Ok now i'm sick

[bud]

Lohman446,

   

   Would Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Pakistan allow a Christian Church be built in their country near the area where it was attacked by people of the Christian faith?

   

   The U.S.A. WILL allow Muslims to build a Mosque in our country, but do not want it built near ground zero!!

   

   Thousands of families didn't enjoy Thanksgiving as I hope you and your family did,because of what happened on 9-11.

   

   Yes, there are strip joints and gambling parlors near ground zero, which you will not find in a Muslim country, but they like to visit them here.  

   

   I think the only reason they want to build the Masque there, is their way of saying-- in your face. How and why are they so insensitive to the fact that thousands of people were killed near that area by people of their Islamic religion?

[heyjoe]

to add salt to the wound, they want federal funds to build it. we dont have money for our own people but we should build a mosque for them.

   

   go to google maps and do a search for park pl and church st in manhattan go to street view and you can see how close it is to WTC. Longer shots have been claimed here for the mini. The site selected is a nothing more than a big FU to americans.

[lohman446]

Using Saudi Arabia as an example of what is proper is a poor choice at best is it not?  Oddly enough due to the divide in Islamic teachings Iran was actually more tolerant of other religions and churches were able to be found.  

   

   The term American is an interesting term.  Are the people building it somehow not Americans?  I am not for a moment suggesting we allow Islamic law.  I have no problem with any religion as long as it respects the law of the land.  

   

   I have listened to interviews with the particular Imam involved in this.  I hate to say it but his reasoning seemed pretty compelling compared to the knee jerk reaction against it.  

   

   Now I am against using federal funds for any religious purpose.  I wasn't around when the conversation was going on but this was a mistake that heralds back a decade (there abouts)with faith based initiatives at the federal level

[lohman446]

I would point out that any religion can be used for evil.  You see it in Islam today in many parts of the world.  You saw it in Christianity during the Crusades.  Zen Buddhism played its own part in the Japanese militarization of WW2.  The battle is not with Islam, it is with those who would use it for evil.

[bud]

I guess Saudi Arabia is a poor choice to use as to judge what is proper, since all of the hijackers but one were from Saudi Arabia!

[heyjoe]

the application for 5 million dollars has nothing to do with building the mosque, it has everything to do with getting hostile reactions from americans which can then be used to further the cause in the muslim world. They dont even have a board of trustees set up, a funding mechanism or actual plans.

   They are at war with us even if we wish to keep our heads in the sand and deny it to ourselves.

   

   see my next post ( it wont fit in one post)

[heyjoe]

Published November 27, 2010

   | Associated Press

   

   PORTLAND, Ore. – Undercover agents in a sting operation arrested a Somali-born teenager just as he tried blowing up a van full of what he believed were explosives at a crowded Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Portland, federal authorities said.

   

   The bomb was a fake supplied by the agents and the public was never in danger, authorities said.

   

   Mohamed Osman Mohamud, 19, was arrested at 5:40 p.m. Friday just after he dialed a cell phone that he thought would set off the blast but instead brought federal agents and police swooping down on him.

   

   Yelling "Allahu Akbar!" — Arabic for "God is great!" — Mohamud tried to kick agents and police after he was taken into custody, according to prosecutors.

   

   "The threat was very real," said Arthur Balizan, special agent in charge of the FBI in Oregon. "Our investigation shows that Mohamud was absolutely committed to carrying out an attack on a very grand scale,"

   The FBI affidavit that outlined the investigation alleges that Mohamud planned the attack for months, at one point mailing bomb components to FBI operatives, whom he believed were assembling the device.

   

   It said Mohamud was warned several times about the seriousness of his plan, that women and children could be killed, and that he could back out, but he told agents: "Since I was 15 I thought about all this;" and "It's gonna be a fireworks show ... a spectacular show."

   

   Mohamud, a naturalized U.S. citizen living in Corvallis, was charged with attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison. A court appearance was set for Monday. Few details were available about him late Friday.

   

   Authorities allowed the plot to proceed in order to build up enough evidence to charge the suspect with attempt.

