Is the Black Widow the best .22 hideout revolver ever made?

[TwoGunJayne]

I've heard a lot of arguments and read a lot of discussion about minis.

Yes. I'm talking about North American Arms. I'm talking about the .22 long rifle and the .22 magnum mini revolvers. They're referred to as "minis."

They have a model with a 2 inch barrel called the Black Widow. It's available with a .22 long rifle only cylinder, a .22 magnum cylinder, or you can get it with both cylinders to swap them out an use each type of ammunition.



Just for fun and games, you can use the .22 long rifle cylinder to fire .22 long and .22 short ammunition, but not .22 magnum. .22 mag has a thicker case and uses a tapered chamber, unlike the typically straight-bored .22 long rifle.

Any way you slice it, the .22 rimfire cartridge classes always show up in the top 5 when it comes to defensive shootings. Talk all the trash you like about these diminuitive cartridges, they always show up in the top 5.

So, with .22 magnum (of ANY flavor) out of the 2 inch barrel of the Black Widow, is this one of the ultimate hideout and backup guns ever made? If not, please post what you think is better. We're not going to argue the fact that .22 rimfire always shows up in the top 5 cartridges used defensively.

Some of the hard core ballistic sites seem to think that you get your best "bang for the buck" with .22 rim fire out of a 6 inch to 10 inch barrel, depending on the exact load. Yes, longer barrels can offer more performance... but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about something that you can always carry and always have, regardless of what you're wearing.

A North American Arms Black Widow fits into every single pocket of every single article of clothing that I own, except the "fifth pocket" of blue jeans. It can be chambered for the surprisingly effective .22 magnum cartridge that can offer terminal self-defense results with proper shot placement. This is not up for debate. I've read about too many gelatin tests, penetration tests, and real-life shooting accounts to think that .22 magnum OF ANY TYPE from a 2 inch barrel is useless for an "always carried and mostly invisible" self defense item.

If you have a different opinion, please voice it. Let's talk about it. This is the Black Widow thread and "always on" defensive pistols. the "Start new topic" button is over there. --->

[.54Cal_Kidd]

I lubs my Black Widder! It's my favoritest gun in the whole world!
Accurate, easy to shoot and small enough to carry just about anywhere.
I wanted one as soon as I saw one.
And say what you want about the .22 LR, I wont stand in front of one.

[heyjoe]

i personally think that the 1 1/8 mini magnum is the best  .22 hideout revolver, followed by the NAA 22 short and then 22lr. they are smaller than the black widow and conceal in places even the black widow cant

[millsriver]

I am a strong believer in shot placement. It does not matter if you have a .454 Casull if you can't hit your target under stress. Any firearm is better than nothing. I have a Black Widow with both cylinders and absolutely love it.

[OV-1D]

  Some loads do actually pick people up when hit with larger bores which is convenient in shot placement .

[Dinadan]

Is the Black Widow the best .22 hideout revolver ever made?

In order to answer that question we would have to define best and hideout. For some folks best  pretty much means biggest caliber: for others it means smallest. I do think that it is very close to what I personally would call the "best hideout revolver," so I guess I am with the  smallest folks. It is small enough to conceal anytime a person is dressed properly (subjective, I know) and the two inch barrel is long enough to take some advantage of the 22 magnum cartridge's power. I do not often carry my own Black Widow, formerly I carried my Pug as my main Mini, now it is the Sidewinder. I would rate those three as almost equal, with the Pug ranking last because it's one inch barrel is too short to get much much advantage out of the magnum as opposed to the LR cartridge. So why did I carry my Pug instead of my BW?  Irrational affection, I guess. I have done a lot of things because of irrational affection.

However, for the BW to compete with the Pug or Sidewinder as the best hideout revolver I do think that the factory grips need to be replaced with smaller grips. The factory grips are just too big in my opinion. Yes, I am more accurate with them than with regular birdshead grips, but no way am I going to use the BW for concealed carry with those big grips.

[SteveZ-FL]

i personally think that the 1 1/8 mini magnum is the best  .22 hideout revolver, followed by the NAA 22 short and then 22lr. they are smaller than the black widow and conceal in places even the black widow cant

Have a few pistols/revolvers and they all have their good points, but my .22WMR 1 1/8th NAA mini gets out of the house more an all the others combined.

