Odd message on Midway Box of 22 WMR Ammo

[ashevillian]

I keep plenty of CCI and some Winchester around for my WMR's - however, I wanted something other than the dreaded Win Dynapoint 45G 22 WMR's to shoot to keep the cost down.  

   

   I purchased a brick of http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=391424&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Ammunition%20-%20Rimfire%20-%20Match%20%26%20Target-_-PriceCompListing-_-391424">Armscor 40G SJHP 22 WMR, (Bought them at $7.70 a box this fall) now it didn't matter at the time, but it does matter now since I have a new Mini-Mag - the message stuck on the side of the box with an address sized stick on label was:

   

   Not for use in North American Arms Firearms

   

   Has anyone else seen this and why is this the case with that particular cartridge?

[therevjay]

I have no clue. Maybe "Armscor" has a website? Possibly you could get a answer there.

[ashevillian]

I've been to their website in the past, they are based in the Philippines.  As far as  Asia goes - they are number one in producing 22 Mag ammo, they specialize in producing 22 MRF Rifles  (really it means just Magnum Rim Fire or what folks would call our standard WMR).  So they do produce a good deal of 22 Magnum Rifles and other knockoff goodies.  However, I don't see alot of their firearms being imported.

   

   Honestly, I think it was something put on the box after it got to the US.

   

   No idea what caused Midway to put that warning on the package.  There had to be something significant that caused a distributor that big to do so.

[grayelky]

Perhaps Midway could shed some light...

[ashevillian]

Allright,  I'll just go ahead and call.

[ashevillian]

Ok, so I called Midway;

   

   They asked what the message said, the girl on the phone didn't know.  She asked around, then she got back on and goes, "What did the message on the box say?", I told her again.  She says, "Well, if that's what the message says, I'd just go with that."  

   

   The science guy part of me just really is bugged out by this - there has to be a reason other than, "umm, we don't know why we put that on the box, just do what it says."

   

   That's a pretty specific thing to put on a box of ammo.  I'm going to call back tomorrow and ask for someone else.

[westerly1965]

I have heard of other Mag ammos with that warning on them I think.  Also not supposed to shoot hollow points through the Guardian.  Don't know why though...

[ashevillian]

On a semi-auto loading cartridges from a magazine, that would make sense since some pistols won't feed hollow points well and work better with FMJ's or poly-tips (fancy word for "plastic headed bullets").

   

   However, like you said, wonder why they have that warning for the revolver on some WMR packs.

[xmp]

Naa warns against PMC ammo for a double discharge, they said they heard of an occurrence of this happening with pmc ammo.  

   

   Is midway and pmc somehow connected? Maybe made in the same factory?  Or did midway find out about this occurrence and place the warning on the box as a precaution against lawsuits?  

   

   Just my guess. Companies do this all the time. They hear of another company having a problem and they warn about the same problem.  

   

   I'm sure when pmc was asked about the problem.  

   They blamed the pistol.

[fistmil]

What causes a double discharge in a single action revolver? Is the hammer rebounding and hitting another cartridge or is the recoil forcing a cartridge against the frame?

[xmp]

Heat from the fired round is enough to detonate the round  

   Next to it out if battery.

[xmp]

I've never seen it happen to a pistol.  

   The closest I ever saw was a "cook off" in a rifle.

[bud]

You can use hollow point in the guardian with no trouble with the 6 round magazine, but with the extended magazine, [10 round] you may have feeding problems.  

   Check this web site under magazines for the 32 and 380 guardian.

   

   Call NAA and ask them at C/S about the message on the box of Armscor. They could probably answer you question about the Ammo.

[ashevillian]

I want to post a disclaimer here because it wasn't fair to totally put down on Dynapoint WMR - Winchester makes fine ammo in most instances, just haven't personally had any luck with the Dynapoints.  Some people love them. I was shooting all over one day with those cartys and then switched to CCI Mini-Mags 40 FMJ & JHPs, got instant hits. Double checked back with Dynapoints (may have been oscillation), but they still shot bad.  CCI just worked.  Ironically, Winchester high-end WMR is supposed to be great in NAA, so I ordered a box from Midway to find out.

