Sidewinder? Does anyone at NAA pay attention?

[firemedicntx]

I've owned and carried several NAA revolvers for over 20 years.  I just saw the sidewinder the otherday and thought is was a great idea, a long time coming, and it is butt ugly.  To each their own, but I'm wondering.  What the heck happened to the best thing to come outta NAA, the Ranger?  Hands down the best most aesthetically appealing little pistol ever made!  I read the bit here about production costs and I don't buy it.  Every Ranger sold second hand in the last year has sold for $2000.00 or more.  Are you guys at NAA saying that you can't make a profit at $1000 or even $2000 on a Ranger?  What is the deal with the Ranger?  Why not make another lot of the little break overs at a comfortable profitable price so that everyone who wants one can buy one without being gouged?  Most every person I've talked to at my shop and at shows who sees the Ranger say they would buy one.  It is very frustrating that it doesn't seem like anyone is paying attention for the demand of a product like the Ranger, and then something like the sidewinder comes out seemingly in it's place.  No comparison, both should be available!

[Wolfar]

Correct me if I am wrong and I am sure you will.....

Did not the bottom part of the frame not hold up to expectations? IE get cracked here and there?

[cedarview kid]

Welcome aboard!

I have 2 comments on this:

1. I actually like the looks of the Sidewinder much better than the Ranger. Just my opinion.

2. There is not a sustained market of the Ranger at $2000. If NAA made them to sell at that price, it wouldn't take long before everybody who would pay that much already had one. They were going for that much BECAUSE they were no longer available and people still wanted them. You make more and the price goes back down to where NAA can't make money on them again. Catch 22 problem, for sure.

Glad you have you here on the board, tho!

[gofishr]

Welcome aboard ......
Well for my opinion I have both the Ranger & Sidewinder and both are well made. Also waiting for the Sidewinder to be out in the market to buy another one...

[45flint]

I own both guns and I actually do like the Sidewinder a little better.  If looks like you have seen but have not held the Sidewinder.  You may want to look at it more closely when you can see it at your gun shop.  I thought as well it looked a little different but as a working peice I have justed bonded to it and like the swing out mechanics.  Of course the 22 cylinder is huge factor as well.  You need to experience the Sidewinder lockup, probably the best of any revolver I own, so solid and on this little thing.

[firemedicntx]

Thanks for the welcome, although that wasn't my first post.  I posted years ago when the message board first popped up, but it seems that login info is now gone.  Anyway, no I haven't actually held a sidewinder yet, but plan on it.  As with all things that go boom, I do like it, but think the ranger is a piece of art by comparison.  As far as price point and profit margin goes, yes I know there are a limited number of people who would pay $2k for a ranger.  Just as there are at the $1k price.  The point of my post was to see if anyone at NAA was aware of what people have been willing to pay for every ranger they have made so far.  It is by far more than they expected.  I thought profit margin was the problem at trying to make the ranger a production pistol.  If it was something else, someone in the know please tell me.  I read where they wanted it to be less than $400 but that didn't cover production costs.  What would be the price for them to make a profit then??  That is now the question because it has been proven we are crazy and will pay ridiculous amounts of money for this little gem!  So what is it?  $500?  $550?  $600?  I think they can put whatever on at least another 500 or 1000 units and come out on top.  This is based solely on observation of the droves of people waiting in line to drop a quick grand on one at shows and auctions.  So, as more people get them, the price would go down.  Yes, that is the rule of supply and demand.  But with every unit sold production costs are offset and profit for NAA goes up.  Just like with the sidewinder now.   As far as defects or problems go, I thought that was the reason for the first 500.  To iron any problems out.  Yes, I did read where one guy blew his up/cracked the frame.  The question is, what was he doing with it?  If I shoot enough +p ammo through my anaconda it'll crack as well.  Taking that into consideration and that it was a legitimate problem.  Why can't the frame be made a little thicker/stronger?  The one I shot seemed to have plenty of room for strengthening all around without compromising size or weight much.  The question I have are really for whoever killed the Ranger at NAA.  I want one, and so do thousands of other people who are willing to pay more than what they listed for.

Ok, I know it not just me gettin old.  WTH is the deal with these verification letters ya gotta type in to post???  Bots suck, but I'm human and can barley read'em!  I gotta have'em read to me! lol

[firemedicntx]

Welcome aboard ......
Well for my opinion I have both the Ranger & Sidewinder and both are well made. Also waiting for the Sidewinder to be out in the market to buy another one...

