Carrying with one in the chamber question

[rigger7]

Are the Guardian .380's good to go with one in chamber in a pocket holster?

[grayelky]

A lawyer would tell you to read the owner's manual and follow their directions. Good thing I am no lawyer.

   

   You will get answers on both sides of this issue.

   

   For me, I would carry one in the chamber (I don't currently have a Guardian Ooops! Since posting this, I just won a .32 ACP Guardian on gunbroker!!). I would suggest you follow the makers advice.

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   How's that for a cop-out?  

[kiawah]

Mine is

[41magmag41]

I have a .32 guardian and always carry one in the chamber.  Nothing wrong with carring a double action only semi auto in this condition.  Just like carring a double action revolver with all chambers loaded.

[guadman]

+1 on what 41mag said.

[grayelky]

Sorry, but there is a slight difference. In a double action revolver, almost all of them have a bar of some form that rises up to let the hammer reach the firing pin or drops down out of the way so it can reach the firing pin, when the trigger is back all the way. A modern Ruger single action is the easiest to see this on, a Taurus double action is also fairly easy. (On S&W revolvers, you will need to remove the side plate to see their safety bar. I believe it drops down as the trigger is pulled, but I am not sure. It has been a while since I took one apart.) With either, make sure the gun is empty. Then, check to make sure the gun is empty!:

   

   A) With the gun empty!, point it in a safe direction and pull the trigger - DO NOT LET GO OF THE TRIGGER. HOLD IT BACK.  

   B) Now, look between the recoil shield and the cylinder. You will see the firing pin protruding.

   C) Watch the firing pin as you release the trigger. The firing pin retreats back behind the recoil shield.

   D) Cock the hammer back to single action mode, and look down into the area between the hammer and the frame of the revolver. Examine the hammer. You will notice at the very top, there is a little bit of metal longer than any other portion of the hammer, and there are some relief cuts in the hammer, down it's shank.

   E) This bar I mentioned is visible

   F) Hold the hammer with your thumb, and pull the trigger, watching the bar. The bar will stay up, as long as you hold the trigger back. If you let the hammer all the way down, now look at the recoil shield and once again, you will see the firing pin protruding. If you released the trigger, it is not.

   G) This time as you cock the hammer back to single action mode, leave your thumb on the hammer spur. Pull the trigger, and when the hammer is about half way through it's arc, let go of the TRIGGER and still HOLD THE HAMMER. The transfer bar has dropped down. S  L  O  W  L  Y lower the hammer, watching the transfer bar. As the hammer gets closer to the frame, the transfer bar will drop below the area of the firing pin and the top of the hammer will contact the frame before it can touch the firing pin. If you let the hammer all the way down, you WILL NOT see the firing pin through the recoil shield. With either of these, it is impossible for the hammer to strike the firing pin unless the transfer bar is UP. The only way for that to happen, is for the trigger to be pulled.

   

   There are a couple of ways different manufactures accomplish this on semi-autos. I do not know which method NAA uses, but I have enough confidence in them, and their attorneys, to feel safe carrying my recently acquired Guardian with the mag full and one in the chamber.

[rjtravel]

The transfer bar was not on the early Ruger SA revolvers.  I know.  Back in the 60s we had a hunting friend in North Idaho who dropped his SA .357 while exiting his truck.  It discharged and shattered his leg.  He sued and won a large settlement.  As a result thereafter Ruger installed the transfer bar.  I returned my Bearcat and they installed and returned all the parts - since then I think they learned not to return the parts for restoration to original unsafe condition.  I have had a transfer bar fail (on an H&R) and render the firearm useless until repaired, and I much perfer one of the other systems than a fallible transfer bar.

   Richard

[grayelky]

Rjtravel-

   You are correct regarding the Rugers. I should have specified only the New Model will have the transfer bar. To the best of my knowledge, if an old model Ruger is sent in with a problem of any kind, it is returned with the transfer bar upgrade and the parts are returned in a sealed plastic bag.

