380 Guardian Recoil and Sheared Grip Screws

[longhunter]

Hi folks, been away a long time. Want to share some info about a recent 380 auto CCW shoot. Friend of mine bought a Bersa Thunder, his wife bought a Sig/Sauer P238, and I had my NAA. The Bersa, as most of you know, is a sort of poor man's Walther PPK and the P238 is a baby M1911. The NAA is a little heavier than the Sig, lighter than the Bersa. Felt recoil from my NAA was HUGE compared to either of the others. One of my grip screws even sheared during the shooting! My main carry gun is a Springfield Armory Micro Stainless 45acp, so I don't mind recoil, but I offer this to anyone anticipating a purchase. My NAA Guardian goes bang 100% of the time and I love it!

[PJ Garrison]

Felt recoil from my NAA was HUGE compared to either of the others.

Blowback pistols tend to have nasty recoil, and I can't imagine it would be fun to shoot an NAA in .380 (though I imagine it carries nicely).

The Bersa is also a blowback, but because it's a bigger, heavier gun, it should have milder recoil than the tiny .380 NAA.  The bigger grip also probably helps a lot.  The downside is that the Bersa is bulkier than it needs to be.

The Sig 238, on the other hand, is a locked breech gun.  This means that the mechanism absorbs the recoil better, so it won't have nearly as much recoil. 

[black_cat]

i hear the 380 works flawlessly. i've seen many videos of 32acp stove pipes but havent seen any in the .25 because i havent seen any .25 vids. anyone have any opinions on the .25?

[cedarview kid]

My Guardian .380 is an awesome gun. I love it. It's the first .380 to leave the NAA factory as a retail sale (from the very first Early Bird program). Mine looks sweet with checkered wood. But it does spank my hand pretty good, especially if there's a nip in the air. I love it's construction, it's looks, and the feel in my hand.

But, I do carry a polymer 9mm with a locked breach that has even less felt recoil for the 9mm than does the Guardian .380. That doesn't mean I don't like the Guardian though; not at all!

[cfsharry]

Can anyone explain why the closed breach would present less felt recoil? Is the recoil impulse spread over a longer duration and thus feels softer? I've shot both and have always attributed differences in felt recoil to ergonomics of gun rather than action type. I'm not very recoil sensitive however and, as such, have not thought about it a lot.

[black_cat]

because it redirects a portion of the recoil, laterally.

[longhunter]

Thanks black cat. I had forgotten that - much like porting sends the mass of the propellent in another direction. Again, thanks; I was wondering about that.

One more thing, though. With the ammo shortage we had bought whatever steel, aluminum, third world ammo we could find. The Sig failed to cylce 100% of the time on one box of ammo, the Bersa would jam every Winchester White Box flat point round, but my G380 hungrily ate every round I fed it of all the ammo! Going bang every time!

[cfsharry]

Please explain how a portion of the recoil is redirected laterally.

[heyjoe]

i cant wait for this one

[black_cat]

Please explain how a portion of the recoil is redirected laterally.

on an m16 it forces the front half of the bolt to rotate before unlocking the breach.

[cfsharry]

The handgun mentioned is the SIG P238. No rotating bolt. How is the recoil redirected laterally?

[black_cat]

i dont believe you made it clear that you were only interested in how a sig works as a locked breach mechanism.

but feel free to get all nerd rage about it (:

[heyjoe]

on an m16 it forces the front half of the bolt to rotate before unlocking the breach.


[/quote]

irrelevant

and

just what i thought. you know nothing about guns

[cfsharry]

Nerd Rage. I like that phrase. A pretty apt description of the majority of your posts.
As the origional post is regarding handguns and as the SIG is the only one of the three that is a locked breech mechanism, it becomes obvious that we are not discussing an M16, for which, by the way, your rationale is wrong. So, if you can answer the question, please do so. If you can not, feel free to misdirect.

