time for something new?

[Anvil]

 We all love NAA or we wouldn't be here. The top quality craftsmanship of their mini arms really makes a difference to us enthusiasts. However it might be time for an upgrade to keep the beloved company progressing and prospering.  I suggest moving up on calibers from the famed mini revolvers. A 25 ACP or even the 32 has much more impact than the venerable 22 mag. It might require a frame update or an overall design change but it might be worth it in the long run. I personally could handle a little more bulk on my belt to saunter about with a little more power. My Iraq veteran son-in-law once asked me if 5 shots from a 22 was more effective than 2 shots from a 32. I did not know
the answer but agreed two shots were better than 5!
So my question would be can a 2 shot 32 cal. NAA hand gun be better than a 5 shot 22 mag revolver? 

[bearcatter]

One point -  A .32 ACP, is not designed for a revolver. It only has half as much rim as a revolver cartridge like .32 S&W or S&W Long. They are both scarce old designs that are difficult find. Moving up to other .32s, you're approaching .38 Special territory.

Ballistically, a .25 ACP is worse than .22LR, and definitely no match for .22 WMR. Again, it's not a revolver round. Being semi-rimmed, both .25 ACP and .32 ACP will work in a revolver that's chambered well, but I view it as a less than desirable match. The .380 is rimless and won't function in a revolver.

I'd like to see them downgrade one gun and make a .22LR Guardian. I've been wishing that for 4 years. I've got a pile of 2-6 cpr .22 and would rather practice shoot it instead of my 60 cpr .32 ACP. I rarely shoot my Guardians because of ammo cost and iffy availability.

[Anvil]

I appreciate your input Bearcater but question if the 45 ACP can be made into a revolver why can't other ACP calibers be done as the same?
From what I've seen from my own experience the 25 caliber leaves a bigger hole in targets than my 22 mags although they didn't pernitrate  as deep. I reckon if I had to choose I'd select the 22 Mag only because of availability.

[bearcatter]

A revolver in .45 ACP requires moon clips because it has no rim. Each clip snaps onto three cartridges and functions as a rim. Any gun that's engineered for .45 would no longer be mini. Out of the practical choices, 22 Mag is still best for SD with a small revolver.

A little history - The .25 ACP was designed by John Browning to be a centerfire .22 LR, for more dependable ignition. .25 was his limit because of the size of primers. It turned out to have lower velocity and energy, but still adequate for a "vest pocket" pistol. It actually came along in 1905, after the 1899 .32 ACP, which was Browning's first pistol cartridge. The .22 Magnum didn't appear until 1959, hence the ,22 WMR name, Winchester Magnum Rimfire.

[Anvil]

So the 25 cal. was adequate for a "vest pocket" pistol. Isn't that what we ae all abut? 

[Uncle_Lee]

So the 25 cal. was adequate for a "vest pocket" pistol. Isn't that what we ae all abut? 

Yep, that is what we are all about. (just like the Hookie Pookie)
Any pistol cartridge, rimmed, semi rimmed, no rim, can be made to fire in a revolver. Just headspace it on the cartridge case mouth.
The problem is in the extraction. Which is no problem because on a mini you remove the cylinder and poke out the spent cartridge. Well, except for the sidewinder and the Break Tops.
I would like to see a .32 acp Black Widow.

Here we go again.
I want a consecutive pair of:

.32 acp Black Widow !!!!!!!

But I am happy where we are.

[bearcatter]

I thought you had the hots for your .25 pistols?

I want a .22 LR Guardian....I want a .22 LR Guardian.....I want a .22 LR Guardian.....

[top dog]

Why bother with a 32 auto cartridge when you can use a 32 S&W (short) which has a rim on the cartridge case.

Bring out a gun for it and the factories will retool up to bring out the cartridge again.

                                                                                                   Top Dog

[bearcatter]

Maybe....I wouldn't hold my breath...

You'd think there are enough .32 ACP pistols still manufactured, plus thousands of older ones, to keep the cartridge in higher production, but it's not. American brand .32 ACP is very scarce, all I've seen is Remington and Federal.There's a lot more of the foreign, but it's still hit and miss. I've got 7K rounds. I have TWO boxes of Remington. The rest is Aguila, PPU, and PMC. Mexico, Serbia, and Korea.