   

   Officials didn't say if the suspect had any ties to other Americans recently accused of trying to carry out attacks on U.S. soil, including alleged efforts in May by a Pakistan-born man to set off a car bomb near Times Square or another Pakistan-born Virginia resident accused last month in a bomb plot to kill commuters.

   

   U.S. Attorney Dwight Holton released federal court documents to The Associated Press and the Oregonian newspaper that show the sting operation began in June after an undercover agent learned that Mohamud had been in regular e-mail contact with an "unindicted associate" in Pakistan's northwest, a frontier region where al-Qaida and Afghanistan's Taliban insurgents are strong.

   

   The two used coded language in which the FBI believes Mohamud discussed traveling to Pakistan to prepare for "violent jihad," the documents said.

   

   In June an FBI agent contacted Mohamud "under the guise of being affiliated with" the suspected terrorist. But the documents did not say how federal officials first became aware of Mohamud.

   

   An undercover agent met with him a month later in Portland, where they "discussed violent jihad," according to the court documents.

   

   As a trial run, Mohamud and agents detonated a bomb in Oregon's backcounry earlier this month.

   

   "This defendant's chilling determination is a stark reminder that there are people — even here in Oregon — who are determined to kill Americans," Holton said.

   

   Friday, an agent and Mohamud drove to downtown Portland in a white van that carried six 55-gallon drums with detonation cords and plastic caps, but all of them were inert, the complaint states.

   

   They left the van near the downtown ceremony site and went to a train station where Mohamud was given a cell phone that he thought would blow up the vehicle, according to the complaint. There was no detonation when he dialed, and when he tried again federal agents and police made their move.

   

   Omar Jamal, first secretary to the Somali mission to the United Nations, condemned the plot and urged Somalis to cooperate with police and the FBI.

   

   "Talk to them and tell them what you know so we can all be safe," Jamal said.

   

   Somalia Foreign Minister Mohamed Abullahi Omaar said his government is "ready and willing" to offer the U.S. any assistance it may need to prevent similar attempts.

   

   "It is a tragic for the family of the young man, it is a tragic for the people he tried to harm. It is a tragic for all of us here," said Omaar, whose government is holed up in a few blocks of the capital, Mogadishu, while much of the country's southern and central regions are ruled by Islamist insurgents.

   

   "Mohamud's attempt is neither representative nor an example of Somalis. Somalis are peace loving people."

   

   Tens of thousands of Somalis have resettled in the United States since their country plunged into lawlessness in 1991.

   

   U.S. authorities have been struggling against a recent spate of terror plans by U.S. citizens or residents.

   

   In the Times Square plot, Faisal Shazhad allegedly tried to set off a car bomb at a bustling street corner. U.S. authorities had no intelligence about Shahzad's plot until the smoking car turned up in Manhattan.

   

   Late last month, Farooque Ahmed, 34, of Virginia was arrested and accused of casing Washington-area subway stations in what he thought was an al-Qaida plot to bomb and kill commuters. Similar to the Portland sting, the bombing plot was a ruse conducted over the past six months by federal officials.

   

   And a year ago in another federal sting, 19-year-old Jordanian Hosam Smadi was arrested on charges he intended to bomb a downtown Dallas skyscraper. Federal officials said he placed what he believed was a car bomb outside the building but was instead a decoy device given him by an undercover FBI agent.

   

   ___

[lohman446]

We have to seperate those who would use a religion for evil and those that would follow them from the others involved in a religion or we will find ourselves with far too many enemies.  There are those who peacefully practice a much gentler form of Islam just as many people practice a very gentle form of Christianity.  The fact is there are many people who peacefully (and without honor killings, women essentially enslaved, etc) practice Islam.  These people are not our enemies.

[bud]

No one said those who peacefully practice a gentle form of Islam are our enemies. My question would be to them, if they are against the evil form of Islam, why don't they come out and condemn the killing of innocent lives!

   

   Example, see Heyjoes post above your post!!  

   

    If all of the good Muslims who practice Islamic faith, and are against these terrorist acts would band together and help us fight the killing of innocent lives, this would and could be stopped now. Why do they just sit back and do nothing? We are not talking about those who peacefully practice Islamic faith. I am talking about those who KILL in the name of Allah.