   

   I called back Midway today because I have an ammo order in flight and posed the question again - their specialist said they think the sticker was put on the Philippines  (I'm assuming Armscor ships direct to Midway.)  

   

   That said, I'll call the ladies out in Utah and see what they have to say about Armscor WMRs and then shoot an email over to the folks at Armscor themselves.    

   

   XMP: Midwayusa.com is owned by Larry the AR-15 guru gunsmith of Missouri, they are gun, gun gun people - even their CS ladies know NAA stuff fairly well.  They also sell lots of ammo - not always bottom dollar on WMR ammo, however, but they have a great WMR selection when it's in stock (and they tell you when it will be in again), carry accessories for NAA products,  sport seriously excellent customer service and I like their shipping.  You can sometimes get good 500 round  WMR buys on decent ammo for around and below $100 bucks.

   

   And they may sell PMC too, not sure, think I saw it there once in another caliber.  

   

   on that last topic, oh man; cooking off anything propellant wise is always a no-bueno situation :/

[xmp]

Ash-

   

   I wasn't knocking midway at all. Heck I didn't even know they are about an hour from me. I had the same thing happen to me. I picked up some ammo and realized they had the warning sticker in it.  

   

   It seems like all the ammo with the warning were coming from the phillipines.  If naa does not recommend it. I'll just stay away from pmc and any that has that warning.  Next time I'm in Columbia Missouri I'll stop in.

[xmp]

And cook offs are No-Bueno!

[ashevillian]

Ah no worries, I was adding that disclaimer for myself about the Dnyapoints and did not even think you were knocking on Midway - wasn't sure due to the way the post was typed if you knew exactly who they were and what they did (ammo producer/manufacturer/distributor) - so it was an explaination of who they were.

   

   But if you live in Missouri - you know em!  

   

   Reminds me, calling Utah this morning about the ARMSCOR ammo.

[locoweed]

Didn't PMC become Armscor?  If so then the warning would still be valid.

[ashevillian]

Ah, the questionable WMR three: ARMSCOR, PMC and Fiocchi

   

   I've shot through as many different WMR varieties that I could find, save for PMC - I had a buddy almost knock it out of my hand at the gun shop when I picked it up one time.  That told me alot, he has shot most of his life and actually crossed the Rubicon unfortunately when he had to defend himself - so he takes ammo seriously.  

   

   PMC ammunition is mostly made in Korea (owned by a Korean company) and some ammo they make in Texas (I guess they can't import everything or the components are easier to find here).  ARMSCOR is made strickly in the Philippines (matter of fact, they put 'proudly made in the Philippines' on the box). Fiocchi is an Italian company, who imports allot of their ammunition, but the more iffy (non-import) stuff they produce at a plant in Ozark, Missouri.    

   

   I've heard/read that PMC, ARMSCOR and Fiocchi were the same ammunition, but packaged differently.  Looking at a 40gr. JHP .22 WMR ARMSCOR round and a similar Fiocchi one would give me that impression too. However, that's just an internet rumor as best as I can tell.  I saw it on several other forums, but a quick perusal of the three different companies will reveal their histories and manufacturing practices are not the same.  (If I am wrong in the end, I'd admit it - but that's the facts as best as  I can tell.)

   

   On iffy stuff like PMC ammunition, we are just dang lucky Wolf Ammunition and the Russians aren't producing that much WMR ... God forbid China.

   

   Sadly, Winchester does have a new Russian plant where they make .22 rifles. :/

   

   Ironically, ARMSCOR is OK ammunition, with Fiocchi being the better of the two.  I've had good groups with Fiocchi (and their JSP 40Gr. WMR is rumored to be good too, only fired JHP here though), but nothing really beats CCI or Hornady ammunition in .22 WMR -IMO-, with Federal, Remington and then Winchester following in close behind  

   

   (However, Winchester .22 WMR 40gr. Super X JHP standard is supposed to be the best in accuracy tests for NAA Minis, while Hornady's 30 Gr. V-Max is supposed to be the better of the two for self defense due to the superb sectional density (overall penetration), overall accuracy, velocity and nice expansion of the round after impact.)