[black_cat]

Nerd Rage. I like that phrase. A pretty apt description of the majority of your posts.
As the origional post is regarding handguns and as the SIG is the only one of the three that is a locked breech mechanism, it becomes obvious that we are not discussing an M16, for which, by the way, your rationale is wrong. So, if you can answer the question, please do so. If you can not, feel free to misdirect.

lol, what are you like 12? "i'm rubber yer glue." grow up geek.

[cfsharry]

As expected, you attempt to cover your lack of  knowledge through misdirection. And, again, your youth, ignorance and inability to communicate in a rational manner does make you irrelevant to this forum. Ta ta.

[black_cat]

[longhunter]

To maybe get back on topic, I believe black cat has it right. The Sig, as a baby version of John Browning's Model 1911, has a locked breach, where there is a lot of mechanism to spread the recoil out over a longer time period. Same m1v1 = m2v2, but the peak is lower. I did notice that the barrel of the Sig tilts up quite a bit when locked back, so thanks, black cat, for pointing me in the right direction. All makes sense now.

[longhunter]

Sorry, that was PJ that pointed out those points.

[longhunter]

Anyway, I certainly don't want to discourage anyone who is considering buying a G380 or either of the others we shot. It was an interesting opportunity to try various handguns with the same variety of ammunition. My G380 had zero malfunctions with any ammo. The others malfunctioned repeatedly with one or more ammo types. Note that all had a load they were 100% with.

A fun day of shooting!

[cfsharry]

Longhunter,
You're looking, I believe, in the right direction; recoil spread over a longer duration. This is in no way related to 'a portion of the recoil being redirected laterally'.

[longhunter]

Well, the sheared grip screw is extracted, grips are reinstalled, the weekend is near, so it's off to the range! BTW an "Easy Out" is a very misnamed tool, neither easy, nor usually does it get anthing out. I used a sewing needle to slowly screw it out.

[cedarview kid]

Laterally. LOL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation

[longhunter]

Nice article! M1*V1 must equal M2*V2, but not always at the same instant nor in the same direction! Vertically would have been a better choice of words since JMB's 1911 barrel flips vertically, but the result is the same; recoil delayed/redirected. All the recoil is still there, but the part that spanks our hand is elsewhere.

Nice discussion. Thanks to all.

[longhunter]

I meant to mention also, I remember the wood grips feeling loose during the shoot. The grip screw on one side had backed out under many rounds of recoil so all of the recoil was going to it. There was only 1 thread left. My fault for not tightening.

[redhawk4]

Personally I think the distance the slide has to move back makes the most difference to recoil rather than the type of operating system. The Guardian 380's total slide movement is very small and as a result very stiff springs are used in comparison to the recoil springs on say a Beretta M9. This gives a short but fierce recoil cycle. Both the Bersa and the Sig are slightly bigger framed so that would likely mean bigger slide movement and softer springs. While it is true that various other movements of parts in a non blowback pistol can reduce or redirect some of the energy all things being equal I'm not sure you would actually notice the difference.

[cedarview kid]

Redhawk, my DB9 can't be much bigger than my Guardian .380, but the .380 still hurts my hand, but the 9mm does not. I'm pretty sure the locked breach is the reason why.

[redhawk4]

It could have more to do with the grip shape etc. relative to your hand. I could say on the same basis that a Guardian 320 has more recoil than a 380, as to me it is very painful to shoot - in reality it obviously doesn't.

As an engineer I'd like to see a full explanation as to how the small linkage, tipping up of the barrel or whatever can really make the huge difference people claim. After all recoli is just the opposite reaction to the energy of the bullet going in the opposite direction and most of this will be absorbed by how far the slide moves back and the spring rates used all other things like the gun weight being equal. It seems that blowback pistols in general have less slide movement than those  with more sophisticated set ups. I'm not saying I'm right, but I just don't see how the mechanical differences can make much difference to the felt recoil.

[cedarview kid]

Well, it seems some Google research may be in order. I don't have the information on this at hand, but I'd say check out the Internet and see what you can find about the benefits of a locked breach.

