time for something new?

[Craigt]

Looks like this is my last post in probation.  Presumably I can engage in normal discussion after this.

[Canoeal]

Congrats! Welcome to the nut-house...

[Naa NinJA]

Congrats! Welcome to the nut-house...

there isn't anything wrong with being nuts ....
Ok depends on the day and how crazy

[Craigt]

Now that I am off probation I will try once again to ask a question and hopefully it will not get burried and missed.

Please forgive my ignorance as I am not highly learned about ballistics.  Can a 25 ACP be loaded as a +P?

The Beretta Bobcat looks like it could handle that and it might make a very effective small gun.

[RogueTS1]

Can a 25 ACP be loaded as a +P?

Theoretically yes; what those numbers may be is a different story.

[5_shooter]

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember something about the Berettas frame cracking. Just my opinion, but if there is a need to load +p in any caliber, it's time to go to a bigger gun. A good excuse as any to add to the collection.

[bearcatter]

The .32 ACP Tomcat had the frame cracking issue. They supposedly fixed it by making the slide heavier to slow it down (?).

The .22 LR Bobcat is not dependable. I've had 2 of them, Fails to feed and fails to eject. They run about 90% with round nose Mini-Mags.

[5_shooter]

I also had many problems with my bobcat. Tried for years to get it to run. Sometimes it would run like a swiss watch. Most times not. Finally gave up. Bought Ruger LCP II .22 and have been happy with it. Finally a small 22 that actually works.

[bearcatter]

I think with an extractor and a less steep feed ramp, the Bobcat would be okay. I was hoping they'd be adequate for SD, but no way that was going to happen.

[Wumbey Goomba]

I have a 21a, 22 lr that has never missed a beat,
with bulk Federal ammo. I guess I am lucky.

[Canoeal]

Now that I am off probation I will try once again to ask a question and hopefully it will not get burried and missed.

Please forgive my ignorance as I am not highly learned about ballistics.  Can a 25 ACP be loaded as a +P?

The Beretta Bobcat looks like it could handle that and it might make a very effective small gun.

Yes, ity is called thwe 25NAA. good luck finding any...

[bill_deshivs]

The Beretta 950 and model 20 were .25 ACP.
They were smaller and more reliable than the model 21.

[TruthTellers]

First off, to answer the question of the topic, yes it is time for NAA to introduce something new and not just produce the same product in a different variation.

I don't think there is much interest in a two shot derringer, Bond Arms pretty much has that segment of the market locked up and even the Davis/Cobra/Bearman derringers would sell more due to the low price. I also don't see the .25 as a viable choice anymore, it's an obsolete cartridge from a time when to make the smallest semi auto reliable required a centerfire primer. Today pistols as small as the old .25's can be made in .32.

I am encouraged to see there is a sizeable number here in this topic that want something in .32 caliber and I would like to see that as well, I made my thoughts known in the Young America topic I made, but in addition to the .32, I would support a .22 version as well since a smaller than an I or J frame .22 double action would be very popular and sell more than the .32 version, but if both the .22 and .32 were to use the same frame and other parts, the sales of the .22 would be enough to justify also making the .32 as well given it's more powerful.

Basically, size whatever this revolver is for .32 and offer a .22 as well with an extra round, just like the Young America was.

I don't think that if NAA made a revolver along the lines of the Young America that it would make the mini revolvers useless or unfavorably as the minis (especially the .22 LR only models) would still be a smaller revolver. If NAA did make their own Young America they would be the largest revolvers NAA has ever made, yet they would still be smaller than any other revolvers currently produced.

Someone mentioned a .32 Black Widow... I don't see an even larger version of that revolver that is single action only would have much appeal. People are willing to accept the single action spur trigger of the current NAA minis because that's what's required to get something in such a small size. Go larger and people lose interest in such a design.

We have to keep in mind that while NAA is a quality firearms manufacturer, they are not some huge company like S&W or Ruger, thus whatever they make an investment in it has to sell. IDK how the Ranger II has been doing, NAA put a lot of time and money in the R&D for that, but it didn't exactly set the gun world on fire. A reliable DA/SA or DAO revolver as small as the Young America tho, that would get people's attention and sell.

[Uncle_Lee]

Double action, 22 or 32??
I will take a pair with consecutive serial numbers.
Go ahead and get me started again.
I have only about 30 minis left.
I NEED to get started again.
Little 25's are hurting my wallet.

[OV-1D]

  Hurting the wallet Unc , I've taken up my coin collection again and behold talk about hurting . You guys would not believe what fifty cent pieces are going for especially commemoratives coins . You need a gun to buy them .

[Uncle_Lee]

  Hurting the wallet Unc , I've taken up my coin collection again and behold talk about hurting . You guys would not believe what fifty cent pieces are going for especially commemoratives coins . You need a gun to buy them .

How about 1964 silver dollars?
How about 1942 silver dollars?

[bearcatter]

I posted in the "Young America" thread about NAA's production hitting the saturation point with a shrinking market. They need to find a new direction to keep a good bottom line.