Well, I gotta say you did good!  One of each!  Wish I woulda jumped in and bought early.  I'm hoping with enough attention, NAA might make a few more.  That is if they care about such things, and I always thought they did.  I'm willin to pay double for a ranger.  The one that went for almost 3 grand the other day was ridiculous.  BTW, what do ya want for yers?

[45flint]

$2000 would buy Ranger #501.   #502 sold for that last week.  There were not many in the 500s. 
I think for NAA it comes down to they are better off to have a gun that they can mass produce and get it in their lineup.  Small custom runs like a another run of Rangers I would think would tie up resources better spent on their main line up.   Also I think the Sidewinder further kills any chance of a Ranger revival, it is a very nice solution to them "normalizing" reloading.

[firemedicntx]

45flint, that might make sense if I didn't own every cap n ball mini they made.  They are slightly different from their centerfire cousins.  Akin to a custom piece, and I have only talked to a few other people in 20 years who have one or even care for the idea.  "Normalizing reloading"  has never been a reason to own an NAA mini.  Every revolver out there has a swing out cylinder.  Nothin special about it really.  Now, who else makes a break top today?

[cedarview kid]

Just FYI, the Ranger wasn't under $400. I think the cost was $450 from the factory plus, of course, shipping and FFL fees to pick it up.

[CavScout]

<snip>
Every revolver out there has a swing out cylinder.  Nothin special about it really.  Now, who else makes a break top today?

I am one who would like to see the Break Top re-visited once NAA gets comfortable with their new machinery. Part of the stated reason the Ranger didn't pencil out was the last quote they got from outside vendors. Another issue was restricting price to a fixed target, rather than seeking what the market would bear.

In contrast to their near cousin, Freedom Arms, NAA has made a conscious decision to stay with an economically priced product line. We can speculate about what would/could sell. But, unless NAA wants to change their business model and enter competition in the $500-$1000+ market, we'll probably continue to see variations of palm sized designs.

H&R continued producing both swing out cylinder and break top models well into the 20th Century. They were never generally accepted as "quality" pieces, and their street pricing reflected that. I had a 999 "Sportsman" and was actually impressed with it... couldn't get beans for it when I put it on GunBroker. We can only wonder how NAA quality would succeed in the midi to full-size handgun market.

It is fun to speculate where NAA could go if they actually made some of our dream guns... .32 ACP Mini anyone? 

[firemedicntx]

Ok, I meant, "Who makes a mini break top?"  lol  While I like the .45 Schofield, I like the Ranger even better!

[firemedicntx]

<snip>
Every revolver out there has a swing out cylinder.  Nothin special about it really.  Now, who else makes a break top today?

I am one who would like to see the Break Top re-visited once NAA gets comfortable with their new machinery. Part of the stated reason the Ranger didn't pencil out was the last quote they got from outside vendors. Another issue was restricting price to a fixed target, rather than seeking what the market would bear.

In contrast to their near cousin, Freedom Arms, NAA has made a conscious decision to stay with an economically priced product line. We can speculate about what would/could sell. But, unless NAA wants to change their business model and enter competition in the $500-$1000+ market, we'll probably continue to see variations of palm sized designs.

H&R continued producing both swing out cylinder and break top models well into the 20th Century. They were never generally accepted as "quality" pieces, and their street pricing reflected that. I had a 999 "Sportsman" and was actually impressed with it... couldn't get beans for it when I put it on GunBroker. We can only wonder how NAA quality would succeed in the midi to full-size handgun market.

It is fun to speculate where NAA could go if they actually made some of our dream guns... .32 ACP Mini anyone? 

The articles I read said that NAA was shooting (yeah, pun intended) for somewhere below $400 after full scale production was up and running.  I saw $399 in one of the rags.  As I understood it, the first 500 were more.

[CavScout]

Ok, I meant, "Who makes a mini break top?"  lol  While I like the .45 Schofield, I like the Ranger even better!

Ironically, the limited production Smith & Wesson Performance Center .45 Schofields and the limited production NAA .22 WMR Ranger are reselling for about the same bucks!!! 

[CavScout]

The articles I read said that NAA was shooting (yeah, pun intended) for somewhere below $400 after full scale production was up and running.  I saw $399 in one of the rags.  As I understood it, the first 500 were more.

NAA_Collector can probably correct this... As I recall the first 500 sold for $449 Early Bird, $499 MSRP Through dealers, and had the $399 target MSRP for continued production goal.

