Gut shot?

[tinhorn]

I have 12 little 25s.

Ok, now I understand.

[Uncle_Lee]

I have 12 little 25s.

Ok, now I understand.

Sometimes, I just loose any ability to reject any thing small and cute.

[RogueTS1]

I thought the Mozambique (SP) drill was 2 center mass, 1 head.

Yes, two center mass and one to the head is referred to as "Mozambique" drill or "Failure Drill." "Zippering" or "Zipping" is a term used when the gun comes up from low ready and as soon as barrel has something to shoot on bad guy trigger goes to work and keeps working as gun comes to level at center mass or head.

[bill_deshivs]

Multiple accurate shots with a mini revolver are not likely to happen.

There are 3 types of "stops."
1. Psychological- "He has a gun. I'd better stop." "He just shot me! I don't want to get shot again."
2. Pain- see above, and add "***! That hurts!"
3. Physical- requires a central nervous system hit.

#1 & 2 often work. Since these are not rapid-fire weapons by any means, my suggestion is that if #1 doesn't work-you *** sure better go to #3. Thinking that you know how someone is going to react when shot with a tiny bullet is not very smart. If you cant hit a 3" circle with your tiny gun-quickly, you had best carry something bigger and faster.

[OV-1D]

  Just like those John Wick movies . 

Loveum, loveum, loveum !!!!!!!

   See the latest one Unc ?? Another great action flick .

[Uncle_Lee]

Wife cut me off after the second one. Got tired of seeing me setting there with 10 minis in my lap.

[OV-1D]

   WHATTTTT ? You gotta see them all Unc . Usually after the first of these ongoings flicks they start to get old but not John Wick movies sure its the same beat'em up shoot'em up stuff but he does it so well . I don't think there will be another he kinda settles the score with everyone thats against him . knowing hollywood though they might pull another out of the hat . You'd like this last one I know .

[Canoeal]

OK 'need" is a relative term...

[Uncle_Lee]

My age gets to the forefront of my thinking ever once in a while.
When I die, what is my wife going to do with all my little goodies?
I have talked to 3 dealers about selling them for her on consignment........Nope, won't touch them.
I have tried to sell them and that is a mess.

why wont they touch it?

Probably have drool all over them!

Enough drool to make the cylinder bind.

[ChanceMcCall]

Multiple accurate shots with a mini revolver are not likely to happen.

There are 3 types of "stops."
1. Psychological- "He has a gun. I'd better stop." "He just shot me! I don't want to get shot again."
2. Pain- see above, and add "dang! That hurts!"
3. Physical- requires a central nervous system hit.

#1 & 2 often work. Since these are not rapid-fire weapons by any means, my suggestion is that if #1 doesn't work-you dang sure better go to #3. Thinking that you know how someone is going to react when shot with a tiny bullet is not very smart. If you cant hit a 3" circle with your tiny gun-quickly, you had best carry something bigger and faster.

These guns are effective as contact or near contact weapons because of the caliber. 

Somehow I don't see one of these guns scaring some idiot that is looking to engage in a serious social situation unless there is moderating conversation. )"The bullets would bounce off of your thick head so I'm just going to take out your eyeball(s) - or - I'm just going to shoot your balls off because that will stop you.  That could work if there is time for it. 

Having been shot with a .22LR I can personally attest the pain isn't enough to stop a determined adversary. Getting the bullet out hurts a heck of a lot more than getting shot. 

Put the round where it will actually do some good. Behind the ear, in the eye aimed up, in the neck artery, in the throat pointed up, or even under the arm. 

[ApacheDan]

Thank you everybody for your insight.  I think I'm more ready for a bad confrontation.  Really, with adrenalin pumping, now I'm thinking that I might get a chance at one shot only.  I will train with my BW to hit center of mass when I practice at the range.  I carry Federal Punch in .22 Magnum.  From the reviews and tests I've seen in YouTube,  bullet tumbles and creates a big damage canal before stopping.  Yes, I also have 9mm's, etc, but it is the BW that I always carry with me.  The only bad situation in my life was my ex-wife shooting at me, aiming at my head with a .38 spl revolver.  It was about 8 feet distance and she still missed...otherwise I would not be typing.  So maybe headshot is not a good idea when adrenalin is rushing.  She didn't get a chance for a second shot, because I jumped at her and took the revolver from her hands.