   

   For those who do not know to what we refer:

   The original Ruger single action revolvers did not have the transfer bar safety. It was pretty well known it was unsafe to carry 6 rounds loaded, as this basic design had been around since the late 1800's. As Rjtravel pointed out, if a loaded gun was dropped, with a round under the hammer, it could go off. Due to someone not knowing this, a lawsuit was filed and Bill Ruger re-designed his revolvers to incorporate the transfer bar system. I have never heard of a Ruger transfer bar failing. To this day, if you have an Old Model Ruger, if you contact the company they will send you a prepaid shipping package. (I must also point out this is strictly voluntary on the part of Sturm, Ruger.) Once the gun is in their possession, they will update it to the transfer bar system at no charge to you. I have read where other repairs have been made at no charge while they had the revolver in their possession. Die hard single action folks like me much prefer the Old Model, as it just has a better feel. In the spirit of fairness, I must point out the transfer bar system is much safer for carrying your weapon.

   

   If you do not know the difference, the Old Model has 3 screws on the right side of the frame, thus the nick name of a 3 screw model. The New Model has 2 pins.

[westerly1965]

I have a .380 and do sometimes carry one in the chamber.  I prefer with any of my semi autos really to not have one in the pipe unless I am hunting or something where I think I will need it.  But the Guardian has been a good gun so far and seems to be safe to carry with one in the pipe as long as you have it in a holster that covers the trigger of course...

[lohman446]

I think...

   

   That people are fooling themselves if they think it makes that much of a difference in drawing a gun from the pocket if there is one in the pipe or not.  Racking the slide (with practice) takes relatively VERY little time compared to drawing the gun, presenting it, and hitting your target.  Granted there is an issue with needing two hands but I think the ability to draw and fire when engaged in contact combat is overstated by those who make this a big issue.

[unclenunzie]

Guardian:  

   Uses an inertia driven firing pin, like a 1911.  Pressing the firing pin head flush with the frame will not allow the pin to protrude through the breech face.  Only a sharp blow with sufficient energy will drive the pin enough to overcome the firing pin return spring and allow the pin to smack a primer to detonate it.  

   

   At rest, the hammer depresses the firing pin flush against the frame.  In theory, a very sharp blow directly on the at-rest hammer might deliver enough energy to drive the pin, but it would have to be a really sharp blow.  With the Guardian field stripped I have intentionally let the hammer fall on my finger and it freaking hurts! Just to get a sense of how much energy the hammer delivers.  

   

   NAA has on the website results of drop-testing which show no fires when dropped from numerous angles.  This and the basic design leaves me comfortable with a round in the chamber.

   

   Ruger Revolvers:  

   All modern production revolvers are safe to carry fully loaded.  Ruger's hammer has a top step which protrudes more than the firing pin head's length at the frame.  With the transfer bar down and out of the way, the hammer face cannot reach the firing pin, harmlessly delivering it's energy to the back of the frame above the FP.  When the trigger is pulled all the way, the transfer bar (hardened steel) rises directly between the FP head and the hammer surface.  The hammer strikes the bar and the bar strikes the FP head.

   

   A very common system and very safe.

   

   All my personal opinion, not a lawyer, not nothing or nobody.  Guns can be dangerous, so be very careful, follow the safety rules and enjoy LOL

[grayelky]

Lohman446-

   Action is faster than reaction. That is why a practiced person can draw and fire before a bad guy who is pointing a gun at them can fire. The key is practice and being smooth. The longer it takes to fire, the better the chances the bad guy has. As you point out, this is a matter of some debate.

   

   There is no debate over which method is actually safer to carry. I will remain on the side of carrying fully loaded. I respect your differentiating opinion, and your right to attempt to persuade others to your line of thinking. I must point out if a slight bobble occurs while attempting to rack the slide, the bad guy gains a huge advantage. There is nothing like looking at the wrong side of a gun or knife blade to cause your hands to shake and sweat.

[lohman446]

Oh, I agree that there are a lot of things that can go wrong when drawing and racking the slide, there are a lot of things that can go wrong either way, adding a dexterious movement adds that much more issue. Practice is a key of course, and you bring up an interesting point.  I will take the person who can remain calm (reasonably) looking at the gun or knife with moderate training and a small gun in a semi-ready position over the guy with lots of training who cannot overcome the panic of the gun or knife.  The thing is, that situation is hard to practice and test for

[coinchop]

What I think counts.