Back in about 1999, I started the "Concealed" email group on YahooGroups (well, before Yahoo bought OneList, anyway). This group is now one of the biggest concealed carry discussion forums on YahooGroups, although I've handed off moderatorship to someone else since then. But this topic of discussion came up often. So, from those discussions with other concealed carriers who were more knowledgeable on this topic that I was, I became fully convinced that the locked breach leads to less felt recoil and it's not just the length of the slide movement or the shape of the grip.

I don't undersand all of the physics in play, but I'm sure you can find out more information about it. You can possibly start with the link I provided a few posts above this one.

[redhawk4]

I've even tried looking at the components of the gun and how the internals move and I just do not see the potential for the huge difference people claim. I'd like to understand it because it really interests me and there may be something to it I'm missing, but the most I've seen from researching it before is it's something everyone seems to repeat verbatum, but without seemingly explanation or necessarily understanding.

I will endeavor to do some further searching to get to the bottom of it.

[bud]

Found this example:

Actions: blowback versus locked breech
Main articles: Blowback (arms) and Recoil operation

Self-loading automatic pistols can be divided into "blowback" and "locked breech" categories according to their principle of operation. The blowback operating principle is suitable for smaller, low-powered calibres, such as 7.65mm Browning (also known as .32 ACP), and 9mm Browning Short (also known as .380 ACP) as the resistance of the recoil spring and mass of the slide are sufficient to retard the opening of the breech until the projectile has left the barrel, and breech pressure has dropped to a safe level. For more powerful calibres such as the 9mm Parabellum (9mmP) and .45 ACP, some form of locked breech is needed to retard breech opening, as an unlocked blowback pistol in these calibres requires a very heavy slide and stiff spring, making them bulky, heavy and difficult to operate. A somewhat commercially successful blowback pistol design in the more powerful calibres was produced; the Spanish Astra 400 in 9mm Largo and the similar Astra 600 in 9mm Parabellum. U.S. manufacturer Hi-Point also produces a line of blowback operated pistols in several calibers including 9mmP and .45 ACP. Virtually all other service-caliber pistols are locked breech designs.

[redhawk4]

So from what I'm reading it's the need for a heavier recoil spring to keep the slide from opening too soon on a blow back design that gives it the extra recoil, not any magic in the locking mechanism/linkage etc. reducing it for other designs as many seem to quote, when stating a blow back pistol has more recoil. The Guardian 380 definitely uses stout springs, most people can't pull the slide back on mine, at least at first until they realize it's going to take some brute force. In comparison my Beretta M9 barely feels like it has a recoil spring after you've had a work out on the Guardian.

Thanks for the post Bud, I believe that has solved the mystery for me, I was looking for something that wasn't there based on what others have been saying about the reasons for the recoil differences - it's simply the heavy recoil spring that's the culprit.

[cedarview kid]

I'm not sure I buy stronger springs as the explanation.

[redhawk4]

Why not? fit a heavier recoil spring to any gun and you will feel more recoil.

[lohman446]

I have a Sig P232 (.380 direct blow back) and P938 (9MM - I believe locked breech). 

I am not fully familiar with the technical differences.  From what I understand a direct blow back pistol much of the "recoil" felt is the slide slamming against the slide stops (and also why blowbacks are VERY uncommon above .380).  Sig lists the weight of my particular P232 (stainless) at 18.5 ounces and the P938 at 16 ounces. 

Everytime I shoot the P232 I am surprised at the recoil.  I am not with the P938 I love the gun and enjoy shooting it but its recoil heavy, in my experience, for a .380.  The P938 seems to have less felt recoil.  Now I am not an expert on the subject and realize that there are a number of factors - action type, geometry of the grip, grip type, etc.  However I do realize that a smaller cartridge does not always equate to less felt recoil.   I have not shot the Gaurdian.  From my memory the recoil in the P232 is more noticeable than the P3AT I had but I have not shot them side by side either.