Over 150 handgun models have been made specifically for it. There is estimated info that just the one importer of my Zastavas started with 3000 of them five years ago.

[bill_deshivs]

The .22 LR is not exactly more powerful than the .25 acp. Most ballistic information for the .22 is from rifle-length barrels.
Drop that to a 2" barrel, and the .25 generally comes out ahead.

Tell Taurus the .380 won't work in a revolver!

[bearcatter]

Maybe they come out about the same. .22 mag still beats them both.

The .380 Taurus requires special "Stellar" moon clips.

[Snooper]

I think a 32ACP version of the Black Widow or Earl or Sheriff is a great idea. The semi-rim should work fine in the NAA cylinders. 32ACP is a lower pressure round than the 22LR and 22WRM. I don't think they are going to stop making 32ACP anytime soon. Just eye-balling, It looks like you could get 4 32ACP rounds into a cylinder just slightly bigger than the current Black Widow cylinder. I'd buy one today

[Anvil]

Very interesting conversations my friends!
No matter what or if NAA comes up with another caliber or a new handgun design the main thing is we all know it will be of highest standards, top quality and machining perfection, not to mention vest pocket access!
I stumbled across this one not long ago and thought, Hey! NAA could make something like this.
It's a 32 S&W caliber made by Peter Merz.

[heyjoe]

We all love NAA or we wouldn't be here. The top quality craftsmanship of their mini arms really makes a difference to us enthusiasts. However it might be time for an upgrade to keep the beloved company progressing and prospering.  I suggest moving up on calibers from the famed mini revolvers. A 25 ACP or even the 32 has much more impact than the venerable 22 mag. It might require a frame update or an overall design change but it might be worth it in the long run. I personally could handle a little more bulk on my belt to saunter about with a little more power. My Iraq veteran son-in-law once asked me if 5 shots from a 22 was more effective than 2 shots from a 32. I did not know
the answer but agreed two shots were better than 5!
So my question would be can a 2 shot 32 cal. NAA hand gun be better than a 5 shot 22 mag revolver? 

No

[Anvil]

We all love NAA or we wouldn't be here. The top quality craftsmanship of their mini arms really makes a difference to us enthusiasts. However it might be time for an upgrade to keep the beloved company progressing and prospering.  I suggest moving up on calibers from the famed mini revolvers. A 25 ACP or even the 32 has much more impact than the venerable 22 mag. It might require a frame update or an overall design change but it might be worth it in the long run. I personally could handle a little more bulk on my belt to saunter about with a little more power. My Iraq veteran son-in-law once asked me if 5 shots from a 22 was more effective than 2 shots from a 32. I did not know
the answer but agreed two shots were better than 5!
So my question would be can a 2 shot 32 cal. NAA hand gun be better than a 5 shot 22 mag revolver? 

No

You are probably right heyjoe! This may not be rightfully comparable but I remember my dad, a Marine Vet from WWII telling me 3 or 4 rounds from his 30 cal. carbine didn't match one shot from a M1 Garand. 

[Canoeal]

Yawn, here we go again...We have had this discussion before. If you use self defense rounds (Hollow points) in a .25 acp or a.32 acp you get no penetration; a ball round make a nice little round hole. A .22 Mag gives you more penetration with hollowpoints that expand to larger than a .32 ball. Mouse guns are not the choice for gun fights, but work ok as "Get off me" guns.

[Canoeal]

If you want real comparison tests, try here:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/?fbclid=IwAR1_z_cEvnVykdpz-B7vR_mE_uwb_xHPREYuTwh2eegxwDyBRmuNQ-dnWqs#22Mag

[bill_deshivs]

If you carry a Beretta 950 or mod. 20, you get 9 rounds of .25 acp as fast as you can pull the trigger.
If you carry a Keltec P32, you get 8 rounds of .32 acp as fast as you can pull the trigger.
Both are pretty easy to shoot well.
Neither are much bigger or heavier than a magnum mini revolver that gives you 5 shots of .22 WMR, single action. It's difficult to shoot well.
I would love a .32 acp mini. I wouldn't carry it-but that's a moot point, because NAA isn't going to make one.