[45flint]

I bought #501 for $525 from my gun shop at the end of the run.  At that time they were going for $1000 on gun broker.  I had that order in for months but those guy were very honest and let me have it, when it would have been very easy for them to turn it themselves.

[CavScout]

I bought #501 for $525 from my gun shop at the end of the run.  At that time they were going for $1000 on gun broker.  I had that order in for months but those guy were very honest and let me have it, when it would have been very easy for them to turn it themselves.

Best business advertising is Word of Mouth! That kind of customer treatment deserves our support whenever found. 

[cedarview kid]

The articles I read said that NAA was shooting (yeah, pun intended) for somewhere below $400 after full scale production was up and running.  I saw $399 in one of the rags.  As I understood it, the first 500 were more.

Oh, right. I got ya. That was actually the problem. NAA charged $450 for the break top "Ranger" prototypes in their Early Bird program, but were trying to get production costs low enough to charge only $400. They couldn't do it, apparently, which is why they canceled plans for the production model.

[CavScout]

Oh, right. I got ya. That was actually the problem. NAA charged $450 for the break top "Ranger" prototypes in their Early Bird program, but were trying to get production costs low enough to charge only $400. They couldn't do it, apparently, which is why they canceled plans for the production model.

Direct from Sandy (March 2011 Soapbox):

"It is with a great sense of disappointment that I announce that NAA has decided NOT to enter into regular production of The Ranger.

As I'd earlier indicated (and as I believe those who've seen one would attest), manufacture of The Ranger required some extraordinary machining skills to achieve the required very tight tolerances, as well as an inordinate amount of hand fitting to make the gun function reliably.  Similarly, I'd indicated that it was a very costly piece to build and that we were making NO $ on the 500 pieces to which we had committed.  It was our hope that, during this first phase we would be able to identify engineering and process modifications which would allow us to enjoy substantial savings such that we could bring the production pieces to market at a target MSRP of $399, which we felt was an appropriate and achievable price point.

Unfortunately, we didn't and we can't, so we won't.  In fact, in response to our request to quote on a commitment of 5000 pieces, our manufacturing partner increased our cost by 25%, clearly indicating to us that they weren't making any $ either."
<snip>

I'm guessing the Sidewinder has the advantage in the hand fitting process. There's a lot going on in the Ranger hinge that's not apparent from the outside. Not to mention the precise lockup of top and bottom frame haves, capturing the cylinder... all the while allowing moving tolerance. The cylinder retaining latch is another close fitting item that doesn't really have a mechanical counterpart on the Sidewinder. Having been a machinist, and working on the internals of many S&W top breaks may give me a different perspective. If I were to try and duplicate one of the two in my home shop (manual & CNC), I would definitely pick the Sidewinder before even thinking about tackling a Ranger. Fantasy... not gonna happen! 

[grayelky]

I have a Break Top and a sidewinder, and currently have no plans to carry either. I, too, would like to see the return of the Ranger. I think it is one of the nicest engineered revolvers I have had the pleasure to handle. Sandy has indicated the targeted price point was under $400 for the BT, and it could not be met. I also have wondered if it would be feasible to announce a BT production run of "X" number (500?) would be made, and see how long it takes to sell out, priced at a profitable point. I also can understand why this is not being done. Why should they? No doubt NAA would be accused of gouging, just to make extra profit and take advantage of a situation. I strongly suspect they can continue to make the revolvers they are currently making, at a completely acceptable profit margin, not have any hassles, AND, no PR nightmare. Our loss, but, I do understand it. I think.

[CavScout]

<snip>
I also have wondered if it would be feasible to announce a BT production run of "X" number (500?) would be made, and see how long it takes to sell out, priced at a profitable point. I also can understand why this is not being done. Why should they? No doubt NAA would be accused of gouging, just to make extra profit and take advantage of a situation. I strongly suspect they can continue to make the revolvers they are currently making, at a completely acceptable profit margin, not have any hassles, AND, no PR nightmare. Our loss, but, I do understand it. I think.

I think the answer to your concerns is to lean on the distributors to order limited runs. That way any notion of profiteering on a unique offering is already expected. It would also be the option of the distributor to order additional runs. If that develops a steady demand, NAA would always have the option to add it to their catalog.

Hopefully, with the new tooling, NAA will be in a better posture to respond to custom run orders. Depending on Utah State labor regs, they may be able to utilize 1099 gunsmiths to help do extra hand fitting without breaking through the 50 employee ceiling.