[Kentucky Kevin]

She looks Pretty Deadly, like her namesake. My carry choices are the 1 5/8 mag and mini, both holding 22lr, for previously stated reasons. Both hanging from floppy wobblers, for speed and accesability, and controllability.

[TwoGunJayne]

From shooting various minis, the LR-only frame 1 5/8, the NAA Short, and even their longer offerings, I note a massive increase in aiming and repeatability with a longer barrel and better grips. For me, at least, the Black Widow seems to occupy a "sweet spot" of concealment and performance. Performance? Yes. Weird, huh? Read on, true believers...

The "oversize" grips as used on the Black Widow do comprimise concealment somewhat. Given that these defensive items might be likely used in less than 7 feet, part of me admits that I could sacrifice the extra yardage to get an easier carry.

I suppose there are two schools of thought on this:
1. Make it as small as you can so you always have it. (small grips, 1" barrel, low profile quick sights)
2. Do what you can to maximize a small package. (best grips, 2"-4" barrel, high profile adjustable snaggy sights)

I've read many posts elsewhere of people saying that no handgun can be effective as all of the power has been comprimised and traded away. The other side of that coin is you're not going to have a .308 rifle slung from your shoulder 24 hours a day, so some comprimise is required.

.22 magnum with the proper ammo for a short barrel seems to offer performance out of proportion to what you see with the numbers, given proper shot placement. I've heard of someone shooting a .32 mousegun at 4x4 wood blocks at range, with the projectiles sticking out of the wood after impact. I've never seen such with .22 magnum versus wood, even though the .32 must have slightly more muzzle energy. Smaller calibers can penetrate better, but different bullets can give completely different performance given different penetration media.

.22 mag 2" through wet newspaper http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-123515.html
.22 mag 2" through gel http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/78358-perma-gel-test-results.html#post951734

Note these two tests show more penetration through gel than wet newspaper. It would have been easy to assume it's the other way around. Also note that the gel test showed better penetration on denim covered gel than bare gelatin on the CCI TNT hollowpoint round. This is due to "plugging" of the hollowpoint by cloth fibers.

In the above linked gel test, the CCI Maxi-mag +V did not expand and yielded 17+ inches of penetration in both cloth-covered and bare gel. This means a Black Widow loaded with CCI Maxi-mag +V exceeds FBI minimum penetration standards for cloth covered and bare gel. Most people would have never guessed this.

Even the .22 long rifle CCI "Stinger" 32 grain jhp offers 13+ inches of gel penetration from a Black Widow. A Black widow loaded with hyper velocity Stingers makes the FBI minimum penetration? Wow. Most people would have never guessed that.

[heyjoe]

something else must have been going on with that .32 if it stuck out of the wood. ive seen 32 S&W and im talking the shorter round, not 32 long, go through two 2x4's. the 32 s&w and 32 long are downloaded by american manufacturers to account for the older breaktops out there. european manufactured 32  S&w and 32 long are hotter. properly loaded a 32 long and even 32 s&w will easily get 13" of penetration

[Kentucky Kevin]

TGJ, I'm convinced, send it and I'll tote it, I'll even send you a 1 1/8 w/floppy in exchange

[swolf]

Got my CC permit a couple years ago.  I wanted a Bond,but decided to see what else was out there.  I spent a couple weeks viewing reviews, prices, ballistics, etc.  BW came out way on top.  I didn't even know (or care) what "NAA" was--I wanted a GREAT CC gun.  I am not married to NAA, so if someone comes out with something better, I will switch.  And I keep watching.  BUT, nothing has yet to come close to BW price, performance, and "coolness factor."  I don't worry about running into Bad Guys, they are a certainty in my my world of Corrections.  I see a lowlife creep and good chance we have a personal connection that might make him/her want to hurt me.  My 'Widow is on me and ready to dance.  Ballistics and stats prove that showing it will end 90% of any confrontations I will be involved in.  Similar stats say that one shot covers another a few more percentage points.  .22 Mag performance results say any hit anywhere pretty much covers any remaining doubt.  I'm willing to admit that a big factor for me is confidence, and if a 9oz piece of stainless steel in a pocket lets me go to a party in a strange part of town and think only about fun, then it is a best value.  The .22 conversion option lets me practice and play cheaply, and is a major bonus (Bond can't give me that as cheaply.)  My second choice would be a Pug (the stubby stepchild of the 'Widow.)  Don't own one yet, but a bit reduntant with the BW.  Next in line is my Shorty, for all the above reasons, without the Mag ballistics.  But higher coolness points, and it wears nicely on a neck holster.

