time for something new?

[tinhorn]

  I wish NAA would come up with a adjustable shoulder arm harness to attach to any mini to make it a mini rifle .Would look great on a Hogleg Earl for instance .  Just go ahead and send me mine in the mail for the suggestion, Jessica , Ha ,Ha . REALLY !!!

It's been done.

[OV-1D]

 NAA hasn't made one , this is a nice piece but NAA could do one better with wood accents . 

[Uncle_Lee]

Snooper and Uncle Lee -  I think we've all given fair assessments. I guess my Guardian will remain in the minority. It's just contradictory that the biggest complaint is the weight, yet there are lots of people who have no problem carrying a 3 pound (loaded) 1911. I don't understand that. A loaded P-32 is 9 ounces, but my Guardian's 15 are worth the pluses to me. A .380 Guardian is 21 loaded, that's getting heavy.

My Zastavas are 26 ounces loaded, size of a PPK, and I would find both a bit much for concealed. It's fine OWB.

I don't understand the weight problem either.
I walked around and worked for 35 years with a 15 pound or more tool pouch around my waist.
I couldn't tell if there was an extra screwdriver or two in the pouch.

[bearcatter]

I just weighed everything in my pockets, 15.7 ounces.

$2 change in a zip leather purse, 6 ounces. Keys 3.8. Wallet 3.5. Pocket knife 2.2. Comb 0.2. FWIW, my Carhartt belt weighs 7.6 oz..

That's a pound and a half. Same as 2 cans of Coke. Do I notice it? Only when something gets crooked and pokes me. If I focused on it, it would bother me. I think that's what some concealed carry people do.

I wonder what a cop's duty rig weighs? Even with lighter nylon gear, it's gotta be 10 lb or more.

[bill_deshivs]

I have told this story before.
I broke the hammer spring in my P32 watching a video on how to remove it. Video was wrong. It was the Christmas season and Keltec was shut down for the holidays.
So- I put my .32 Guardian in my pocket and went to work. By lunch time, I went to my buddy's pawn shop and bought another P32! The Guardian is just too heavy to pocket carry. IWB carry would be no problem. We now have 4-5 P32s around here-and 1 Guardian.

[Craigt]

I am not highly educated in anything about fire arms.  So please educate me. 

If the 25 ACP was designed to have similar ballistics to the 22 (LR?) why is it so often said to be far inferior to the 22 LR and Magnum?

Is there room in a 25 ACP to make a +P?

[RogueTS1]

I am not highly educated in anything about fire arms.  So please educate me. 

If the 25 ACP was designed to have similar ballistics to the 22 (LR?) why is it so often said to be far inferior to the 22 LR and Magnum?

Is there room in a 25 ACP to make a +P?

Those claims are made based upon the .22's being fired from rifles, as they were designed for. When one compares the .22 LR to the 6.35mm/.25 acp in small pistols, as the 6.35mm was designed for, the ballistics are very, very close. Center fire cartridges are always more reliable than rimfire cartridges.

[bearcatter]

Would you rather shoot 5.6?15mmR or 6.35?16mmSR ?  That's the metric designations for .22LR and .25 ACP. Sound more impressive, don't they? ...  .... more useful, too.

[dinooch]

I have a Gen 1 P32 and now a new to me 32acp Guardian. They are truly different guns the only thing common is the caliber. (obviously) My Kel Tec P32 has never failed to feed or fire. I had one of their PF9 models a great light flat drop in the pocket "jammamatic" a real disappointment. My Kel Tec KS7 bullpup shotgun is amazing and my answer to the AR15 being in tyrannous New York.

My Guardian is rapidly finding a place in my rotation I'm one expensive box of 32acp away from trusting it. I have several guns they are all different but I believe if they work properly they stay if not they go bye bye no matter the manufacturer.

I'm really excited about the Guardian and my 22LR Mini revolver they are both game changers for me especially the mini "the gun to have when you can't have a gun".

[RogueTS1]

Would you rather shoot 5.6?15mmR or 6.35?16mmSR ?