   

   CCI or Federal Match are my .22 WMR choices for an Appleseed qualification munitions batch.  Main reason for Federal is that running through 200 rounds of Hornady hurts the wallet too much.  

   

   BTW, I wasn't able to get anyone in Utah on the phone, they may be out on vacation.

[Moderndayedison]

All this talk about ammo is making me want

   to go shoot something, I think I need to get

   out and go plinking today.

   

   

   --MDE

   

   .

[ashevillian]

Ok, here is the deal - and yes, I was partially wrong, PMC and ARMSCOR are related.

   

   According the the ladies at NAA out in Utah, ARMSCOR and PMC are the same group, they may not be the same 'company' on paper, but they are the same company in regards to the components they use and their production facilities.  They also have factories in Mexico (word to the wise).

   

   What happens is ARMSCOR and PMC ammo in a mini will 'blow up' the cartridges on either side, next to the round being fired (read chain fire). The brass is so weak that some how, the rounds fire at the same time after the primer layer is ignited in the rim due to the impact.  Most likey - and they didn't tell me this - just surmising, it is probably due to the space between chambers and cross percussion.

   

   That said,  

   

   Fiocchi may be OK, they said, however, unless you want to lose your hand or gun, and possibly your life - never use ARMSCOR or PMC ammon in NAA Mini.

[ashevillian]

Also, they primarily test with CCI and Winchester Super-X at the NAA home there in Utah.

[coinchop]

I would bet its not the small space between the  

   chambers that sets them off, but the harder impact caused by the very light weight of the minis when fired combined with sensitive primers.

[ashevillian]

and with the weak brass - yeah :/

[redhawk4]

It seems for the reasons stated above that it would be advisable not to use that ammo in any gun that is not a single shot, or may be at all.  

   

   It may just be me, but the forces generated on the other cartridges in a Mini when fired don't seem like they'd be that high. What about dropping a gun, rounds exploding in a magazine etc. - it just seems it would be safer to shop elsewhere. 22 WMR isn't expensive enough to warrant taking chances IMO.

[olgy]

To follow up on this "appropriate ammo" theme.... I can't recall anyone talking about using .22WRF (.22 Special) ammo in the Mini's.  Seems like it might be at least as good or maybe better than some LR or WMR's.  However, I saw a box of Winchester (I think).22 Specials at Cabela's the other day and it said "Not for use in revolvers"...presumably any revolver.  I don't know why it wouldn't be safe at least in a Ruger Single Six, for example. Should it be safe in a MiniMagnum cylinder?

[ephraim]

I don't believe the .22WRF is designed for the .22WMR cylinder. Is it not applicable only for the earlier Winchester models.Just a total different animal.

   E!

[olgy]

The .22WMR was created by lenghtening the .22WRF case... same diameter of case and bullet.  Maybe you are thinking of the older .22 Winchester, which was a different animal.

[olgy]

I found info in another forum (S&W) that it is CCI that does not recommend its copper jacketed .22WRF ammo for revolver use, but their Lubaloy ammo is ok.  I suspect that the longer jump from case to forcing cone might cause some lead cores to separate from their jackets when the jacket engages the rifling??

[westerly1965]

Doesn't NAA use mostly CCI for test ammo?

[ephraim]

Olgy,

   Yes, you are right. The older .22 Winchester is what I had in mind.  

   E!

[ashevillian]

Westerly1965 - check the whole post for your answer.  WRF is not the same thing as WMR - that can be confusing and it's understandable. So yes, the shop in Utah says they use CCI or Winchester Super-X WMR, and possibly in LR and Short too, but I didn't hear that personally, only that they used CCI in WMR.

[mec]

   I had this happen whith the round going across the chronograph at 1400+ fps. No damage to the NAA 22m.  Don't know what happened but I stopped using that ammunition

[coinchop]

I had that happen with Remington 22 ammo shooting it in a Win. Wildcat 22 rifle, It blew the magizine apart. Rifle kicked pretty hard for a 22.

[mec]

a couple of decades ago, 22 magnums were wrecking semi auto rifles.  I guess maybe the problem hasn't been entirely fixed