Pug vs BW for carry

[kurth83]

Some random musings on carry considerations for NAAs.

For starters, my carry criteria are pretty strict: small, light, good sights, quick draw, easy carry, good trigger, basically I can shoot it quickly and accurately.  And I lean towards always-on-me kinds of guns.  Given the size and sight requirements, the Pug and BW seem to be the best carry options in NAA's lineup.  And if size/weight is the primary consideration, the Pug is your friend, and if you want better ballistics with only a nominal size/weight penalty, the BW seems a clear choice.  The larger NAA's get into the same weight category as some very nice 380 ACP semi-autos.  So they don't make sense to me, unless you just want to do that, which is fine as we will see they are pretty decent.  And if you have extreme size/weight requirements, the 22lr consistently pops up as the ideal gun.

So on to our two guns for this topic:

The Pug is a smaller more convenient carry at 6.5 oz, but the 1" barrel limits it's effectiveness from a ballistics standpoint.
The BW is a 2" barrel, and gives us much better ballistics at the cost of 2 oz in weight and 1" in size.  I say 2 oz because it is speced as 3 oz difference, but I can't shoot the pug grip and put on the BW grip which adds an ounce to the Pug (7.5 oz for Pug vs 9.5 oz for BW).  FYI the bullets add 1 oz and my loaded Ruger LCP MAX 380 ACP is about 15 oz loaded with laser (10.5 oz empty no laser).

So our weights when empty/loaded:
22lr             4.5/5.5 oz (~6.5 oz with Holster grip)
Pug              6.5/7.5 oz (8.5 oz with BW grips)
BW              9.5/10.5 oz
LCP MAX      10.5/15 oz.

I read consistently that 22's are effective for defense about 80% of the time a larger caliber would be.  Effective is defined as ending the attack, mostly by driving the attacker(s) away.  Often merely drawing a gun will do that.  That to me is pretty good.  If I had a loved one I would be very happy if they carried a 22 vs nothing.  I would worry more about their ability to draw quickly and get a round reliably on the target than I would about the caliber.

For more data, I searched ammo tests, and found this.

First a straight comparison of barrel lengths vs ballistics (I lost the article for this data):
For the same round, with the 1" barrel as a baseline at 800 fps, the 2" barrel adds almost 300 fps, and another 2" (a 4" barrel) adds only another 150 fps (approximate numbers), so the 2" barrel seems to be the sweet spot.

For the Pug, only the 30 grain CCI is known to expand reliably, from this article:
https://www.tactical-life.com/combat-handguns/north-american-arms-pug-22-mag/
CCI .22 Maxi-Mag TNT
Ballistics show about 1000 fps average, and about 10" of penetration, and modest but reliable expansion.
A 40 gr TMJ give about 16" of penetration, no expansion, and about 800+ fps, and slightly higher muzzle energy.
Given that, I run flat-nose CCI TMJ's in the Pug (Maxi Mags)

For the BW the options get a lot better, as we have rounds designed for 2" barrels:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/#22Mag
The Hornady 45 gr self defense round is my fave, gives consistent expansion and 1100 fps 10-12" penetration.
I like the idea of the heaviest effective bullet since 22 WMR rounds are so light, so I prefer 45 gr over some 40 gr options that have higher velocities.

Calculating the numbers the BW muzzle energy of the 45 gr bullets is about 2/3 of my 380 acp also with Hornady's.
And my 380 acp is about 2/3 the energy of a 9mm FYI.
The Pug with the 30 gr bullet is about 2/3 of the BW.  It gets slightly better (3/4) with the TMJ 40 gr flat-nose rounds.

By my way of thinking, the consistent expansion and energy of the BW makes it almost a carry weapon on it's own, and would seem to cover more than the 80% of the plain 22's.

So maybe it's a 90% gun vs the Pug at 80%?

Now I don't own a BW yet (just a Pug and a 22lr), so the potato chip theory seems to be working on me, as I think I am going to buy a BW after thinking this through, and see how it feels for pocket carry vs the Pug.