Coins? My wife had a bunch of coins as "investments". She had roughly 200 modern silver dollars, silver dimes, proof sets. One gold proof set. She bought all of it between 2006-2010. I sold it all for $8K last year. I figure with the buyer's percentage, that made about $2K more than she paid. I have to consider that that the dealers she bought from had marked up for their profit. You get hit when you buy, and when you sell. I'm wondering how that affects my taxes this year, not sure if it has to be reported or how. It won't affect my taxable dollars, with my survivor's standard deduction.

Myself, I've got a 1925 Peace Dollar and 2 Morgans stuck away. The Morgans are 1900, and the one year reissue 1921. There were no silver dollars from 1905 through 1920. I have a 1969 Kennedy half, the last full year that had silver. What, you say? The silver content was reduced in 1965 from 90% to 40%.

[bill_deshivs]

You can not make a .32 caliber pistol as small as you can make a .25 caliber pistol. It's simple physics.

While there are small .32 acp pistols that are as small as a large .25, you are comparing apples to oranges. If you compare a Keltec .32 to a Browning, Bernardelli, or Walther model 9 .25, you will see a considerable difference in size. If Keltec built a P 25 sized to the .25 (like the .32) it would be smaller than the P32.

While the .25 is not the most powerful cartridge, it has worked for well over 100 years. It's certainly not obsolete.

While you could theoretically make a .22 lr pistol thinner than a .25, it could not be shorter in length-and you still have all the problems that the rimfire cartridge inherently has.

[OV-1D]

  Hurting the wallet Unc , I've taken up my coin collection again and behold talk about hurting . You guys would not believe what fifty cent pieces are going for especially commemoratives coins . You need a gun to buy them .

How about 1964 silver dollars?
How about 1942 silver dollars?

   1942 silver dollars are worth plenty considering its a dollar lets say average worn its about 25-28 bucks the nicer the coin the bigger the price up to hundreds of bucks if untouched kinda and in those plastic capsules. Now 1964 didn't have silver dollar so to say but the Kennedy halves came that way as for silver dollars the Eisenhower dollar has come into view with only a smaller portion like 40% silver is used . From 1936 to 1970 there were no coined dollars made . Myself I'm collecting commemorative and standard issue half dollars from the 1900-1964 . Commemorative dollars also . $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Wish I could go back and buy them for face worth .     HEY !!!!! If anybody on here bidding against me on E-BAY for these coins CUT IT OUT RIGHT NOW THANK YOU VERY MUCH . 

[TruthTellers]

I posted in the "Young America" thread about NAA's production hitting the saturation point with a shrinking market. They need to find a new direction to keep a good bottom line.

This was something I was thinking about, but didn't get around to discussing, but yes, with how many mini revolvers that NAA has made, there's going to reach a point that people will easily find a cheaper mini revolver for less than a new one, especially if it's a common model. I bought my MiniMaster and combo .22 Mag/LR new because the Minimaster is hard to find used for less and the combo models are cheap enough to warrant getting new as I know I'm getting two cylinders plus the nice lockbox with it. I have a hankering for the .22 LR only NAA and if I can get one used, I'll take it. Same goes for the Sidewinder.

NAA can't just continue to rely on the mini revolvers because there will reach a point it reaches peak sales. New products will need to be introduced that are radically different than the single action mini.

[TruthTellers]

You can not make a .32 caliber pistol as small as you can make a .25 caliber pistol. It's simple physics.

While there are small .32 acp pistols that are as small as a large .25, you are comparing apples to oranges. If you compare a Keltec .32 to a Browning, Bernardelli, or Walther model 9 .25, you will see a considerable difference in size. If Keltec built a P 25 sized to the .25 (like the .32) it would be smaller than the P32.

While the .25 is not the most powerful cartridge, it has worked for well over 100 years. It's certainly not obsolete.

While you could theoretically make a .22 lr pistol thinner than a .25, it could not be shorter in length-and you still have all the problems that the rimfire cartridge inherently has.

The question is who is buying these .25's tho? It's already believed by many that anything smaller than .380 is ineffective, then for people to go below .32 it would defy normal thought patterns while for people to choose a .25 over a .22 would mean they're spending 4x as much on ammo.

If the .25 wasn't obsolete, there would be more companies than Taurus, Beretta, and some holdover Ring of Fire companies still making one. The only reason the Phoenix, Raven, Jennings, and others still sell is because they're small and cheaper than a Hi Point.

[Uncle_Lee]

I am buying .25acp's.
Not to carry, but because they are so cute and cuddly.
I have bought 5 in the past 3 months.

Here is a pair of Star CO's with a Black Widow for size comparison.
And a Christmas decoration that refuse to take down.

[bearcatter]

If the .25 wasn't obsolete, there would be more companies than Taurus, Beretta, and some holdover Ring of Fire companies still making one. The only reason the Phoenix, Raven, Jennings, and others still sell is because they're small and cheaper than a Hi Point.

The Ring Of Fire is gone. Phoenix is hanging by one finger making one pistol in .22 and .25.