   Calm (hard to do)

   Speed (one in the pipe)

   Surprise (think fast)

   Accurate (practice)

   This is what I think, but in the real world

   who knows...

[lohman446]

In no particular order though Coin.  If I had to take your list I would agree (there are additions of course) that those are great elements.  But in order of importance I would rank speed last.  Somewhere in there is luck / karma / God does not think its your time whatever you chose to call it.

[redhawk4]

It's far too easy to have a problem racking the slide on a small auto like the Guardian. With the strong slide spring and the small grip I'll own up to the fact that I've had a "misfeed" on occasion when reloading after cleaning, when I wasn't concentrating. With no slide lock once you screw this up, you need a serious time out to clear the problem.

   

   IMO, planning at outset to attempt this under attack conditions is pure folly. I always carry my Guardian 380 with a round chambered and I'm happy that the heavy trigger pull and flush hammer design are more than adequate safety features. If you are not comfortable with this, then I recommend buying another gun that better suits your personal situation i.e. that you will carry in a state where it can immediately be brought to action if you can get your hand on it and pull the trigger.  

   

   I personally am not completely comfortable with carrying my 1911 cocked and locked on a regular basis. So most of the time I carry something else rather than carry my 1911 in a state of "non-readiness". It's much easier to get a round chambered in my 1911 and much less likely for there to be a problem than with my Guardian, but in a pinch I'd much rather be drawing any of a number of other handguns I own where I don't need to worry about anything else other than "aiming" and firing.  

   

   Why use any gun in a manner other than what it was designed for? Why have a hand tied behind your back when you don't need to? Has anyone ever heard of a Guardian carried with a round chambered mis-behaving?

[lohman446]

Redhawk, interesting question.  On guns with exposed hammers where you are directly striking the hammer I understand where the concern for a misfire is.  Without trying to cause it has anyone heard of that problem on any "double action" semi-auto where the hammer / striker / pin / whatever is not held in a tensioned position.

   

   I understand the idea of carrying a semi-auto on a loaded chamber, and have done it in the past.  That being said I think you are probably right about the chances of issues with a gun as small as the Guardian.

[redhawk4]

My understanding is as Unclenunzie stated earler. The hammer when in rest is such than the firing pin is not able to strike the primer because it is not long enough to reach. When you fire the hammer hits the firing pin so hard that it is travelling fast enough to continue forward with sufficient momentum and force to indent the primer after the hammer its self has hit the frame/slide of the gun. For the gun to fire in any other way you have to create the same kind of momentum in the firing pin by some other means.

   

   For example, you would need to drop a Guardian from a height great enough so that when it hit the ground the firing pin would travel on, at a speed similar to that the hammer creates. This also requires the gun to land at an angle that can create a force in the correct direction.

   

   It doesn't matter how hard you hit the hammer, that is against the frame - you have to somehow put enough momentum into that firing pin in a forward direction. Hitting the back of the gun would make the firing pin want to go backwards as the gun moves forward and the firing pin is "left behind" - When a car accelerates you are thrown back in your seat because you have to be accelerated at the same rate as the vehicle. When the vehicle brakes, you are thrown forward - the direction the firing pin needs to go.

   

   On 1911's, some have gone to a hammer block design while others like the Springfields use a light titanium firing pin, thereby making it close to impossible for it to gain the necessary energy to ignite the primer.

   

   I haven't done the calculations, but my theory is that the impact required to make the firing pin strike the primer and ignite, while in your pocket, would be many many times greater than any human body could survive, so a pistol going off in your pocket would be the least of your worries. Imagine a giant hammer hitting you with enough force to throw you forward like a firing pin and you get the picture.

[lohman446]

I kind of think you are right.  Without the tension (on a striker fired like a glock) or the hammer coming forward with the tension from the hammer spring I think you would have a very hard time convincing most (I'm sure someone has a counter example) guns to fire.

[coinchop]

Lohman>>

   I try to work with God on my good days so if I need him on a bad day, He won't be mad at me.

   Sometimes I need all the help I can get.

   

   Also, luck can be influcenced...

   by paying attention to your surroundings at

   all times. Also being fast on the draw and a  

   good shot ain't all luck...

[lohman446]

Oh, theres a lot of factors no doubt on that one.