[antares_b]

If NAA made a 9mm Black Widow, it would look a lot nicer than this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQW41-bBkOY

[bearcatter]

You guys that are after a .32 ACP, just buy a Guardian! 15 ounces loaded, 7 rounds ready to go....

[PaducahMichael]

Bearcatter,

I have a Ruger Vaquero revolver in .45ACP. It's model number is 5152. No moon clips are needed. How do they make that work?

[bearcatter]

That's a new one on me. Do they eject like usual? I don't see how, there's no rim to hook. Must be some unusual mechanism?

I also don't see a real need? There are several varieties of .45 revolver ammo, and .44.

[Snooper]

No need for a rim to hook on when your ejecting one at a time with an ejector rod. I think cylinders are cut so that cartridges headspace on the mouth of the case, like it does in a semi-auto.

[Anvil]

You guys that are after a .32 ACP, just buy a Guardian! 15 ounces loaded, 7 rounds ready to go....

I don't trust semi-autos. A long time ago I bought my first pocket gun, a new Colt Mustang .380 and it jammed first shot, and third shot.
It caught the extractions in the slide. I probably shouldn't have let it deter me that much but ever since I'm strictly a revolver guy.
It might have been the ammo or a bad spring or something else but I never shot it again and soon traded it for a New SS Bearcat. Love that gun! 

[bearcatter]

No need for a rim to hook on when your ejecting one at a time with an ejector rod. I think cylinders are cut so that cartridges headspace on the mouth of the case, like it does in a semi-auto.

Oops....I looked right past "Vaquero" and was thinking DA revolver.....

[Anvil]

Maybe the 25NAA or the 32NAA made this time for the BW or a two shot derringer instead of the guardian?
The ballistics were promising 22years ago, It could work if somehow the ammo could become available and affordable.
Make the gun and the demand will promote the need of ammo?
Sorry, I know the answer. I'm just a vest pocket guy looking for something new. 

[grayelky]

The 32 ACP mini pops up every couple of years (or seems to). On more than one occasion, Sandy has said no, for a variety of reasons. With a new person in operational control, I suppose the chances of a ?maybe? exist, but I would not hope for it. Yes, I?d like to have one, but, as has been pointed out, the KelTec 32 ACP is reliable, reasonably accurate and relatively light. Light enough it takes a little practice to learn to control the recoil.

Part of the problem with 32ACP is in our Country bigger is always better. The .380 is bigger, therefore it must be better. Except it isn?t when it comes to stopping people. Due, in part to its more manageable recoil, the 32 is easier to shoot than the 380. In police investigated shootings the 32 ACP is almost as effective as the 380. Close enough so as to measuring the difference is negligible. I have read in Europe the 380 is more difficult to sell, as the 32 is so much more popular.

For my $.02 worth, if I have to go to a belt carry, such as the Guardian, I prefer to move on up to a 9mm, as they have gotten very small (compared to years gone by) and are easy to carry. To me, the easiest to carry is the now discontinued Kimber Solo. I have 2, and am giving serious consideration to going back to them and not carrying my Sig P365, which has become my EDC, in addition to my Wasp.

My latest idea I have been kicking around a little, in my head, is having a KelTec .380 converted to 32 NAA. I?m pretty sure all that would be needed is a KelTec 32 ACP barrel and a chamber reamer. I suspect the biggest problem will be learning to deal with the recoil in such a light, small pistol. There is just something intriguing about a 60 grain, 32 caliber bullet moving at 1200 FPS from a 2? barrel. bill deshivs, if you read this, I?d like to hear your thoughts on this idea. Anyone else who has thoughts on this, I?d listen to you, as well. Yes, I do have a Guardian in 32 NAA, but, it is too heavy (for me) to pocket carry.

[Uncle_Lee]

The only problem with any handgun using 25 NAA and 32 NAA is that that caliber ammo is not made any more.

[bearcatter]

Come to think of it, we haven't heard any recent news on Rick's NAA reloading adventure........

[bill_deshivs]

The P32 barrel is smaller dimensionally than the P3AT. Won't work. The whole gun is slightly bigger.

[bearcatter]

Just when I think someone is about to praise the .32 Guardian, the Kel-Tec pops up. Guardian's fifteen ounces loaded is "Too heavy".

