Special Situation

[wheelz]

Hello I am in my late 20's and have a disability that confines me to a wheelchair. I also have extremely limited muscle strength. To give you an idea of my lifting strength I can lift my camera which ways almost 8oz, but I will be very shaky. I am looking for something to use just for fun at the range and possible personal protection as I am moving into my own apartment. The NAA mini revolvers seem to be the best choices as far guns go. I know very little about guns, but friends have made suggestions. One is that I should use .22 Short at the range because of the low recoil and .22 Magnum for protection.

Does this make sense?
Which revolver do you all recommend?
How much recoil do these have?
Which can I put a laser on to improve my accuracy?
How hard is it to pull the hammer back?
How hard is it to pull the trigger?

On another note the only other gun I considered is the Kel-Tec P32 as it is the lightest pistol I found, but friends have said the slide might be to difficult and the recoil might also be two much. Is NAA the better choice?

[glenn]

Wish I could answer those questions for ya wheelz ... but I can't .. & I don't think that anyone else could answer them either.  I think you'll hafta find the answer by trying each gun that you think you may be able to handle.   I would be very glad to let you try mine, if you were close enough.
Maybe let us know where you live & someone here could offer you a "Test Drive".  I'm sure that many would be willing to help ya out.

[heyjoe]

the minis are very small and not that easy to operate for a number of reasons. it is not that easy to cock the hammer or to pull the trigger. you could put a large grip on them so recoil on a 22 short or long rifle probably wouldnt be a problem.
the easiest gun i can think of to operate would be a beretta 950 950bs 25acp. the 25 acp is mild, the beretta barrel tips up so you dont have to rack the slide. once you cock the hammer, the trigger pull is very light, it is single action after the first pull. you could also get a slip on sleeve to put over the grip to aid in gripping.

below is a beretta 950BS and an example of the type of slip on sleeve im talking about

[agrizzlyman]

Welcome Wheelz,
I don't know what your financial situation is but, if you can afford it, I would suggest contacting several firearms instructors in your area and explain your situation. You will easily find someone who is understanding of your situation and will meet you at a local range and show you a number of guns that might suit your needs. He will explain the positive and negatives of each gun and types of ammo and let you try them out. In my area (Southern Oregon) it would cost you about $40-45 and be well worth it.  Once you choose you firearm, one more session with the instructor will teach you the basics and give you confidence. Good luck!

[glenn]

Good point Joe .... or the Bobcat (.22 or .25)   or Tomcat (.32).   Any of these Tip-Ups may be his best option.   Racking the slide on any other auto will be his biggest foe.
I think you meant to say the Beretta would be "double action" = (just pull the trigger) after the first pull.  I'm not sure about the 950 you mention ... but the 21A Bobcat & the 3032 Tomcat are both "Double Action" all the time.  (just squeeze the trigger)

[louiethelump]

21A and 3032 ARE NOT DA only.  They are DA for the first trigger pull, and UNLIKE THE TAURUS, remain cocked after the first shot and are single action thereafter.

The 950 is a SA ONLY gun, and you have have to cock the hammer manually before the first shot and has no DA function at all.  It is also smaller than the 21A and is available in 22 short or 25 acp only.  NO 22lr.

Please don't get into a debate with me over this and just look it up for yourself.

[keith44]

Louie is correct...
Agrizzlyman has a great idea, look for firearms instructors in your area, and meet with them and talk with them, try out different guns that friends and instructors have and will let you shoot.

IMO you are going to have issues with all handguns.  DA trigger pulls are running as high as 9 pounds so even those without disabilities have a hard time with these (staying on target).  Cocking a single action, at least with small light weight handguns, requires a certain level of dexterity.

Recoil with the mini is not enough to hurt anyone, but you must be able to hold on to the gun, they jump more than anything.  You tube has several videos of people shooting these and you can see the recoil for yourself.

Good Luck with this one, I hope you are able to find something that will work for you.

[glenn]

Good grief Louie ... I wouldn't want you to debate something.  I'll just bow out & say "Yup ..Louie is right & I'm wrong.   Hope that perks ya up a little.