[bill_deshivs]

I love the NAA guns. They are well made.

But- choosing one as a primary carry gun is not a good idea-unless that's all you can carry. I have used a NAA .22 short for just such a purpose.

When you get into the .22 magnum guns, you might as well buy a Keltec P32. There isn't much size/weight difference, and you have 8 double action shots of a bigger bullet. With the single action NAA you're not going to be doing double or triple taps.

[bluecow]

Center-mass shots are recommended.

One can not rely on pain to stop a determined, drugged, or crazy assailant. While it MAY stop them, it may not.

While I agree with Center-mass, 2-3 .22's I'm betting evens the odds a bit if things have to go to a more personal touch.

[bill_deshivs]

My point is, you more than likely won't GET 2-3 shots with a single action pistol.

[OV-1D]

  My thought on this Bill is if your able to get more shots in 2-3-4 your probably shooting at an unarmed person .

[bill_deshivs]

If you are only expecting to get one shot in, you'd better be able to hit an eyeball.

[dinooch]

I agree with the speed of follow up shots with a single action mini vs a semi auto or double action revolver 100% Of course nobody wants to ever have to get into that situation in the first place. I practice the same close quarter get off me drill and have been for years with various pocket guns and snub nosed revolvers. Draw gun from the pocket lock my elbow into my hip the gun forward of the hip but close to my body my left fist is on my right shoulder (arm covering heart) and rip away at a steel target on the action range. If you do it in practice you'll do it in the game.

[copfish]

We always taught shoot until they stop the action that started the incident. Now I carry a SIG 365XL or a S&W 340M&P,  the handguns are to fight my way to a long gun. My NAA used to ride in a pocket sewn in the back of my vest at the neck. Now it rides in the pocket of my shorts when I'm at home.  It allows me to get to a progressively bigger gun with more ammo capacity.  Do what you feel works for you, not what the internet says you should do.  Me, I'm most comfortable at home with my VangComp 870 (nothing says stop like a load of 000) stashed by my chair and on the road, an AR along with my handgun(s). 

[OV-1D]

  Nowadays it could prove fatal if you go to your door with a gun in hand .I know all the if ands or but but the quality of our very young law enforcement tend to shoot first and ask questions after your on a gurney . Being law enforcement is surely a job that takes more than good marksmanship it take split second thinking if shooting is the best alternative sorry to say . Too many innocents are becomes unknowing targets when confronting officers . Wrong addresses ,wrong locations ,wrong people are all too well a problem with our law enforcement methods . Heck read about the latest episodes in the news . This latest being a acorn bouncing off the roof of a patrol car being mistaken for shots fired and the officer filling his patrol car with lead , dang . This guys way to young for his job heck things like this start chain reactions all around .    

[LHB]

i read about the over reactions, and the wrong address cases, but there are sometimes reasons for these over action.
Last Tuesday night, in my small town of 6000, one of our local officers became involved in a fatal shooting.   
I have been told that he had retired from our county force, but started on our city force in January.   He spotted a car that matched the description of a car reported as having been stolen in another nearby city, and started a traffic stop.   The stopped driver came out shooting, had two shots off before the officer was completely out of the squad.   The officer took one in the chest (was wearing his vest) and one through the hand, and now recovering at home   The shooter was described as deceased at the site.   The driver had been booked into the Peoria County jail 32 times, all of them for auto theft or burglary.   Sheriff has been quoted as saying that at least they won't have to book him a 33rd time.
My daughter is a teacher at the local high school, and has the officer's son in one of her classes, and has talked to the son about the incident.

[RogueTS1]

the quality of our very young law enforcement tend to shoot first and ask questions after your on a gurney

We believe this has a lot to do with Officers being woman and others being girly boys. What we mean is women more often than not are going to be overcome by a male assailant and they know it and therefore far too often "are in fear for their lives or great bodily injury" and go to guns. The girly boys these days have never even been in a fist fight at school and so when an assailant get physical they very quickly become "in fear for their life or great bodily injury" and ................ go to guns.