[Uncle_Lee]

"I have listened to interviews with the particular Imam involved in this. I hate to say it but his reasoning seemed pretty compelling compared to the knee jerk reaction against it."

   

   Have you ever heard the terms "to lie" & "mislead".

   

   Almost the entire world belived Hitler when he said "this is my last demand for land".

   

   This IS a victory mosque and nothing more.

   Don't base reality on the evening news or 60 minutes.

   

   Did you do a search and see what is going on in Europe right now?

   

   They move in peaceable until they have the numbers then they insist on Islamic law.  

   

   Look at history.

   

   tic-toc, tic-toc, ring, ring, time to wake up.

   Those who sleep through history will have to repeat it.

   

   To me, to be an American, is a feeling-love of Country the way the founders wanted it.

   There are those even in our government that I don't consider to be good Americans.  

   It is not where you were born or your religion. It is a feeling in your heart.

[gunfitrip]

We might consider what the ultimate end of Islam and the Islamic faith is.  It is to enter a non muslim area and conquer. Once conquered, Sharia law is put in place and all citizens are subjegated to the rule.  In my book, that would be against the highest law of our land, the U.S. Constitution.  Is the practice of Islam legal in the U.S.? Just a question. Should its practice be protected by our Constitution that it would supplant? Does not the First Amendment to the Constitution protect all the rest of our faiths to be practiced that Islam would destroy if allowed to proceed to its ultimate aim? How about if your religion involved human sacrifice? Would the law allow that?  Of course not. Look at religions that provide for polygamy.  Our country does not allow that.  Why then do we allow a religion to be practiced that would place us all in subjegation? Or do we just allow its practice up to blowing us up or attempting to impose Sharia law on us which has been tried already.  Look at England. They now have Sharia law courts in action.  What a mess.  How about France? Don't think they have problems based on Islam having immigrated into their country? Oh well.

[Dinadan]

Too many of us Western Civilization people are

   brainwashed by the moral relativism movement. No  

   one wants to say that another religion or culture

   is just wrong. That would be insensitive. Of  

   course, the people who want to destroy us are not

   real big on sensitivity.

[dwalk]

Let's see,

   

   -In Smyth Co, Arkansas, a Muslim, Emad Hatem Abdullah, 21, threw a bottle out of his pickup truck followed by a loud bang. Police investigated,and thankfully, he's been charged with 1 felony count of throwing a missile at a vehicle, and 4 counts of manufacturing and possessing explosive devices.

   

   -In Iraq, Muslims are threatening Christians, "Leave Iraq immediately,or you will be killed by us".

   

   -In Texas, Muslim businessman, Samir Mahmoud Itani, and his company, American Grocers Ltd, used paint solvent to remove expiry labels from food containers, then added phony labels, and sold it to the US military in Iraq. He was being a 'good' Muslim, practicing takiyya (lying -it's taught in their Koran), ripping off infidels (US taxpayers in this case), and short-changing US soldiers in the messhall, possibly endangering their health.

   

   -In Portland, Oregon, Mohamed Osman Mohamud, 19, tried to car-bomb large crowds at a Christmas tree lighting. He was yelling, "Allahu Akbar!" and trying to kick police officers when he was arrested. He didn't care that children, babies, would be killed.

   

   -As of today, worldwide, Muslims have launched 16,439 deadly attacks since 9/11

   

   -we hear some dhimmis (non-Muslims who accept Muslim superiority) bleating, "Not all Muslims attempt mass murder in Oregon".

   Right.

   And not all Nazis wanted to kill Jews,  

   so let's not blame all Nazis for the actions of some Nazis.(eyes rolled up at such insanity)

   

   Throw leftist idiots out of office before they get us all killed.

   

   Stop Muslim immigration now!

[Uncle_Lee]

Looks like Gunfitrip did the search on what is happening in Europe at this time.

   They will not be happy until they CONTROL.

[bobt]

The United States is threatened by a number of groups that will not be satisfied until they "control".