Also ... sorry for correcting you Joe.   I guess my brain wasn't fully engaged  ... was thinking that "Single Action" required "cocking" every time  ... not stopping to think that the slide did the cocking .. but it was still done.  The trigger only doing a "single action" > releasing the hammer.
I'll try to do better.

[zippovarga]

I'm going to go in a different direction and ask if wearing a front mount sling would help you keep the firearm in your possession. Secondly, a gun smith can lighten any trigger pull to suit your needs. Lastly, going WAY out on a limb here....I suggest a modified Ruger Charger pistol. Out of the box it comes with a bi-pod, it has a stable grip where your hand can't slip off the bottom and, with a tray mounted to your wheel chair, you would not have to lift any weight, as the pistol would be resting on the bi-pod. You can use a standard 10 round rotary clip or upgrade to a Ruger BX25 magazine which holds 25 rounds of ammunition. There are a couple of good magazine loaders out there that would greatly assist you in loading the magazines as well as literally hundreds of options for modifying your Ruger Charger (pistol version of the Ruger 10-22 rifle.) For example.....over sized charging handles would ease the bolt release, extended magazine release for ease of replacing the magazines, a trigger pull that can be as little as half a pound (hair trigger of sorts) and little to no recoil. The sling would just keep you from dropping the pistol and the adjustable bi-pod means you could set the height at the most comfortable point for you to shoot the pistol and maintain control. Lastly, the optics I would suggest would either be an open reticle holographic sight for fast target acquisition. This type of sighting system doesn't require you to be perfectly lined up with the scope and cross hairs on the target. You simply place the dot on the target and regardless of your positioning, if the dot is on the target, you'll hit the target.

This is the best advice I can give you and although it's not a North American Arms, it is a firearm that is tried and true with literally over 7 million of them being sold and also in my opinion, the most customizable format in known existence. Another option is a folding stock Ruger 10-22 which gives you both the ability to use as a "pistol" of sorts, or flip around the stock for more stability against your shoulder. Also.....Where the NAA can't, the Ruger Charger can acquire and eliminate a target exceeding 100 yards. Effectively keeping would be assailants at more than an arms length with a high degree of accuracy even for the beginner shooter.

I hope this helps you out in some way Wheelz

[grayelky]

First, WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

I, too, will go in a slightly different direction.

Zippo's suggestion would be very nice for range use, but the weight would very likely be too much for self defense.

Which revolver do you all recommend?
One of the lightest double action revolvers on the market is the Ruger LCR. It weighs less loaded than the S&W 642/442 does empty. It also has one of the best factory trigger pulls I have ever encountered. Recoil in the .38 special may be too much for you. The good news is, it is also made in .22 LR, which with 8 rounds, can be formidable. Not necessarily my first choice for self defense, BUT, I would not feel I was at a huge disadvantage if armed with the .22 LR. Ruger says it will not harm their guns to dry fire them. Once you explain your situation to your local gun shop owner, he should let you dry fire an LCR. If not, go elsewhere.

S&W makes a very nice, very light .22 mag revolver, in 2 versions. Both are slightly lighter than the Ruger LCR. Being chambered in .22 mag is a plus. One has a hammer, model 351PD at 11 oz. with an MSRP of $759.00, the other is hammerless (actually, an internal hammer), the model 351C at 10.4 oz. with an MSRP of $689.00. Either one may require the trigger pull be lightened by a gunsmith for you to use. I personally would like to have the 351C. Given your situation, the .22 mag may be your best choice.

There are other revolvers on the market that have interchangeable LR/mag cylinders, but from what you have described, I do not feel they would serve you well, due to their weight and trigger pull.