We will take the 6.35 mm all day long in a small pistol. Plus we can easily reload for it also. 

[Craigt]

Is it possible to load a 25 ACP in +p?

[Canoeal]

I am not highly educated in anything about fire arms.  So please educate me. 

If the 25 ACP was designed to have similar ballistics to the 22 (LR?) why is it so often said to be far inferior to the 22 LR and Magnum?

Is there room in a 25 ACP to make a +P?

Those claims are made based upon the .22's being fired from rifles, as they were designed for. When one compares the .22 LR to the 6.35mm/.25 acp in small pistols, as the 6.35mm was designed for, the ballistics are very, very close. Center fire cartridges are always more reliable than rimfire cartridges.

Not really: There are/were apples to apples tests,check the test here: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/?fbclid=IwAR1_z_cEvnVykdpz-B7vR_mE_uwb_xHPREYuTwh2eegxwDyBRmuNQ-dnWqs#22Mag

[RogueTS1]

Not really: There are/were apples to apples tests,check the test here:

First we must consider the segment's quote in the third paragraph of the .22 section. It says a lot about the comparison being, "apples to apples."

The size of the pistol also plays an important role. In our tests, even with the small jump in barrel length between the S&W snubby and the Ruger Mark IV, there was significant improvement in bullet performance in the gel.

They used larger and more modern guns with longer barrels while testing the .22LR. A Ruger Mk IV with 4" barrel and a S&W 43 C with a 2" barrel. (The revolver barrel measurement does not include the cylinder travel in said measurement. Hence the 2" barrel is actually a bit longer.) A Beretta 950 BS with a 2.4" barrel was used for the .25 acp. These are not truly "apples to apples" comparisons.

All that put aside; if we average the longer than 2" barrel traveled S&W 43 C with the 2.4" barrel traveled Beretta 950 BS we come up with penetrations of 11.29" for the .22 LR and 11.56" for the .25 acp. In our book, and we would expect many others' books, "the ballistics are very, very close." 

Does this seem "apples to apples?" S&W 43 C vs Beretta 950 BS?

[5_shooter]

I personally don't pay any attention to the ballistics of these little guns. They're all gut shooters imo. And I would not want to be shot with any of them. The most important thing is that they fire when you pull the trigger. If you are aware of your surroundings, hopefully you won't have to pull the trigger.

[RogueTS1]

True, very true.

[pietro]

  I wish NAA would come up with a adjustable shoulder arm harness to attach to any mini to make it a mini rifle .Would look great on a Hogleg Earl for instace .  Just go ahead and send me mine in the mail for the suggestion, Jessica , Ha ,Ha . REALLY !!!

It's been done.

FWIW, I wrote NAA about making a bicycle rifle (with pics) over 20 years ago, and got a reply that (#1) "they were less than interested" and (#2) "our production lines are so full that we don't want an additional production line".

Then, much later introduced both the NAA top-break and the side opener'


.

[Canoeal]

I am not highly educated in anything about fire arms.  So please educate me. 

If the 25 ACP was designed to have similar ballistics to the 22 (LR?) why is it so often said to be far inferior to the 22 LR and Magnum?

Is there room in a 25 ACP to make a +P?

Those claims are made based upon the .22's being fired from rifles, as they were designed for. When one compares the .22 LR to the 6.35mm/.25 acp in small pistols, as the 6.35mm was designed for, the ballistics are very, very close. Center fire cartridges are always more reliable than rimfire cartridges.

And :'Those claims are made based upon the .22's being fired from rifles, as they were designed for. When one compares the .22 LR to the 6.35mm/.25 acp in small pistols, as the 6.35mm was designed for, the ballistics are very, very close. Center fire cartridges are always more reliable than rimfire cartridges."

"Apples to apples" was in response to the nonsense of claiming the data was based on rounds fired from rifles. Actually the ruger "2" (.22 wmr) is 1 7/8" barrel and the 25 ACP Jetfire in question was a 2.4" in barrel...Maybybe we could find a comparision of an NAA Wasp with both cylinders or a Sherrif vs, that Jetfire....Hmmm...And BTW the question asked about both the LR and WMR; you chose to answer only ther weaker of the two.