[bleak_window]

The BW hits all kinds of sweet spots - price, size, power, accuracy, etc.  Nothing really comes close.  None of the smaller minis can match it in practical accuracy.  The rubber grips are perfect and take this mini to a new level.  With my fat hand around the grip, the BW points like an extra finger and doesn't jump when fired.

[45flint]

Sidewinder: best NAA hideout gun they make. The precision of its lockup puts it in another class, absolutely no play whatsoever.   You can argue barrel length but doubt you will have that arguement once production catches up.  Grips are immaterial you can put any grip you want on these guns

[trotterlg]

The question was best hideout revolver, not the best carry revolver.  Best for hideout has to go to the NAA short.  Larry

[45flint]

Still have to shoot it!  Fumble fumble

[Dinadan]

The BW hits all kinds of sweet spots - price, size, power, accuracy, etc. SNIP

Exactly right. Any carry gun is going to be a compromise, and the Black Widow is a pretty good compromise.

The rubber grips are perfect and take this mini to a new level.  With my fat hand around the grip, the BW points like an extra finger and doesn't jump when fired.

I get the feeling that I am in the minority in not liking the Black Widow grips. I think they are too big for the gun and just butt ugly. Anyway, I sanded mine down to a smaller and thinner profile. I do like the way the grips keep the trigger finger out from behind the trigger and give support for one more finger.

[therevjay]

I get the feeling that I am in the minority in not liking the Black Widow grips. I think they are too big for the gun and just butt ugly. Anyway, I sanded mine down to a smaller and thinner profile. I do like the way the grips keep the trigger finger out from behind the trigger and give support for one more finger.
[/quote]

You may be in the minority, but your not the only one. I think the best compromise between concealment and control are the "boot grips".

If your going to have grips the size of the stock BW grips you can carry a bigger gun.

[bleak_window]

If your going to have grips the size of the stock BW grips you can carry a bigger gun.

The grip isn't the gun.

[mdzcpa]

I have the Sidewinder, PUG, and Black Widow.

The Sidewinder is the coolest.
The Black Widow is the best shooter.
The PUG is the best hideout revolver.

The BW is more accurate, and easier to shoot, but it is a little too large. For the nearly the same size I can carry my Ruger LCP with 6+1 in semi auto.  Now the BW is far more classy and simply more cool than my LCP...but you get the point. 

The PUG...what can I say. The grip size is perfect, the pistol itself is small and incredibly concealable, and it handles 22 WMR.  Yes the barrel is a bit short and accuracy is affected, but we are talking about a hideout pistol right?

Frankly any of these 3 make a great back up or hideout gun.  I love them all, but the PUG gets the nod for daily deep conceal back up carry,

[Stoneflie]

TGJ - Nice thread, thanks for starting it.
After a lot of research I too decided the BW would be the best "hide out" revolver/gun for me, but I got a little ahead of myself. After all my research I found out it's not on the CA extortion list. I had to go with the .22 mag 11/8" barrel with BW grips. It doesn't have the barrel length I wanted (we all know what that means) but it hides very well even with the BW grips.

[boots]

When I was looking for a hide out gun I decided on the BW because it seemed to be the sweet spot on performance & concealable.  It has done all I wanted and is with me everyday.  One can never have too many guns and I would like to have a short and a sidewinder but for now the BW works for me.

[Dinadan]

Here is my Black Widow between a Ruger .357 SP101 and a NAA Short. A compromise between power and concealability.

[mdzcpa]

Dinadan,

I really like the different grips on your BW.  It looks awesome.

I am torn on the idea of different grips.  On one hand I think the big grip and BW emblem are really cool and definitely part of the character of the BW pistol. On the other big grip really reduces conceal options for me.  I'm torn 

[TwoGunJayne]

You can buy the BW emblem separately from NAA and install it inset on any grip you choose. They seem to be often out of stock (at least when I ask,) so maybe I'm not the only one with this idea.

[bud]

My emblem came off my BW. I called C.S. and they sent me a new one in three days!