Does this make sense?
How hard is it to pull the hammer back?
How hard is it to pull the trigger?
Since you are confined to a wheel chair, my NAA suggestion would be a Mini Master (4" barrel) or Black Widow (2" barrel). They can be had with a LR cylinder for practice, and yes, you can use .22 short in the LR cylinder. If recoil is a problem for you, and I suspect it may be, the short will be the way to go for practice. The BW weighs about the same as your camera. While at your friendly local gun shop, have him remove the cylinder from an NAA revolver, then it will be okay to cock and dry fire the mini revolver (per NAA). This will let you know without buying if it is feasible for you.

Which can I put a laser on to improve my accuracy?
There is a new Laser on the market made just for the NAA Black Widow (and mini master) called the Venom http://northamericanarms.com/naa-venom-laser.html. This is the best option if you choose the BW or Mini master. Any of the Minis can be fitted with a Laser made just for them. It is mounted on the top of the frame, and has gotten mixed reviews here on the forum.

How much recoil do these have?
Remember your high school physics? The rules apply to firearms as well. A lot of power = a lot of recoil. Little power = little recoil (Equal and opposite reaction). Heavier objects require more energy to move than lighter objects. (Object at rest stays at rest...) While the .22 mag is not a "powerful" cartridge, we are discussing a very light revolver. It will absorb less of the recoil energy than a heavy gun will, thus passing more of it on to the user. The third factor is ergonomics. A LR mini is more difficult to control than a magnum, due to the magnums larger grip. It is easier to "hold on to" than the LR, thus it has more "recoil". Technically, the LR does have less recoil, but, due to the light weight and poor ergonomics, it has much more felt recoil.

On another note the only other gun I considered is the Kel-Tec P32 as it is the lightest pistol I found, but friends have said the slide might be to difficult and the recoil might also be two much.
As to the KelTec .32 or P3AT, I would strongly recommend you not get one. The slide will likely be too hard for you to retract and load the pistol. You could have a friend load it for you, and by pass that step. If it were to jam, you would have a paper weight if you cannot clear the jam, which will involve retracting the slide. The felt recoil is VERY noticeable. You would very likely not be able to shoot it twice, and if you were to be able to, unless you maintain a stiff wrist, it will jam. I could be wrong. The same applies to all of the light, "plastic" small pocket pistols.

Let us know what you decide.

If you happen to be in the metro Atlanta area, send me an email. I may be able to help.

[jjccamis]

My compliments to all who have offered up genuinely useful information to this gentleman.  I am impressed and proud of you all.
JJC

[wheelz]

zippovarga I have a few questions if you do not mind. I know very little about guns and your idea is very inventive.

What is a rotary clip?
What is a magazine loader?
What is a front mount sling?
What is a folding stock?
What are over sized charging handles?
What is a extended magazine release?
What is the difference between the two model of the charger?
Can you explain how to use the charger from start to finish?

[zippovarga]

Wheelz,

     The long and short of the answers to your questions are best answered hands on. How to do this? YouTube!! It's an excellent research tool for all things your mind can conjure up. A front mount sling would keep the firearm in front of you, you wear the sling as a sort of necklace for lack of a better way to describe it. Charging handle, what must be pulled back and released to place a bullet in the chamber for firing. The "two different Charger Models" was a bit deceptive on my part and for that I apologize. I was referring to the Ruger 10-22 Rifle and the 10-22 Charger Pistol. Gray brought up a good point which I attempted to compensate for with the front mounted sling. Thus, keeping the firearm suspended primarily from your body, lessening the strength you would need to manipulate the full weight of the pistol/rifle. Extended magazine release gives you more leverage to disengage the magazine from the pistol with less effort/strength. As is also true with the extended charging handle. Rotary magazine simply means the bullets load into the magazine and roll around into a circle when all 10 rounds are loaded. A magazine loader eliminates the hand loading of your magazines, less strength is required to load a magazine with a loader that does the work for you while you turn a knob. Again, most of these suggestions can be found on youtube. Just search for Ruger 1022 videos in the subject line and you will be inundated with literally hundreds of videos on how to modify these firearms to best suit you. Don't discount Grays suggestions as they are all excellent alternatives to my suggestion.