[RogueTS1]

in response to the nonsense of claiming the data was based on rounds fired from rifles.

No nonsense here. When people hear claims of the .22 LR being ballistically superior to the 6.35 mm/ .25 acp it is due to stats from .22 rifles being used against stats for 6.35mm/.25 acp small pistols. It is not based upon this single Lucky Gunner test. If we look at the Lucky Gunner testing we see that the results were very similar, not "far inferior to the .22 LR" as originally perused.

We purposely disregarded commenting on the .22 Mag round in this discussion due to the fact that everybody knows that Browning did not design the 6.35 mm/.25 acp to circumvent the negative aspects of the .22 Mag. but rather the .22 LR only. The .22 Mag round is much more powerful than the 6.35 mm/.25 acp, but if we look at the Mag's numbers out of the supposed 2" barreled revolver it only scores an average of 14" of gel penetration compared to the other two. More, but not really that much more. 

PS: Now if a revolver with a length close to 2.4"; made up of barrel length plus any extra cylinder travel; we would give you that it was an "apples to apples" test.

[Canoeal]

But you need to face the reality the guns out there, made for .25 acp are all seemingly in range of barrels of less thsan 2.5", as you descibe, with the chambers included. It would seem then that you would need to compare both the round and the guns out there for it. That a BW has a 2" barrel, based from the forcing cone, is a logical comparison, since it is readily available...JMHO

You can't make the guns match, because of the gases lost at the forcing cone. I think the only true test is ammo out of an existing gun. Either that, or eliminate the guns all together and fire them through the same length of test barrel Like BBTI.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22mag.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/25auto.html

[RogueTS1]

Very true Canoeal. Since the topic is the rounds, we believe your idea

or eliminate the guns all together and fire them through the same length of test barrel Like BBTI.

would be the only way to truly compare apples to apples.

PS: While it would not be strictly scientific; Using a Beretta 21a in .22 LR and another in 6.35mm could give some interesting results. 

[Craigt]

(My posts take several days to, um, post because I am still on probation.  So my question gets bypassed.  Sorry for multiple posts with the same question.)

Please forgive my ignorance.  Is there room in the 25 ACP cartridge to add a bit more powder, making a +P?  The Beretta Bobcat looks like it could handle a +P.

[PaducahMichael]

Oops....I looked right past "Vaquero" and was thinking DA revolver.....

Here's the Vaquero - it's a single action, but I don't see how that changes the discussion.

[PaducahMichael]

For me, the 45acp was a good thing because I can share ammo with other guns I own. Do not own anything for .45 long Colt. Bsides that I thought it was pretty!

[Canoeal]

It is...

[Uncle_Lee]

New additions.
A pair of Star 25acp's. I thought they were cute.
I put a Black Widow in with they for size comparison. 
we took down the Christmas decorations but just couldn't take this one down. Too beautiful.

[RogueTS1]

We like those Stars Uncle Lee. Not sure if we have any in our collection. They appear somewhat familiar though. 

[Armybrat]

As long as we?re showing off birdsheads?.

[Ozark75]

Did someone say birdsheads?

[Uncle_Lee]

Mine didn't have birdsheads.

[Armybrat]

Forgot these tiny ones.

[Ozark75]

I like that single shot @armybrat. Every time I see one pop up, I think about buying...just haven't pulled the trigger yet.

[Naa NinJA]

Ozark75 buy one they go great in a collection of minis I got the earl svendsen little ace it's small and interesting but not real practical,but I still like it

[Uncle_Lee]

Coffee is good this morning.
Nice pictures.
Thank You All

[Ozark75]

Ozark75 buy one they go great in a collection of minis I got the earl svendsen little ace it's small and interesting but not real practical,but I still like it

Have a pic?

[RogueTS1]

Like that lower SAA style shopkeeper Armybrat.