[rjtravel]

One should make his/her choices based upon what works best for him, however there is one element that is crucial and fundamental and has not been mentioned.  Don't carry 'hot' one day and unchambered the next day, etc.  Always carry in same condition in exactly the same carry mode.  Always.  There is no escaping the fact that you will respond as you have trained.  This is why a fighter spars, runs, and trains with his hands protecting the angle of his jaw and elbows his ribs - when he gets tagged (and he will get tagged) his training will kick in and protect him.  This is why I still have my original teeth 50 years after lacing on the gloves.  He will have a very short career if he ignores that.  Same with SD training.

   Richard

[lohman446]

RJ brings up a point.  There are often cited examples of off duty officers / agents carrying with an empty chamber and having issues when training kicked in that was based on a loaded chamber.

[41magmag41]

much to do about nothing.  I'm 57 years old and retired from police work and have carried guns all my adult life.  There is no reason not to carry a round in a double action revolver or semi auto that is also double action.  In fact I have no problem with carring a single action semi auto cocked and locked.  It's a *** tool and only works when a human interacts with it.  I think you guys just like to hear yourself talk.  Just my opinion

[rjtravel]

41,

   I have owned, hunted with, &/or carried firearms of all types for more years than you are old, and yet I am not above learning.  Perhaps you have absorbed all that of which you are capable, but carrying all SA autos cocked & locked is lunacy.  They are more than mere tools at your direction...they are subject to failure and demand care and respect, hence the OPs legitimate question.  If you cannot select out the valuable from the ill-informed in the above posts then it may be best to omit this thread entirely.  It isn't required reading.

   Richard

[grayelky]

quote:

   

   Rjtravel-

   ...carrying all SA autos cocked & locked is lunacy. They are more than mere tools at your direction...they are subject to failure and demand care and respect...

   41-

   Easy now, not everyone on here is as old and cantankerous as you and I. Most don't have the experience we do. You see, I was a LEO- street cop/detective to you and me- for a touch over 28 years. I agree with your outlook as posted above. We just have to have a little more patience with the Rookies....

   

   Rj-

   Since I am only 2 years older than Mr. 41mag, you likely got me too. BUT, I am gonna hafta take up for him. A gun is only a piece of machinery, much like a toaster. It is just metal and plastic, and it does our bidding. You stick a knife in one to loosen up a stuck piece of toast, and you get curly hair. We been around along enough to know not to do that. A 6 year old may need a little training though. That is all a gun is. At some point that toaster may need a new cord, so you do maintenance on it. Same with a gun. I dare say if you load a 1911, even a cheap one, lay it on the counter and walk away, it ain't gonna go off unless someone fools around with it. Carrying a 1911 the way Col Cooper claims it should be, which is the way the Honorable JM Browning designed it to be, is safe. You see, I too still carry a 1911 cocked and locked 5 or 6 days a week. I also agree, the OP has a valid question he does not seem to know the answer to, and needs a good, solid answer. The trouble is, most of us seem to end up mixing our opinion in with solid facts. He is just gonna hafta figure out which is which.

[rjtravel]

You still have curly hair?  In respect to metal I will disagree and stand fast.  Metal can eventually fatigue - including a sear under tension no matter how mild.  I too have seen a bit - defended myself and twice been in war zones, including 'Nam.  I once worked with with fire suppression systems, and under approx 50# tension it will 'cold-flow' and eventually fail.  Second law of thermodynamics.  This is why they must be periodocally maintained.  Failure may never happen to a LEO, but in my estimation Someone is watching out for you.  I know a guy who would carry his Baby Browing with pin tensioned and safety engaged.  Ever seen a B/B internals?  A paper-thin sear engagement is all that separates him from eternity.  Not wise.  It is lunacy.