[45flint]

I can see the desire for this but it makes no practical business sense.  They currently can sell any gun they make now, in fact I think they are backloged with orders.  The Sidewinder makes much more sense for their whole line.  You can increase barrel length like they did with the Earl and expand its market.  Why use resources to retool for a short run makes no sense.  Ultimately they are still running a business.   Also the Sidewinder is very cool, the demand for it I think will exceed their ecpectations, they may never keep up for years.

[Bigbird48]

Just curious, I ordered the sidewinder last week from my dealer, would anyone care to speculate when I might get it (LOL).

[grayelky]

CavScout-
I think you are on the right track. I suspect this would make an excellent candidate for a TALO gun.

45flint-
I agree.

Bigbird48-
I have just checked 3 of my distributors. All have the SW listed, but they also show it to be out of stock. This typically means they have their web site ready, and are waiting on shipments. Sandy has said (in one of his posts/soapbox, don't remember) his goal is to have them at the distributors when it is officially revealed at the SHOT show, so they will actually be available once the formal announcement is made. I hope this works out, as no one else in the industry (that I can remember) has done this. I personally think it would be a fantastic move to have a product actually available once it is announced, as opposed to the product trickling out after a 6 month wait.

Out side of that, no clue.

[Bigbird48]

Yes my distributor has them listed as out of stock also. I have email alerts setup from them so when they get them I will know. But then The dealer has to be on the ball and sometimes mines not. Like last week I bought a lcp 380 and he forgot to call me when I got approved and I waited 7 days to pick up mu gun.ARG! So hopefully he order the sidewinder as soon as they arrive.

[firemedicntx]

I'm guessing the Sidewinder has the advantage in the hand fitting process. There's a lot going on in the Ranger hinge that's not apparent from the outside. Not to mention the precise lockup of top and bottom frame haves, capturing the cylinder... all the while allowing moving tolerance. The cylinder retaining latch is another close fitting item that doesn't really have a mechanical counterpart on the Sidewinder. Having been a machinist, and working on the internals of many S&W top breaks may give me a different perspective. If I were to try and duplicate one of the two in my home shop (manual & CNC), I would definitely pick the Sidewinder before even thinking about tackling a Ranger. Fantasy... not gonna happen! 

Yeah, I read that piece some time ago.  Your summation of it puts it into perspective now.  What I got from it:  Its hard so we don't feel like doing it.  How American!
I live by a different code I guess.  I was taught anything worth doing probably ain't gonna be easy, but worth doing right.    Kinda goes to the core of our nation.  I thought NAA did a great job on the Ranger.  Its a great piece and the hard work shows.  A testament to their craftsmanship.  I understand profit margins, but there are many things more important.  I personally don't place much value on money at all, but I also know I'm the odd man out these days.  My point is I'd pay more for such a piece, and so would many many others.  Enough I believe to make it profitable for the company. 

[heyjoe]

Just curious, I ordered the sidewinder last week from my dealer, would anyone care to speculate when I might get it (LOL).

well th egood news is ill be finally picking up mine tomorrow or wednesday. i have to be almost the last early bird.

[Bigbird48]

Just curious, I ordered the sidewinder last week from my dealer, would anyone care to speculate when I might get it (LOL).

well th egood news is ill be finally picking up mine tomorrow or wednesday. i have to be almost the last early bird.

HEY JOE P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~S

[heyjoe]

Just curious, I ordered the sidewinder last week from my dealer, would anyone care to speculate when I might get it (LOL).

well th egood news is ill be finally picking up mine tomorrow or wednesday. i have to be almost the last early bird.

HEY JOE P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~S

what does P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~S mean?

[Bigbird48]

I'm sticking my tongue out and razing U 

[heyjoe]

well Bigbird i did order it on 6/1

[OV-1D]

  Your lucky Joe for calling of that mixed up paperwork or I'd bet you wouldn't have that EB as a prefix . You really must have the last one , good for you .

[Bigbird48]

yea but neener neener you got one and I'm waiting , and most likely wait a long time. Hell I still haven't got my Mini mag I ordered on the 27 of Dec. Due to my FFL's incompetence, who I no longer have, found a new better one I hope.

[45flint]

Joe not sure yours still qualifies as an "early" bird?  Just saying

[OV-1D]

Yeah Joe Steve has something there LEB late early bird . Maybe you get the grand booby prize and get a holster or patch with it . Were all rooting for ya , Go Joe ,Go Joe ,Go Joe . Again good luck .     JLEB  Joes late early bird .