What do you guys think about all this?

[kurth83]

Ok, I bought a BW while waiting for the moderator approval.  So now I can review them both.

The extra weight (compared to the 22lr) is felt, but when loaded it's still about 2/3 of my main carry.  It feels nice in the pocket, as in I don't notice it much, which is what I was looking for.

The fixed sights are great, I love the very visible 3 white dots (would prefer night sights though).

I couldn't find any Hornady 45 gr ammo, so I ordered some Speer gold dot 40 gr, should be fine.

Here is the new baby, with it's holster:

[Canoeal]

I think this was the article you were looking for; https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/6/8/the-22-magnum-for-self-defense

I too went through all those evaluations and landed on the BW for my first. I have loads of data on the performances as tested everywhere I could find them. Where I ended up was with two a BW and a 1 5/8" Wasp. I also landed on Gold Dots as my primary ammo for these two, and Hornady CD for my 4" barreled Charter Arms Pathfinder. The longer barrel gives the Hornady time to get up to effective velocity. JMHO

I have no use for a Pug as it must have the lowest velocity, muzzle energy and effectiveness of all the 22 mags.

[coppertop]

Owned both and find the Black Widow more comfortable to carry.

The Pug feels heavier due to the smaller footprint. But while the Black Widow is heavier, the longer body distributes the weight where it feels lighter. The Pug has more muzzle flip, slower second shot recovery and a punchier feel due to the shorter barrel. The Black Widow is a "softer" shooter and I had better second shot recovery.

While I like the sights on the Black Widow better, these are point/shoot weapons for close range. You may use the sights at the range, but in real life situations they probably will not come into play. Same with ballistics. These two handguns are close enough and the application kinda tosses any ballistic differences out the window.

Which is better? For me the Black Widow but others may see things differently and be 100% correct if they prefer the Pug. It is rare to find a "one size fits all" firearm. It's more common to find a firearm that everyone should shy away from. The trick is finding the firearm that fits you the best. No wrong answer with these two guns.

[KEN AR]

Well I have the Black Widow and also had a few 1 5/8" Magnum Mini's. The Mini's have been rehomed to my Son in Law and my best friend.  I like to share the good things in life!

I carry the BW daily and it has many miles on it.  It is my constant carry.  I have LCP's, Smith J Frames, Glocks and lots of other EDC type guns.
You made a great choice in my opinion.

Now for personal carry I like Desert Gun Leather holsters and CVANG Revision grips.  The grips to me are less bulky than the original and also provide a little longer grip surface and angle.

[pietro]

.

IMO, BW all the way.....

[Rick_Jorgenson]

I carry both. Sometimes at the same time! lol!!

Some would say I'm "not well"! lol!

[kurth83]

I carry both. Sometimes at the same time! lol!!

Some would say I'm "not well"! lol!

I like it, if you want more than five shots, or ability to draw with either hand, two makes sense to me. :-)

Also, with regard to how the BW vs Pug feels in the pocket, I have found the choice of holster greatly affects that, so I try to find holsters that are padded and feel comfortable and still allows for a consistent quick draw.  I had a too-small holster for the Pug and it was also really uncomfortable.  A larger one that covered more of the gun helped.

[kbuzbee]

 Agree 100%

Just fyi - currently carrying in this Sticky

https://stickyholsters.com/sm-1-naa-pug-small-sticky-holster.html

Works a treat. Comfortable in shorts, sweatpants? whatever.

Ken

[Uncle_Lee]

I carry a Pug and a Black Widow. At times I add another Black Widow.
Mechanical devices can, and will, fail. I feel more comfortable with a spare. 

[top dog]

Uncle Lee,
You are so right!!  And things do fail at the worst time. Murphy's law is alive and well.

There are pros and cons about the laser sights and stuff. But,batteries have a habit of going dead at the worst time.

