For carry do you use the Mag or LR cylinder?

[45flint]

Fairly new to NAA only carried the Ranger, it was only Mag.   The Sidewinder gives me a choice.  I really do not like firing the Mag and wonder if my shot placement and confidence with the LR should be a factor.   Out of this short a barrel does it make a huge difference?

[Kevin55]

You bring up the next question on my mind, how much difference does the barrel length make for .22 mag?

Most 22lr and 22mag ammo is designed to be fired out of a rifle with an 18.5" barrel.   Smokeless powder is a propellant, not an explosive, like black powder.   It is designed to burn and push the bullet faster as it travels down the barrel, so much of it is still burning as it exits out of a 1" barrel.  While Googling around for NAA information, I saw some claims the .22lr was almost the same velocity as .22mag in a 1.125" barrel.   The posible reason being the 22lr had additional cylinder length to add to the barrel length.

NAA has a chart of velocities of various ammo, but none using the same ammo on 1", 2", and 4" barrels.  (Or maybe I haven't found it.) It would be interesting to see a chronograph of .22lr, .22mag, and .22mag PDX (Winchesters ammo for handguns, which should mean faster burning powder) shot out of various barrel lengths.

The Mossad is probably the most famous users of .22lr pistols
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/

[oldguy]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/ has some great info on cartridges using various barrel lengths down to 2". No .22WMR yet.

[OV-1D]

     A quality 22 long rifle is by far a better round for these minis , easier on the gun easier for target shooting just about everything a 22 bullet was designed for . 22 mag I believe was a gimmick round just to come up with another caliber in a handgun . Serves no real purpose in a handgun unless it has a 20 inch barrel for the shortest . Waste of money shooting these power rounds in mini's save your cash . I miss shooting just longs wish they bring them back , they have cb's as well as shorts so why not . Guess that macho word magnum plays a part in sales . Sure would like to see a long rifle cylinder for the top break if nothing else but to save the gun .

[CavScout]

<snip>
Smokeless powder is a propellant, not an explosive, like black powder.   It is designed to burn and push the bullet faster as it travels down the barrel, so much of it is still burning as it exits out of a 1" barrel.
<snip>

Generally believed, but a little more to it...

The main place that belief is followed is shipping regulations when powder is packaged in the screw-top tin cans. Both powders need confinement to do their work of rapid expansion (Boom!). Smokeless powder needs much more confinement than the resistance of the screw-top, so when pressure is developing, the top pops off releasing the confinement... allowing the powder to flare burn like a fuel. Black powder needs next to nothing to confine it, so will go boom if the tin can is exposed to an ignition source. During our local 4th of July Parade, our Mountainman group uses toilet paper or cleaning patches tamped down on the charge to get a crowd pleasing boom. 

In a firearm, both types of powder will push unburned powder out the muzzle. The main difference between the two is the pressure curve. Smokeless powder uses burn rate inhibitor coatings to control the pressure curve. Otherwise it would behave like a detonation. In fact there is a theory that if a reduced powder charge lays below the primer, it may cause detonation. This circulates most among Cowboy Action Shooters where they are constantly seeking lowest recoil. Same theory has been there for reduced loads with W296.

A tightly packed black powder charge will burn from the ignition point towards the projectile during its travel down the barrel... as illustrated in Lyman's Black Powder Handbook. At Rendezvous you will frequently see burning ember/smoke trails going beyond the muzzle... more impressive near dusk. 

Also, if black powder were truly an explosive... all those movies we watched where a trail of powder was laid down from the keg. when the powder trail was ignited, the powder trail would travel roughly at the speed of light to the powder magazine! Kind of like trying to light a stick of dynamite with det-cord.

[Dinadan]

45flint - good question. My Pug is my common EDC, with my 1 5/8" Magnum Mini second most common. I expect my Sidewinder to move into the rotation real soon. I have generally carried mag cylinders: not always. With my Pug I really have doubts about whether the mags are really better than LR. When I have tested penetration with some mags and LR, the mags are not clearly superior to LR Velocitors. I wish that NAA posted some ballistics on the Pug with LR and mag rounds so we could have somewhat more scientific comparison. With my 1 5/8" Magnum mini, mag rounds definitely penetrate more than LR when I tested them. I have not done any testing with the Sidewinder. I note that in the Gunblast review of the Sidewinder:

http://www.gunblast.com/NAA-Sidewinder.htm

some of the LR was pretty close to comparable weight mags. If I really believed his numbers for CCI Mini-mag HP then that would be my carry load for sure in my Sidewinder. I have pointed out before (and will again for sure) that when you fire LR out of a mag cylinder, that adds 3/8" of barrel for the LR ammo. The shorter the barrel the more advantage that gives the LR.

Anyway, I am leaning toward switching to LR Velocitors for carry, though the Gunblast review suggests that a couple of other LR rounds are a better choice.

[Kevin]

I've got a standard NAA mini-revolver with both a .22mag and .22lr cylinder and carry it with the .22mag for the extra power, but it's larger size makes it a more of a pants or jacket pocket model. I also have a NAA mini-revolver in .22lr. The shorter cylinder/frame of the .22lr makes that one more comfortable for shirt pocket carry and less noticeable with dress shirts.