As a step by step description of the function of the Ruger 10-22, again, I highly recommend checking out all the videos on youtube. I could make you a video showing modifications that would help you, but it would be redundant due to the vast wealth of information already available to you through watching the videos. There are also lighter weight aftermarket stocks available for the Charger pistol to further decrease the static weight of the firearm. As for the folding stock, a number of aftermarket companies make components for the Ruger 10-22 like a folding stock, which can take on many configurations or a collapsible stock that you can adjust the length of pull with. Length of pull is the distance from your shoulder to the trigger. Some stocks that collapse have numerous stop positions to accommodate most any user.

I hope this information is helpful along with what everyone else has offered up for you. I agree strongly that you should seek out a firearms instructor and a reputable gun smith to custom tailor a firearm to your needs. Some descriptions can be lost in the translations, so again, please do spend some time watching youtube videos on all of the suggestions everyone has offered. We are obviously happy to help, but ultimately, it's your body that must be accommodated and we're not standing beside you to better determine your needs. By watching the videos you can make notes and mutter to your self......I can't do that!!! Hey....Look!!!! I CAN DO THAT!!! Then, take your findings to the instructor and reputable gun smith and before you know it, you'll be able to defend your self as efficiently and comfortably as is humanly possible.

Best of wishes in your hunt for the perfect firearm for your self defense needs!!

Zip

[wheelz]

Zip,

When I said two models on the Ruger website I saw they make a CHR22-FC and a CHR22-10. Do you what the difference is?

-Wheelz

[wheelz]

Grayelky,

The revolvers you mentioned are a little heavy given my muscle strength. What do you think of something in between like the Pug or Sidewinder? How do these compare to the others you mentioned? How much strength do you need for the hammer and trigger?

-Wheelz

[bleak_window]

I think it would be most helpful for Wheelz to do some hands-on testing of some of these suggestions.  The hammer and trigger on the minis do take a decent amount of pressure to operate.  That would be true for almost any rimfire (.22) revolver trigger, as they require a harder hammer strike to ensure reliable ignition. 

Maybe if Wheelz tells us what city he's in, we can either suggest a good gun shop, or perhaps one of us can arrange to meet Wheels and let him handle and dry-fire some of our minis or other .22 handguns.

[wheelz]

I live in South Florida.

-Wheelz

[Moderndayedison]

I know that I have been very pleased with my Black Widow purchase.
It is a BW Conversion that allows one to shoot Shorts, LR, or Magnum.

I use mine to fend off stray dogs, snakes, and other natural threats but
in my experience the gun is allot like a camera in that it is point and shoot.
Some types of .22 ammo are more accurate than others through these pistols.
I have found the Remington High Velocity Viper rounds to be the most accurate.
(In my own personal experience.)

If you are concerned about muggers...   I suggest the LR #12 steel bird shot loads.
Or...   a less evasive strategy would be to carry 5 cans of mace, a big can of hairspray
and a good butane lighter...   spray them with mace...   if that don't work spray them
with hairspray and light their *ss on fire.  I'm just saying...   it's a suggestion.
And that way your shaky hands won't be an issue.

In all honesty...   using a gun for self protection isn't wise, too much red tape
and you are liable to get your gun taken away even if you use it in self-defense.
Use one of those collapsable battons...   less red tape. All you have to do is put
a magnet on the end of your collapsable batton and say you use it for retrieving
items from the floor or ground being confined to a wheelchair.

You can go with a gun if you want, but I feel there are better options for
a person in your unique situation.  With that said a .22LR or Magnum would
probably be the best caliber for you to use.

I know that I have been satisfied with my Black Widow Conversion
as a metal detecting, dowsing, and treasure hunting enthusiast.


-MDE


.

[grayelky]

Wheelz wrote:
The revolvers you mentioned are a little heavy given my muscle strength.
I was concerned they would be, but, they are the lightest on the market (to my knowledge), except of course for the Minis.