   At the top of my list is China. China is kicking our rear end economically. And when was the last time China spent trillions of dollars fostering bad will, trying to subdue Islamic countries that do not want to be subdued?

   Second on my list is the Islam that wants to forcefully subvert the laws of our land.  

   Third is North Korea. Not because of their strength or likelyhood of success but because, at this point in time a war with them would weaken our economy.

   Fourth is Mexico due primarily to the drug cartels operating within its border.

   So, the question in my mind is not what to do about Islam, but what to do about all of these threats?  

   I do not know if it is still the case, but we were able to legally discriminate against communists because they wanted to forcefully overthrow the United States. Can we apply the same discrimination against groups with the same agenda?

[Uncle_Lee]

"I do not know if it is still the case, but we were able to legally discriminate against communists because they wanted to forcefully overthrow the United States. Can we apply the same discrimination against groups with the same agenda?"

   

   To speak ill of Islam is not politically correct.

[newguy]

Bobt:  Have you looked lately?  We have stopped discriminating against Communists and have elected them to some of the highest offices in the land............

   

   And China does not spend trillions of dollars trying to subdue Islamic anything.  They just kill them.............  they "disappear"

   

   China subdues other nations against their will....heard of Nepal?

[bud]

Don't forget the damage being done by WIKILEAKS!

[lohman446]

Gunfitrip brings up interesting points that are actually researched and reasoned.  Well I think there are kinder and gentler forms of Islam out there most of you are basing your hate for something you have very little understanding of and are picking out the worst of the worst.  

   

   Its about as fair as stating gun violence is only done by gun owners so we should hold all gun owners accountable.

[heyjoe]

Muslims tried to kill me twice, and killed many people i knew for many years and some i grew up with. The attempted attacks continue unabated. i have all the understanding i need.

[lohman446]

So what is the solution?  Ban the practice of a particular religion as a whole in America?  I am not for a moment defending specific acts but we already have laws against them.

[bud]

When the twin towers were brought down on 9-11, Muslims around the world cheered when they heard the news. I know of no other religion besides the Islamic religion that was delighted to hear about the loss of life. The Muslims in the U.S.also was happy to hear the news. Maybe there were a few that was sad, mad,or hurt, but they would have been hard to find. I didn't see any protest from any Muslims about what had happened on that day of the attack.

   

   In this country, we will never ban any religion, we are free to worship however we choose.

[heyjoe]

to show their appreciation for allowing them freedom of religion in the usa

   

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B1FHeIP53Q">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B1FHeIP53Q

[Dinadan]

Lohman446,

        The really scary thought is - what if there  

   is no solution? We are accepting the TSA and other

   government agencies converting us from citizens into

   subjects in the name of security - yet security is no better

   that it was before the TSA goons got their badges.

   

   The ancient Roman Republic had a provision that  

   when things got completely out of control, they  

   could appoint a dictator to do whatever  

   had to be done to preserve the state. I sometimes

   think that we need something like that. Of course,

   it was extremely traumatic for the Roman Republic  

   a couple of times, with laws and courts and Senate

   suspended, but the state survived and prospered in

   the long run.

   

   It seems we are so tied up in red tape and bogged  

   down in litigation and beaten down by government  

   agents who carry badges and guns but do not wear  

   uniforms and screamed down by liberals who never  

   held a private sector job that I see no solution.

   

   Do you?

[lohman446]

Bud while you are right that demonstrations occurred you are wrong that none were sympathetic.  Arafat himself gave blood to help the victims IIRC.  Granted it was largely symbolic and likely staged for political reasons.

   

   I don't fly commercial airlines when at all possible.  I see government search as a requirement to board a private companies jet as illegal search anyways and refuse to submit to it.  

   

   How long until we are at a position where as a requirement of our landlord / mortgage holder that a government agency be allowed to search the premises?  How much different is the TSA really?

[dwalk]

"So what is the solution?"

   

   Stop Muslim immigration is a good start.

   

   To do that, we would first have to regain control of our borders. And to do that, we would have to toss suicidal 'political correctness'.  