                                                                                Top Dog

[Rick_Jorgenson]

I carry a Pug and a Black Widow. At times I add another Black Widow.
Mechanical devices can, and will, fail. I feel more comfortable with a spare.

Very true, failure can and will happen 

For me... Summer carry is usually 2 Mini Revolvers sometimes 3

This month has been a 1 1/8" Wasp in a Pancake Holster and a 1 1/8" Magnum in a pocket Holster, and a Pug in a Driving Holster on occasion (not every day)

Last month was the 4" Ranger in a Pancake Holster with the same Magnum in the Pocket (traded the Ranger for a Black Widow a few days)

When I carry a 1911 a Black Widow is in a Pocket Holster. I tell people the 1911 is BUG for the Black Widow! lol!!

[RogueTS1]

I tell people the 1911 is BUG for the Black Widow! lol!!

[Uncle_Lee]

Even the best, most expensive 1911 can fail.
Nothing built by man is above failure.

[top dog]

Uncle Lee,
You got that right for sure!!!!

And.....just when you think that things cannot get any worse........................they do.

                                                                          Top Dog

[RogueTS1]

The world is a rough place and things, made by man's hand, are often times not tough enough to cope. Thus in the case of Arms, we come to the philosophy so espoused by Uncle Lee as well as many others around here and the world; the New York reload or a BUG.

If it breaks down, reach for number two! 

[Uncle_Lee]

Well they are small enough that if I am carrying 3 or so, I won't strain my spine.

[Gunznknives]

In the Summer I carry both, but usually not at the same time. I'll use one or the other as a backup to a snub revolver or G26 depending on clothes, pocket size, etc..

[theysayimnotme]

I have the slip on rubber grips on my Black widow & think it feels better than any of the over sized grips. The rubber grip provides a good purchase without the huge size & weight penalty.

[bluecow]

Sorry you're all wrong.  It's the Bugout II that's the sweet spot

[Rick_Jorgenson]

Sorry you're all wrong.  It's the Bugout II that's the sweet spot

Good Point!

The Bugout is often forgotten and under-rated 

[Uncle_Lee]

Everyone should drive a Chevy.   

[tinhorn]

Sorry you're all wrong.  It's the Bugout II that's the sweet spot

There's one on Gunbroker but the guy doesn't know if it has a 1-5/8" or a 2" barrel, and he claims it's WMR even though the picture shows a Long Rifle gun. I don't know if I could own a gun with a barrel that ugly.

How would you guys compare a 2" BW to a 2.5" Sheriff?

[Bigbird48]

yea the bugout is a great little gun and having one is whats keeps me from getting the way overpriced Pug LOL

But the BW all the way

[bearcatter]

Would you rather carry this ?


Or this ?

[Canoeal]

 I don't own a Sheriff, as the BW is the longest one the will fit in the pocket in which I carry it. I do like the gun, and it fits with my "longer is better" philosophy. I just can't make it fit in my Dickies...
BTW I made my own wooden grips for the BW. They are a little smaller, lighter and being wood, better looking than the rubber grips. They are still two finger grips.

[Rick_Jorgenson]

Sorry you're all wrong.  It's the Bugout II that's the sweet spot

There's one on Gunbroker but the guy doesn't know if it has a 1-5/8" or a 2" barrel, and he claims it's WMR even though the picture shows a Long Rifle gun. I don't know if I could own a gun with a barrel that ugly.

How would you guys compare a 2" BW to a 2.5" Sheriff?

The gun may be marked "Long Rifle" but he might of sent it in and had the Magnum cylinder fitted (then the listing should have both cylinders)

I believe all of the original 1500 (with orange grips) are marked LR. The Bugout II could be ordered with either cylinder or with both (and had Black grips)

As far as a comparison... I find I have the desire to carry the Black Widow, habit, maybe? (I just bought a Sheriff a couple months ago)

I need to build a Holster for the Sheriff! 

[tinhorn]

I need to build a Holster for the Sheriff! 

Yes. Yes, you do.