Sorry folks, I wouldn't give ten bucks for a Kel-Tec. It's half plastic, it rusts, some parts that really should be metal aren't. A piece of spring steel and a sheet metal screw for an extractor. Wow. JMHO.

[Snooper]

Just when I think someone is about to praise the .32 Guardian, the Kel-Tec pops up. Guardian's fifteen ounces loaded is "Too heavy".

Sorry folks, I wouldn't give ten bucks for a Kel-Tec. It's half plastic, it rusts, some parts that really should be metal aren't. A piece of spring steel and a sheet metal screw for an extractor. Wow. JMHO.

I didn?t bring up the Kel-Tec P32, but I will defend her. I bought my Gen 1 P32 over 20 years ago. I was looking for a BUG that was light, very concealable and reliable. I shot a friend?s Seecamp and it was a jammomatic, even after going back to the maker for repairs and using Winchester Silvertips (the only ammo recommended by the maker). I shot a Beretta Tomcat. It shot well, and I liked the tip-up barrel, but it seemed heavy and thick and I didn?t want a manual safety. IIRC, it also had a reputation for cracking slides. I shot a friend?s P32 and loved it. It was so light (less than 7 oz.), but didn?t seem to recoil as much as the heavier 32s (not that any of them were handbreakers, but the P32 was more comfortable to shoot). It had a decent trigger and it didn?t jam. It ran every brand of 60 gr hp and 71/73 gr fmj ammo we had without a hitch and was easy to hit with. What more could you ask for.

I bought one and have had no trouble with it. I put a belt clip on it and wore it on a chain around my neck for years (not everyday, but fairly often). After I retired several years ago, I started carrying it in a sticky holster in my pants pocket almost everywhere I go. I put a crimson trace laser on it a couple of years ago. The laser works fine, although I?m not sure it adds much to the guns effectiveness. I don?t have an exact round count, but its somewhere around 2000. Several years ago, I ran across another NIB Gen 1 P32. I bought it, ran around 150 trouble-free rounds through it, cleaned it and put it away in case my original ever broke (although they, like NAA guns, have a lifetime guarantee). I have yet to need it.

As far as your complaints about the P32: 1) It?s half plastic ? Lots of good guns are. 2) It rusts ? I guess it could. I had mine over 20 years, carried it in my pocket and against my body for long periods of time and it hasn?t. I do wipe it down occasionally with some oil and I think my slide is parkerized, if that helps. 3) Non-metal parts should be metal ? Maybe, but they seem to be holding up pretty well. I do know a guy that had something break inside the frame. He sent the gun to KT, they fixed it and sent it back. 4) Spring steel extractor with screw ? I think those are on Gen 2 P32s. I like the looks of the ones on the Gen 1s better, but I haven?t heard that they are a problem.

I am not saying the P32 is THE gun for everybody, but it has worked very well for me and several others that I know. You may not think she is the prettiest girl at the ball, but I know she can dance. And your girl is still way too fat.

[Uncle_Lee]

My two penny's worth.
On the 32 Guardian, pinch and cut points of the trigger.
When I start to squeeze the trigger, some of my fat finger goes under it gets one heck of a pinch between the trigger and the trigger guard.
When I let the trigger go back forward, part of my finger goes over the top of the trigger and finds that there is a very sharp pinch point that don't just pinch, It cuts like a shear.
I took it out one day and brought it back with a pinched and cut finger. Didn't even shoot it.
If you look at the top of the trigger you will see what I mean about the shear. That is a very sharp little "cut your finger" point.

[bearcatter]

Snooper and Uncle Lee -  I think we've all given fair assessments. I guess my Guardian will remain in the minority. It's just contradictory that the biggest complaint is the weight, yet there are lots of people who have no problem carrying a 3 pound (loaded) 1911. I don't understand that. A loaded P-32 is 9 ounces, but my Guardian's 15 are worth the pluses to me. A .380 Guardian is 21 loaded, that's getting heavy.

My Zastavas are 26 ounces loaded, size of a PPK, and I would find both a bit much for concealed. It's fine OWB.

[OV-1D]

  I wish NAA would come up with a adjustable shoulder arm harness to attach to any mini to make it a mini rifle .Would look great on a Hogleg Earl for instance .  Just go ahead and send me mine in the mail for the suggestion, Jessica , Ha ,Ha . REALLY !!!