Raven is long gone, and Jennings went though four bankruptcies before it disappeared into JA Industries, along with Bryco and Jiminez. Throw in Davis and Lorcin going under. Then the ATF shut down JA for connections to gun traffickers.  All of these eight companies had ties to George Jennings or his family. Phoenix was started by his ex-wife and is now run by a son, IIRC.

[bill_deshivs]

Regardless if any new guns are offered in .25, there are literally many millions already out there.

[RogueTS1]

you are comparing apples to oranges

See, we told you so weeks ago!   

I am buying .25acp's.
Not to carry, but because they are so cute and cuddly.

We are right there with Uncle Lee. We just have a thing for small 6.35mm/.25 acp pistols. (Just a few of them offered as proof)

[Rick_Jorgenson]

I am buying .25acp's.
Not to carry, but because they are so cute and cuddly.
I have bought 5 in the past 3 months.

Here is a pair of Star CO's with a Black Widow for size comparison.
And a Christmas decoration that refuse to take down.

Great little guns!

Did Cindy put the Door Jingle Bells around your neck to keep track of you? 

[Uncle_Lee]

I am buying .25acp's.
Not to carry, but because they are so cute and cuddly.
I have bought 5 in the past 3 months.

Here is a pair of Star CO's with a Black Widow for size comparison.
And a Christmas decoration that refuse to take down.

Great little guns!

Did Cindy put the Door Jingle Bells around your neck to keep track of you? 

Only one day then she hung them on my computer cabinet where they will stay until I am no longer....

[Wumbey Goomba]

Check out the new Chiappa Little Badger model.( break down)
About as minimalist as it gets.
Them the new Beretta 80x and 3032,21a models.
I am really liking the Bronze 80x. I think that?s going
to be my next victim.

[Rick_Jorgenson]

Check out the new Chiappa Little Badger model.( break down)
About as minimalist as it gets.
Them the new Beretta 80x and 3032,21a models.
I am really liking the Bronze 80x. I think that?s going
to be my next victim.

The Little Badger is a great little gun!

I have the .22 Long Rifle version and the .17HMR version

Both are outstanding light weight little rifles

[chutethemall]

Can a 25 ACP be loaded as a +P?

No, and for the same reason there isn't a SAAMI approved .45 Colt in +p. 
SAAMI forbids it, because it would destroy Grandpa's 100 year old antique and put your eye out.
And the ghetto grenades in zinc pot metal would ruin that special Saturday Night.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/saami-and-p/

[DannyCo]

Check out the new Chiappa Little Badger model.( break down)
About as minimalist as it gets.
Them the new Beretta 80x and 3032,21a models.
I am really liking the Bronze 80x. I think that?s going
to be my next victim.

The Little Badger is a great little gun!

I have the .22 Long Rifle version and the .17HMR version

Both are outstanding light weight little rifles

Yep, seconding those. Great bang for the buck, have one in .22 LR!

A bit of offnote, but which leather holsters can you guys recommend aside from galco? Kinda grew tired of kydex, but can't find anything decent for my glock( and most guides like https://gritrsports.com/guides-tutorials/ only list galco pretty much...)

[TruthTellers]

Regardless if any new guns are offered in .25, there are literally many millions already out there.

All the more reason that if someone bothered to start making one besides Beretta and Taurus, they would struggle to sell them. If they made a .32 in the LCP size there would be a market for it because only Kel Tec has made that pistol for the past 25 years.

And I don't want to hear a garbage excuse that "if more people bought the P32 then other manufacturers would have made one" because Kel Tec has always suffered from being able to make enough product to meet demand. Frankly, there's still a sizeable portion of the gun buying community that refuses to buy a Kel Tec because so many repeat the lie that Kel Tec can't make a gun that works.

[bearcatter]

Regardless if any new guns are offered in .25, there are literally many millions already out there.

All the more reason that if someone bothered to start making one besides Beretta and Taurus, they would struggle to sell them. If they made a .32 in the LCP size there would be a market for it because only Kel Tec has made that pistol for the past 25 years.

And I don't want to hear a garbage excuse that "if more people bought the P32 then other manufacturers would have made one" because Kel Tec has always suffered from being able to make enough product to meet demand. Frankly, there's still a sizeable portion of the gun buying community that refuses to buy a Kel Tec because so many repeat the lie that Kel Tec can't make a gun that works.

NAA has made the .32 Guardian for 26 years. It's smaller than a LCP, and 5 oz heavier. A little larger and 7 oz heavier than the Kel-Tec. The .32 Tomcat is larger and heavier than all three. I'll still take the solid stainless. If your typical shooter, and the gun makers, really studied the details, there would be more 32s than 380s.

Besides the Guardians, I have .32 ACP Zastava pistols I really like. Very similar to the Colt 1903, which was also .32 ACP. It stayed in production for 43 years.

[bill_deshivs]

PSA is still making a boutique version of the Browning .25.
In the US, bigger is always better, right or wrong.

[bearcatter]

I've posted the PSA Baby a few times. Made under license from FN, uses Browning specs and the parts interchange. Unbelieveable number of options (and prices). If Uncle Lee got into them he'd be bankrupt...