Training teaches that if one is in fear for their lives or great bodily injury lethal force is indicated ............... problem is if you are a weakling with little to no combat experience it is very easy to reach the level of "fear for your life or great bodily injury" and start shooting everybody when more than likely all that a competently experienced strong man would require is a little arm bending to cuff and stuff a perp.

[Uncle_Lee]

Mention "Swatting".
Now that is sick.

[LHB]

I don't agree with Rogue's assessment completely.   I don't think that it is the duty of an officer to go hand to hand with a drunk or other violent person.   I know that every time I got in a fight, I always got hurt.
I few years ago the Peoria paper carried a story about the first Peoria female patrol officer's retirement.   In the article, she was asked how she had handled bar fights, and she replied that she had only ever been in one bar fight during her career.   In the first week that she was working solo after her training, she got called to a fight in the south end of Peoria.   Said she walked into the bar, and this big ape turned around and flattened her.   She said as she laid there on the floor, and watched him raise his foot to stomp her, she thought "no way" pulled her pistol and shot him.   From then on, when I go into a fight, I yell stop it, and the fight stops, because no  one wanted to get shot.
Somewhat similar occurrence, Jacksonville N.C. 1968, a Marine went AWOL from Force Recon training at Camp Lejune, went into a bar in J'ville, took out the bouncers, city police responded, got thrown out, so they called the MP's.   I was riding with the duty traffic investigator when we heard the radio call for the P's.   In a matter of minutes, the call came that everything was under control.
The MP I was riding with said I have to stop by the sub-station to find out how that little b******d handled that.
Response was that as soon as the AWOL saw their white hats, he broke a beer bottle, and dared them to try to take him.   The little guy said I just reached down, unsnapped the flap on my .45, and told him that I had just been back from Nam for about 72 hours, it's been about 96 hours since I killed somebody, so lay down and put your hands behind your neck, which he did.

[LHB]

I do agree with Rogue partly, maybe twenty years ago I was setting up a Hunter Education class, and taking to a Captain of the Illinois  Conservation Police.   We got to talking about wardens, and training, and he said that the department had become aware of the fact that since they had started requiring a college degree or prior law enforcement experience, the number of officers who were injured on duty had gone up, and finally they had realized that most of the college educated applicants had never been in a fist fight, or played football, so they had to totally revamp the hand to hand component of the academy.

[RogueTS1]

I don't agree with Rogue's assessment completely.   I don't think that it is the duty of an officer to go hand to hand with a drunk or other violent person.[/quot

No, LEO's should not have to go hand to hand with violent suspects .................... but that is the point we are trying to make. If one goes into Law Enforcement they should realize they are joining a profession/trade that requires one to be ready to rock and roll with Society's worst. If they are not prepared for this then they have no business partaking in this job. Kind of like a soldier complaining that he has to go to war. Now, that being said, LEO's should understand the Escalation of Force doctrine and how to properly use it. Those that have never been in a fist fight or played football or hockey etc. are far more likely to escalate the use of force to lethal because they cannot read very well the difference between somebody who is just being belligerent and somebody prepared to do one great bodily harm.

Somebody pulls a knife, a pipe, a broken bottle .............. they are threatening with lethal force and shooting them may just turn out to be the proper thing to do under the right circumstances. Are they threatening you with a chair from across the room? Probably not appropriate to shoot them just yet.

We are prepared to let LEO's use force, when and only when, they are experienced enough and honest enough to use it proportionally and appropriately. Doing otherwise results in what we see far too much of today. "My only goal is to go home at the end of my shift." "We are brothers and part of the Blue Line." "It is us vs everybody else." "Cops got to stick together." Unsuspecting person has a gun in their hand inside their own house. Officers see them throught a window, "Gun! Gun! Gun!" Empties magazine through shaded window. Acorn hits roof of car .................... "Shots fired! Shots fired!" Mag dumps multiple times his sidearm into his patrol car with cuffed suspect in back seat. Tough men with a reasonable head on their shoulders are those that should wear the badge. Not women or girley boys.