   Richard

[grayelky]

Naw, no curly hair. That would only come from sticking a knife in a live toaster. (Off the record- What hair I got that ain't turned loose is turning grayer.) I do agree on the maintenance part. Gotta be done or problems crop up. I also agree that metal can eventually fail. Chances of it it just quiting under normal use is very low. As to the Baby's insides, I never had occasion to take one apart. Besides, I thought we was talking about JMB's almost perfect creation. As far as a LEO failing, just ask anybody who has gotten ticket. They will tell you in a heart beat the officer failed to use proper judgment. He should have given them a warning, 'cause they did not mean to go too fast. He should have been out catching bank robbers and rapists and such instead of harassing innocent, tax paying citizens. Now that Second law you mention: I have studied the Penal code of GA pretty good, but I don't know nothing about that Law. Since you seem to, once again I will bow to your greater knowledge. Now that "cold-flow" stuff is a little different. I don't know of any springs in a firearm that will create 50 lb of tension, so I may have to ask you to spill a little more of your knowledge and help me understand how that will apply, since that much tension is unlikely to occur in a firearm. And, since you mentioned it, if Someone had not been watching out for me over the years, I would not be sitting in front of this contraption drawing a check every month. Of course I remember to thank Him from time to time, just so He knows I still know Who is in charge.

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   Does it show I sometimes enjoy writing? As many boring reports as I had to write over the years, I would on occasion take the time to try and make them at least a little interesting. I hope my comments do not come across as smart-allicky, as they certainly are not meant to be so.

[rjtravel]

I know of springs in striker-fired autos that will create a whole lot more than 50 lbs of pressure - more like 200 fpe created which will blow a hole through your leg.  No Baby or my Bauer will ever reside in my pocket with round chambered and striker poised - period.  Some get away with it, but why tempt fate?  Regarding cold-flow...it indeed does happen without any human intervention whatsoever.  Ask the next HVAC guy you see - most of 'em love to exhibit their vast store of knowledge and you may get an eye-opening education.  Can't hurt.

   Richard

[bill_deshivs]

Why don't car springs fail? There is a lot more than 50# tension on them?

   Millions of Baby Brownings were carried chambered. You would think we would have heard about them going off by now! F/N knew what they were doing, and the gun is safe.

[lohman446]

Bill I would assume its a matter of scale.  And car springs do fail though I understand your point.  You have to remember some of these baby Brownings are 50 years old or so are they not?  Thats a lot of stress for a lot of time on a pretty small part.

[bill_deshivs]

Stress doesn't make metal fail, within the manufacturing parameters. The Baby Browning was introduced in 1936, I believe-as an update to the earlier design. The sear won't "cold-flow."

[lohman446]

Don't stressed parts usually have a lifespan?  Is trusting your life to  a spring that may have been held under pressure for 50 years worth it?  Even if it wasn't under pressure for that matter...  

   

   Understand at this point we are discussing semi-autos that are striker fired with the striker held in the "ready" position in normal carry mode.  DAO style semis, or DA/SA have virtually no tension held on the hammer at rest correct?

[rjtravel]

Lohman,

   No use trying to reason.  'Bill' thinks car springs never fail, Baby/Bs have never had an AD; and a sear & attending mechanism are not subject to cold-creep.  Wow!  One need look no further than our '98 Tacoma in my driveway for the springs question, and Browning's own instruction manual and the many easy-to-find incidents for the B/B.  This guy must live in a cave.  In respect to cold-creep he should share his superior knowledge with all 49 state Fire Marshals, the 50 DOIs, the Natl Fire Prot Assn, and the board of the IMC.  He could advise them to abort inpections and omit link and cable changeouts in all suppression systems, standpipes, and sprinklers.  In one fell swoop he could singlehandly eliminate that entire business, cause biz failures, massive bodily injuries, rampant unemployment, and collapse of our economy.  Way to go.  I would not be surprised if his address could be traced to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave,  Wash, DC.

   Richard

[bill_deshivs]

Fire suppression system fusible links are not made of steel. They are made of low melting point metals. I do know a little about fire supression systems (38 years in building maintenance.)

   Ever overloaded that Tacoma? I do know a little bit about springs- I make quite a few, and work on springed mechanisms for a living.) Did the valve springs wear out, too?

   No firearms instruction manual since the 1950s has recommended loaded chamber carry (lawyers, you know.) Baby Brownings are certainly not known for spontaneous firings. I'm a pretty qualified gunsmith.

   I can back up my statements, they aren't supposition. Some of you guys throw BS around and expect people to believe it. That's just not my style.

   I take major offense to the Pennsylvania Ave. reference.