What do you think of something in between like the Pug or Sidewinder?
Of the NAAs, I feel the Black Widow will be the better for you. It has a larger grip, and should be a little easier for you to control. Of course, you can put the BW grip on any of the magnum framed guns. I suspect ultra concealment is not a high priority for you. Go with the biggest firearm you can, with the longest barrel you can, and still conceal to the degree you need to. If you can not handle the extra size and weight of the BW, go to a smaller Mini. The lightest of the Magnums will be the 1 1/8 barrel standard. You may need to change the grips. In addition to the variety NAA offers, there are several after market grip makers available. A couple them are on this forum.

How do these compare to the others you mentioned?
It is sorta like comparing a Mini Cooper to a Toyota Camry. If the Camry is too big for your needs, the Mini Cooper is a better idea. The NAAs are much smaller. I only mentioned the others as a possible alternative. (Back to that "Go with the biggest firearm you can" thought.)

How much strength do you need for the hammer and trigger?
It is very difficult for me to try and answer that question. I have been shooting minis since 1977, and handguns since 1970. I started with a single action revolver (the same style as the Minis), and it is second nature for me to cock a single action without giving it a thought. I have had "normal", healthy looking females who have had some trouble cocking the minis. The only way to answer your question is for you to visit a gun shop and try. The internet is a great research tool, but research just goes so far. There are some things that have to be hands on. This is one of them.

I was unaware of the light weight stocks offered for the Ruger Charger. That may be worth exploring. I still suspect it will be too heavy for you for self defense.

[Theholybull]

The strength required to cock the hammer is minimal, my 7 year old son does it with no problem. I suspect you could do It as well. He's not strong by any means and he shoots it like an old west gun slinger.  I might also suggest the sidewinder as it may make loading and unloading much easier and faster.

[bleak_window]

The suggestion of a Black Widow is a good one, I think.  The larger grip and 2" barrel give it a different feel and balance than the shorter minis, and I believe those attributes make it a bit easier to cock the hammer due to the greater leverage provided.  Something like the Sheriff with 2.5" barrel might be good, too.  If this is for wheelchair use, it would probably be stuffed in a pouch or behind a cushion within easy reach.

Unfortunately, I'm in north Florida and can't get away any time soon.  But any large gun shop in south FL should have an assortment of minis to try.  Ask for the cylinder to be removed so you can test the hammer and trigger in complete safety. 

[wheelz]

Here is a quick update on my research.

Someone I know has a Ruger LCP with a built in laser. I recently held it with an empty magazine. I was barely able to hold it and would of never been able to steadily aim anything close to weighing that. I checked and it is about 10 ounces. Can someone tell me what 5 rounds of 22 short, 22 LR, and 22 magnum weigh so I know what a NAA loaded weighs?

On another note another friend of mine who knows about guns said the best round for me could be a 5.7 x 28 because he said the recoil is low like a 22 LR, but strong enough for self defense. I looked it up, but couldn't find any lightweight guns. Any ideas?

[agrizzlyman]

My Black Widow w/Vang Grips, loaded with 5 rounds of 22mag. weighs exactly 9oz.

[OV-1D]

I don't own any but aren't the NAA autos lighter that any black steel models out there . Wheelz my friend your in a pickle I'm figuring , not much of anything is going to work for ya sounds like . Some type of .25 is really your only choice . Have a composite made , check into it , won't be too cheap but then again what price can you put on safty and peace of mind ..  I'd bet though stainless is lighter than cold steel .

[bill_deshivs]

Stainless is not noticeably lighter than carbon steel.
The suggestion of the Beretta .25 is probably the best one.
The little NAA revolvers are not easy to shoot and require lots of practice.
Your case is probably the first I have come across that I would recommend a laser sight for. You could rest the gun on your lap or leg, put the dot on target and pull the trigger. Sounds like you need a single-action trigger, too.
It's very possible you may have to go with an automatic pistol, and have someone load it for you. There is not a laser sight to my knowledge that will work on the little Beretta.
Hope this helps.

[tocsn40]

From what I have seen of your posts I am not sure a gun would be somthing I would encorage you to use for self defense. With the little bit of strength you have told us you have I BELIVE THAT A GUN WOULD NOT BE A SAFE THING FOR YOU. sorry for saying it like I belive but I would fell real bad if you was to get hurt trying to use a gun   this is just my thoughts and I hope you take it for what it is.