[heyjoe]

the quality of our very young law enforcement tend to shoot first and ask questions after your on a gurney

We believe this has a lot to do with Officers being woman and others being girly boys. What we mean is women more often than not are going to be overcome by a male assailant and they know it and therefore far too often "are in fear for their lives or great bodily injury" and go to guns. The girly boys these days have never even been in a fist fight at school and so when an assailant get physical they very quickly become "in fear for their life or great bodily injury" and ................ go to guns.

Training teaches that if one is in fear for their lives or great bodily injury lethal force is indicated ............... problem is if you are a weakling with little to no combat experience it is very easy to reach the level of "fear for your life or great bodily injury" and start shooting everybody when more than likely all that a competently experienced strong man would require is a little arm bending to cuff and stuff a perp.

very true. as early as the mid nineties i was talking to someone who was an insructor in the nypd academy who told me that when they were doing physical defense and tactics training, including a few rounds in a boxing ring, the majority of men 22 and up, had never been hit in the face before.

[Dinadan]

I do agree that in America today many, or most, young men have never been in a fight. And a big percentage of those who have, also have a criminal record which would keep them out of law enforcement. Like so many things where we try make life better, there is also a downside. Like the kids whose parents keep the environment so clean that the kids are allergic to regular stuff. It is a bit of a tricky issue. I do not want to see the young folks brawling, but they do need to understand how to handle it. In an ideal world, maybe everyone would take some martial arts or boxing classes just to know how it feels to get hit.

[RogueTS1]

the quality of our very young law enforcement tend to shoot first and ask questions after your on a gurney

We believe this has a lot to do with Officers being woman and others being girly boys. What we mean is women more often than not are going to be overcome by a male assailant and they know it and therefore far too often "are in fear for their lives or great bodily injury" and go to guns. The girly boys these days have never even been in a fist fight at school and so when an assailant get physical they very quickly become "in fear for their life or great bodily injury" and ................ go to guns.

Training teaches that if one is in fear for their lives or great bodily injury lethal force is indicated ............... problem is if you are a weakling with little to no combat experience it is very easy to reach the level of "fear for your life or great bodily injury" and start shooting everybody when more than likely all that a competently experienced strong man would require is a little arm bending to cuff and stuff a perp.

very true. as early as the mid nineties i was talking to someone who was an insructor in the nypd academy who told me that when they were doing physical defense and tactics training, including a few rounds in a boxing ring, the majority of men 22 and up, had never been hit in the face before.

We heard a statistic a few years back that in CA 96% of the recruits at the LE Academy had never touched a firearm before their Academy training. These are the "Professionals" we have out "Serving & Protecting" us? 

[OV-1D]

  Its very hard for law enforcement to CONTINUELY have to either expand dept personal because of increase in population or replacing retirement guys or just plain fellas that quit ,especially because of breaking the law protecting themselves outside of given laws which are a joke to begin with . As always the true criminal has these miserable laws on their sides to protect them from law enforcement . The justice system seldom takes into account sheriffs, police ,etc , that they are just plain human beings as themselves  . Between lawyers and liberals they have destroyed our legal system to a point it just doesn't work anymore and being in law enforcement is a crap shoot . Justice must be working somewhere someplace or we would be in a very bad total anarchy but the numbers show we are losing on the frontlines because of those two I mentioned above . Much higher pay for being in law enforcement is a must to get and keep people who can do the jobs they are required to do . To keep the peace the military will have to fill the holes in our civilized world if we don't keep our local and state police rolls increasing substantially to stay ahead of crime . Here down south we seem to be keeping , generally , ahead of the criminal mindset . The south feels like it has a different outlook of crime and uses it accordingly . Down here lawyers are generally ambulance chasers and funny we don't see liberals too much they tend to be discouraged and looked down on , fiercely .  I'll shut up for now  . Later guys .

[Uncle_Lee]

The government don't want the cops. They tend to interfere with crime. The more crime, the more the country is divided. Hence easier to control.