   

   We need to throw leftist,anti-American, Christophobic activist judges off of our court benches, fire lefty, hate-America professors at our public universities, stop paying our money to see anti-American leftist Hollywood perverted trash movies, and of course, stop voting for leftist, anti-American politicians.

   

   Don't vote for mayors and other city politicos who flout national immigration laws, setting up 'sanctuary cities' where illegal immigrants are welcomed and pro-American law enforcement is stymied.

   

   Don't put bleeding-heart liberals on our parole boards. Kindness to violent criminals is cruelty to good people.

   

   Don't worship where the spiritual advisor is a lefty (think Obama's "*** America" preacher), or a Muslim (how many mosques are really pro-America? Seriously).

   

   We didn't let Nazis recruit in our prisons, so why let Muslims? This isn't about freedom of religion because Islam is just as much an evil  political ideology as a religion. Don't think it's evil? Study history. Take note of the Armenian Genocide, and countless other bloody massacres, and slave trade, and rape, and pedophilia, etc  done by warmongering Islam in its 14 centuries of existence.

   

   Bobt mentioned we also have problems with leftists, from Red China to leftist Latinos (don't forget leftist blacks, 90% of the black vote went to Obama). Yes, we need to deal with both the treasonous left AND Islam. So another first step we should take is....

   

   ...pray for Divine assistance. And try to live righteously, so God will be more likely to listen.

[lohman446]

So enforce our standing laws rather than making new ones?  To demand our judges, senators, congressmen, and president understand the enumerated powers of the federal government and the base concept of seperation of powers in the Constitution?  That I can agree with.  

   

   Considering Islam to be a "left leaning" religion is amusing though, I assume that is not what you meant.  Banning someone solely on religion is an issue.  That being said I think our immigration system does need to be more careful and judge someone by their actions and words.  I do think allowing those who have been an active participant in hate speech against America entrance is a major mistake, and one we make.  I agree our immigration system needs some (make that A LOT of) reforms.  

   

   PS:  Can I judge all Christians by historic acts?  The Crusades, the inquisition, the list goes on and on.  Religions have, historically, been abused by man.  In fairness I think this could be applied to most (all?) organized religions.

[dwalk]

Islam is  not left-leaning.

   

    Islam is a religion AND a vile political system, based on violence towards non-Muslims. Our left sucks up to Islam, however, apparently on the principle that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' (both Islam, and our treasonous left, hate America and Christianity).

   

   But  Muslim dictators have opportunistically made alliances of convenience with non-Muslim leftists; notice all the Arab governments siding with the USSR and Red China during the Cold War, and notice how Muslims sided with Hitler, a notorious leftist (Nazi means 'National Socialist', something our left has long tried to deny).  

   

   Some Americans think we can't ban Muslim immigrants or take other self-defensive actions against Islamic aggression, because 'Islam is a religion, and our Constitution therefore protects every thing they may do'. But many of us, and I believe that would include the Founding Fathers, believe that destroying the country from within is NOT a Constitutional right.

   

   Our Constitution is not a suicide pact.

   

   Christianity is not a museum of saints, it's more like a hospital for sinners. Solzhenitsyn noted that "the line between good and evil passes through every human heart". The Bible says "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God". So, yes, Christians have sometimes done bad things.  

   

   The Crusades were intended to be self-defense against imperialistic Islam. They got off the track too often, attacking Jews and Eastern Orthodox Christians, and they squabbled too much among themselves, and too often allied with Muslims. Nonetheless, they did hold off the Saracens, they stopped jihad for some crucial centuries, until European culture accelerated way ahead of Islam. That leads to another historical act of Christianity:

   

   Christianity gave us the American Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and our freedom and prosperity. It's no accident that this type of cultural leadership didn't come from a Muslim country. And Christianity ended slavery, whereas Islam still practices it some places, and has never abrogated it.

   

   I'm glad we agree on good government and immigration reform (not amnesty).

[lohman446]

The crusades are historically murky.  I would point out they solidified the power of the Church when it looked questionable and were effective at preventing a lot of war in Europe by moving the fighting forces out of.  We will agree to disagree on the exact reasoning behind it.  