If Obomber is successful in banning hi-capacity magazines, I may adopt the old NYPD motto: "Take 5 and dive!". Back in the days of 5-shot S&W revolvers for detectives, it was recommended they carry a spare revolver. In the event of a shootout, the plan was for a detective to shoot his first revolver empty and duck behind cover to draw his backup revolver while his partner emptied his revolver. With NAA mini-revolvers, you just get one of those photographer's vests and put a mini-revolver in each pocket. In the event of a defensive shooting, an anti-gun district attorney will give you a pass, rather than blowing the county's forensic budget doing ballistic tests on a couple dozen revolvers. 

[black_cat]

i don't care what anyone says, showing that you're able to sacrifice your maximum firepower weighs heavily in your favor with the jury. go with an lr cylinder and leave an empty chamber. if you can, fire a warning shot. if you can leave a gun shaped bruise on their head. note, for the bruise to show up they need to live for about 3 minutes after you hit them, don't go trying to prep a dead body.

most people frown on warning shots, these are people that have never been in front of a jury. fire a warning shot at no greater than 45 degrees if shooting into dirt. if all you have is pavement, fire at no less than 85 degrees.

one thing i definitely agree upon, shoot to kill. if you have a shot that would go through both lungs take it but know it's going to take a good 30 seconds to drop them if you're not making an exit wound and that's when it's going through their heart also. the best shot with a .22 lr is probably at the base of the neck right between the collar bones. there's only one shot that's more deadly with a .22 lr, and you'll probably have a motherfker of a time at trial if you go for it. back of the neck between the base of the skull and the top vertebra.

if you're all alone when you're attacked you'll probably do better than if you have witnesses. regardless of whether or not they want to be, they're all liars. they never remember anything exactly the way it happened. everyone wants to be a hero on the stand and some wont give a rats ass if they need to fry a perfectly innocent person who was forced to defend themselves to get that feeling. people from nyc are notorious for this type of behavior. any non lethal attempt to defend yourself will be skewed to represent you as a willing participant in a "fight". if witnesses are present, make sure you get every single one of them to see what's going on. the ones that lie will have a different story than the ones that don't. the ones that remember well will have a different story than the ones that don't. the more conflicting reports you have the better. it makes it ridiculously hard to prove anything at all let alone prove beyond a shadow. if you have lots of witnesses, let them do the talking, stfu. you have no idea what these witnesses are about to say, why take a risk that you might flub a detail. they're going to charge you with SOMETHING, it may as well be murder 1. don't talk to the cops, don't talk to the media, for any reason WHAT-SO-EVER. this will put a great deal of weapons in your lawyers hands, you just fought for your life tooth and claw, WHY WOULD YOU STOP DEFENDING YOURSELF TOOTH AND CLAW NOW???

also, if they ask you, you're hungery and thursty and very tired.

get some tylenol and ib as soon as you can(head ake). they flush out bruises and make them appear more severe. cameras only catch the light that reflects off the surface of your skin. they don't see bruises as well as your eyes can. they'll be taking pictures of you right away but they will also be taking pictures of you tomorrow or the next day as well. before the first set, don't clean yourself up. don't wipe away any dried blood. don't brush your hair with your fingers. if you're bleeding, bleed! unless you really need to stop the bleeding of course.

that said, hope this never happens to you. hf gl dd.

side note: naa .22lr mini revolvers don't leave any identifying marks on the bullets they fire, mine didn't anyway, according to the ballistic expert's testimony. but, it's also one of very few guns that don't so, it is to say that, it's like blood soaked in ammonia, they can figure the blood type but they can't get a dna match.... yet....

oh umm i think lr is fine.

[tocsn40]

What he said

[Kevin55]

This is the kind of test you wanted.

NAA PUG shooting 22lr and 22mag through a chronograph.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-539222.html

The best
Winchester Super X .22 Magnum: 68.29 ft-lbs
Federal Spitfire HP lr.  57.61 ft-lbs

[black_cat]

hey kev, why did ya vote for mag? looks like from that data that the spitfire out preformed the mag's.

regardless, i suppose, the mags do have a better chance of starting clothing on fire.

[PJ Garrison]

I carry magnums for CCW (.22lrs are only used in practice).  .22 rimfires are already marginal stoppers, so I want the hardest hitting ammo I can get if my life is going to be on the line.  And the Magnums do have a real advantage over the LRs. 

Take, for example, the 1 & 5/8" magnum (the model I own).  According to the NAA ballistic data, the best 40gr Magnum load is 150+ fps faster than the best 40gr Long Rifle round.  In 30gr loadings, the magnum has 200+fps over the long rifle.  Or you can take the 50 gr magnum which is nearly as fast as the best .22 LRs but has 25% more weight.  All of these represent a significant power upgrade. 

And that's not counting the newer .22 mag loads that are optimised for short barreled guns.