[TwoGunJayne]

Mine did that too. Fortunately, I didn't lose it and I just glued it back in with silicone, it hasn't budged since.

[G50AE]

Any way you slice it, the .22 rimfire cartridge classes always show up in the top 5 when it comes to defensive shootings. Talk all the trash you like about these diminuitive cartridges, they always show up in the top 5.

We're not going to argue the fact that .22 rimfire always shows up in the top 5 cartridges used defensively.

Please cite your source for this supposed fact.

[bleak_window]

No need to cite anything...do your own research.  You'll find .22 is actually 2nd or 3rd most often used, both in shootings AND killings.  A large part of that is that it's so common compared to any other cartridge.  Nobody is saying it's the top 5 deadliest in a straight comparison of bullets..but maybe a .22 is more likely to be within reach when the trouble starts, and it does the job in a pinch...sometimes too well. 

[adp3]

I have lost count of the Black Widows that I have bought and sold/traded but it's more than 7.  I try other carry guns from Titanium S&W's to Seecamp's but I keep coming back to the Black Widows.  The first thing I do is ditch the Rubber-Baby-Buggy-Bumper Grips and replace them with standard magnum wood slabs.  Then I'm good to go.  I have a pair of BWs currently and don't have even the slightest urge to replace them.  I prefer the BW's to other NAA's because they have a usable set of sights and enough barrel length to get some horsepower out of the .22 Mag.

Best Regards,
ADP3

[TwoGunJayne]

A few tidbits for the provocation of thought.

The FBI used to have a very informative chart with 2004 information, but they seem to have pulled it from their site and all links to it are no good.

http://paulforattleboro.com/uploads/3/5/1/7/3517260/guic.pdf
Philidelphia, 1985: .22 lr tied for 3rd.
Philadelphia, 1990, .22 lr tied for 3rd.

California, 2009.
http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/publications/Firearms_Report_09.pdf
.22 rimfire (all types) tied for second place with .40 s&w.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/criminals-and-the-guns-they-carry/
41% of weapons seized from criminals are non-functional. Less than 17% were loaded with quality ammunition.
.22 rimfire is #2 most seized.
Criminals don't use NAA. They use garbage made by "Ring of Fire" gun makers (23% of guns siezed in the study.) There is no mention of NAA in the top 11 makes used.
66% of the seized weapons in this study were considered unable to fire more than 3 rounds due to not being fully loaded, being totally broken, or a malfunction!
One tiny nitpick: the author of this article contradicts his data ever so slightly with his analysis. 23% is almost 1 in 4, a VERY LARGE chunk, not like he downplays it. In California, .22 rimfire is tied for second place with only 15% of the pie.

Note that from reading all of this, you do get the impression that lawfully armed citizens tend to select things that function and are effective. I've read things from other sources stating that a handgun is only actually fired in self-defense 28% of the time. The caliber only has a chance to matter 28% of the time in an armed confrontation if this fact is true.

[Kentucky Kevin]

Rule #1 have a gun

[grayelky]

Topic: Is the Black Widow the best .22 hideout revolver ever made?

No. Since this calls for an opinion, I am correct. For me, anyway!   I prefer the 1 5/8 barreled mag. The BW is only 3/8" longer, which is almost a moot point, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. With the standard mag grips, I could carry a BW w/o a problem (I think).

[Kevin55]

Topic: Is the Black Widow the best .22 hideout revolver ever made?

No. Since this calls for an opinion, I am correct. For me, anyway!   I prefer the 1 5/8 barreled mag. The BW is only 3/8" longer, which is almost a moot point, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. With the standard mag grips, I could carry a BW w/o a problem (I think).

The Mag is lighter and smaller, but the Black Widow has nicer sights.  I noticed NAA makes several sights.  See image here  http://naaminis.com/smf/index.php?topic=2706.msg44385#msg44385

I wondered what the mag in 2" or 2.5" would be like compared to the Black Widow.
Sort of a moot point in CA.  We get 1-1/8" barrels in 22lr and 22mag.  Two models.  Maybe the 4" barrel models too.  No BW, Pugs, Sidewinders, etc.

[boots]

The BW is my daily carry and was my 1st choice.  It seems to be the sweet spot in CC and power but my 2nd one will be a Pug for weak side carry. I like all models but can only afford a few and the BW is a good one to start the collection.