the phone but it must always still be "Sweet and polite." No excuses accepted.