There's also the psychological advantage of that huge magnum muzzle blast.  It makes it sound like a bigger gun.  I'm not saying it's something that would help in every gunfight, but it may give the offending party something else to consider.

i don't care what anyone says, showing that you're able to sacrifice your maximum firepower weighs heavily in your favor with the jury. go with an lr cylinder and leave an empty chamber. if you can, fire a warning shot. 

Wow, that seems a little illogical.

If sacrificing firepower actually does matter to a jury (and I think it's highly unlikely), the fact that I'm shooting a mini-revolver instead of a full-sized handgun should be more than enough to prove that I wasn't going full-powered.  It's hard to make me look like a warmongering barbarian when my gun is more cute than menacing.

Likewise, I'm a little concerned by the suggestion that I should carry 4 rounds, and use one of them for a warning shot.  This leaves me with 3 rounds for the actual fighting.  These little guns are already marginal for self-defense, and carrying less than the maximum is going to make it even harder for them to do what they need to do.

Warning shots are also heavily frowned upon by legal experts, for multiple reasons. Many people who do use warning shorts are prosecuted for doing so, under some other pretense (reckless endangerment, attempted murder, etc). 

All shots (even warning shots), are considered to be deadly force.  In general, you can't use deadly force unless someone else is threatening you with it first.  By not attacking your attacker, you are implying that the situation was less dangerous.  This makes your case look much weaker in court.

This is a good example:  http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

Please do some research.  I'd hate to see you on the news one day, arrested for firing a warning shot while the dirtbag walked away as the victim.

[black_cat]

you bring up some good points but these aren't really weapons for a gunfight. they're more for preemptive or sneak-attack imho. the best thing these things have on their side is that they're not going to be taken seriously if they're even recognized at all. a gun that you can carry ccw in your hand is better than something you can carry ccw down your pants.

[black_cat]

Please do some research.  I'd hate to see you on the news one day, arrested for firing a warning shot while the dirtbag walked away as the victim.

i thank you for your best wishes. i made my post from personal experiences.

your link didn't load anything. i don't doubt the claim however, but that was florida, they just convict or vindicate based on how they feel that particular day. by no means am i suggesting that if your warning shots are successful as a deterrent that you should stick around to be caught.

[fistmil]

When carrying, I use the magnum cylinder. For plinking and dispatching small game and snakes, I use LR. When hunting or canoeing
I carry the LR in my vest pocket. I have the 1 5/8" mini mag and love this little gun.

[Wm.Evans]

I carry both!

I keep the WMR cylinder loaded and in the gun.  I've got Winchester PDX-1 loaded in it, which is supposedly optimized for shorter barrels.  I carry the LR cylinder loaded in a small leather pouch in my pocket.  I've practiced swapping out the cylinders (unloaded, of course) many times and I can actually do it pretty quickly.  Carrying both cylinders allows for a fast(er) reload and it also gives me a bit of versatility when I'm on the road; sometimes an opportunity to do some recreational shooting presents itself unexpectedly.  LR is often easier to find than WMR, and it's certainly cheaper.  Plus most civilized people have a brick or two of LR laying around anyway.

[Uncle_Lee]

"A tightly packed black powder charge will burn from the ignition point towards the projectile during its travel down the barrel... as illustrated in Lyman's Black Powder Handbook. At Rendezvous you will frequently see burning ember/smoke trails going beyond the muzzle... more impressive near dusk."

Black powder revolver in the dark.

[heyjoe]

I carry both!

I keep the WMR cylinder loaded and in the gun.  I've got Winchester PDX-1 loaded in it, which is supposedly optimized for shorter barrels.  I carry the LR cylinder loaded in a small leather pouch in my pocket.  I've practiced swapping out the cylinders (unloaded, of course) many times and I can actually do it pretty quickly.  Carrying both cylinders allows for a fast(er) reload and it also gives me a bit of versatility when I'm on the road; sometimes an opportunity to do some recreational shooting presents itself unexpectedly.  LR is often easier to find than WMR, and it's certainly cheaper.  Plus most civilized people have a brick or two of LR laying around anyway.

i agree i have gotten pretty fast myself swapping cylinders. i have a holster that has a pouch built in for the cylinder.

[black_cat]

ya idk, it's hard to imagine a situation where u might want a backup cylinder but the way these things usually unfold, are always under unimaginable circumstances. so ehh.

[gofishr]

I"ll carry the 22mag..........

[richardb]

The only time my 22LR cylinder is loaded is for practice at the range. Other wise it is carried with 22 Mag.

[Uncle_Lee]

Mag in both.

[CavScout]

<snip>
Black powder revolver in the dark.
<snip>

A picture is worth... Clearly demonstrates the importance of keeping the weak hand well behind a revolver's cylinder gap. For smokeless or black powder.

[45flint]

Surprised at the spray back through the percussion cap!

[Uncle_Lee]

Surprised at the spray back through the percussion cap!

That is why one should wear eye protection (along with hearing protection).
It is a wonder that all the old gun fighters weren't blind. Maybe that is why they ALWAYS held the revolver with a straight arm. Full distance from the face.

[RogueTS1]

22 mag for carry; .22 LR for the range.