   

   You refer to Islam as a social and political system and then refer to political systems that were created through Christianity.  

   

   Obviously at this time that political system is operated seperately from the religious system.  

   

   Honest question:  do you not beleive it is possible to practice Islam as a religion seperately from a political system?  I would point out that Iran technically has a seperate political system though that is only a technicality due to the power of the church.

[westerly1965]

(both Islam, and our treasonous left hate America and Christianity)

   

   OK I get it your very right wing.  That's fine but lets be careful what we say too.  "Treasonous Left" I do not believe that the entire left wing is treasonous.  That is simply not a true statement that would be the same as calling the Bush admin Traitors for the Patriot Act (have you read it??)  I will agree that Islam as a whole hates America and wants badly to destroy it.  

   

   "Nazi means 'National Socialist'" This is true.

   

   "Something our left has tried to deny."  Sorry but I won't give you a whooahh or a true vote on this one.  I know alot of liberals and ALOT of conservatives while I will agree that some people are uneducated to what the word "Nazi" truly means I have never heard ANY of them try to deny its true meaning once told.  I didn't like em either I'm just saying.  

   

   "Our Constitution is not a suicide pact." 100% prime time true!  It is not and any organization that is trying to destroy us from within is not welcome here IMHO.

   

   I'm not trying to start an argument I'm just playing devils advocate.  Remember that Granddaddy Bush was pumping money into the Nazi Regime for years right up until our government demanded all companies and banks to open their books so we could see where they were getting the money.  

   

   Lets not stereotype to much I know you guys don't like the left but be fair.  Alot of us don't like the left or the right so we get chastised no matter what we say.  The reality of it is that some of them are traitors your right!  Pelosi and Reid top my list.  But their are some on the right who are traitors as well they do it in a different way but they still do it.

   

   Never forget that it is no longer Right vs Left it is quite simply us against them!  It doesn't matter who sits in office the end result is going to be the same eventually whether its a Rep or a Dem.  The people need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and take a stand against them before it is to late...the question is will they?  And if they do will the side you pick be chosen by your political allegiance?  When the time comes lets all hope not because if it is this country will surely fail...............

[Uncle_Lee]

"Never forget that it is no longer Right vs Left it is quite simply us against them! It doesn't matter who sits in office the end result is going to be the same eventually whether its a Rep or a Dem. The people need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and take a stand against them before it is to late...the question is will they? And if they do will the side you pick be chosen by your political allegiance? When the time comes lets all hope not because if it is this country will surely fail..............."

   

   This, in a nutshell, is where we stand. I agree.

   

   

   I haven't had time to see what the "new" people in Washington will do but if they don't prove to be "right" then all we have there is those on the left and those on the far left. Just because they say they are on the right don't make it so. Their actions speak for where they are.

   

   Just my opinion.........

[lohman446]

Oh, our government has gotten out of hand, I think that I have made that point in past discussions.  *IF* the federal government stuck to what it is supposed to stick to and actually guaranteed the citizens the rights guaranteed than religion would be no threat because even if any specific group controlled the federal government (at the level that they are supposed to be limited to) they would not be able to abuse others.

[bud]

http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=8982">http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=8982

[grayelky]

Regarding Heyjoe post re: Freedom of Religion

   -

   There is no way I would stand on the opposite street corner and watch as some a$$ hole "..dis-associated him self from the flag of America and all it stands for" and let him get away with desecrating it the way he did. Once he "dis-associated" himself from it, as far as I am concerned, he lost it's protection of freedom of speech. I would likely end up arrested for disturbing their right to protest. If they are not citizens, where is their right to protest? If they are citizens, why is their loyalty not to this Country?

   

   Ricart quote:

   ... i got to stay off this thread, gets me on a soap box and wanting to kick some ass, which I am too old to do. Me too. I suspect if you and I had "an adult beverage (maybe 2)" we just might be young enough between the 2 of us to still make some of those flag a$$holes be sorry they thought that was a good idea.

[heyjoe]

that occurance was in NYC just to add salt to the wound. i can guarantee you they were surrounded by many police officers. If they had not been they would have been handed their heads