[boone123]

WHEELZ --- I don't know if its been mentioned yet but NAA makes a holster grip that might work for you. Also, as weak as you are you might have to go with a 22 LR with a larger grip because of recoil.
I have been about where your at once for a couple of years. Was an autoimmune thing. As I got weaker I had to keep coming up with a new plan to shoot. I had a NAA 22 LR but couldn't hang on to it when it went off.  Could still hold onto a Colt Woodsman for a while, on a rest, but couldn"t load the clip. To run the slide on the Colt, I hooked the back sight on something and pushed the gun ahead. Couldn"t release the cylinder on a older 63 s&w 22. Even if I could still sort of shoot it off a rest for a while.  I had carried a mini NAA for years. Had to give that up.Was very hard to know, weak as I was I couldn't protect myself. When I kept crashing to the floor and had to crawl on my hands and knees, it was over. Reached the point where I couldnt get tooth paste out of a new tube. OK, I beat it, and I gained some something from it.  When I see someone thats handi capped, I know what their going through, and I just want to help them. I wish you just lived close to me. I would make your world bigger. I have had some pratice.
I did overcome mine, and you would never know I have been there, and I now shoot thousands of shells a year. But I will never forget...

Did I mention, I still hate round slippery door knobs in mens rest rooms.
And steps with no railing.
And doors with strong closers.

Wheelz----Grab as much life as you can!
Keep ue posted, we care...

[wheelz]

Thank you for all your support. I think maybe I need to reevaluate things just a little bit. The idea of the Ruger Charger is starting to look better and the idea of designing something to fit my needs. A friend of mine had recommended this as well. Does anyone know where I can research having something designed to fit my specific needs?

[boone123]

Weelz.....Maybe  a bipod made to fit on a smaller gun?

[grayelky]

boone123-
Congrats on your recovery!

wheelz-
If the LCP is too heavy for you, DO NOT TRY TO SHOOT IT!! The recoil is very stout, and it will likely jump from your hand. I have shot a 5.7 X 28, and the recoil is mild. The weight of the gun will likely be too much for you, as it is a fair bit heavier than the LCP. When I mentioned the recoil being mild, I was referring to normal, healthy people. For some one with the strength you have illustrated, even the FN 5-7 will be too heavy, and I strongly suspect, the recoil will be too much for you. I still feel the best bet for you will be the Black widow, or maybe a 1 1/8" barrel Mini combo with a grip larger than the standard one. Possibly the BW grip. I have not shot a gun with Cvang grips, but I have had a chance to handle one. Of the ones mentioned in this thread, they may very well be the best option for you.

[wheelz]

grayelky-

I was never considering attempting to fire the LCP. I simply held to see how much weight I could possibly hold. One recommendation on here was a tip-up barrel which I was researching. It is a .22, but similar in size and weight to the LCP. If I cannot hold the LCP I do not think I can hold the tip-up barrel even if I could handle the recoil. When you say the mini combo which are you referring to?

[OV-1D]

Hate to be the one to say it but it has to be said , gun control is and being able to use two hands (well) . Got to be realistic or someones going to be hurt , possibly . Just wait till you get alot stronger it would be wisest . Great luck with your recoverery and therapy . Boone sounds like a good example to talk to for he has had simular situations . Merry Christmas and Happy New Year may it bring forth new abilities . Nothing wrong with talking about these things .

[bleak_window]

Doesn't Taurus make a polymer .22 auto with a tip-up barrel?  That might be worth a look. 

[wheelz]

I just took a look at the Taurus polymer .22 with tip-up barrel. I really like it, but it is still a little heavy at 10.8 ounces. I was looking at other forum on this site and someone mentioned a .22 TCM. Can someone tell me what that is?

[agrizzlyman]

Light recoil (comparatively) but a very heavy gun.
http://www.gunblast.com/RockIsland-22TCM.htm