Found these articles out there and thought they were interesting...

[westerly1965]

I was cruising another forum and found a couple of articles on single action SD.  I thought it was interesting that someone was teaching a class on it and thought some of you guys might be interested in looking at it also.

   

   http://www.americanrifleman.org/arti...nsite-Academy/">http://www.americanrifleman.org/arti...nsite-Academy/

   

   Another interesting article was here:

   

   http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/single-action-self-defense">http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/single-action-self-defense

   

   Personally I just love to shoot single action revolvers.  Carry one for SD purposes?  Yep everyday lol.  Note that they are not talking about Minis but SA's in general but I still found it interesting...

[mndoug]

Westlerly:  That's a bad link on that American Rifleman article...

[westerly1965]

Oh crap so it is here try this one and see if it works for ya.

   

   http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/Single-Action-Shootout-Gunsite-Academy/">http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/Single-Action-Shootout-Gunsite-Academy/

[mndoug]

Yep, that's the right one.  Interesting article.

[redhawk4]

An interesting article, but while I agree a SA might compete on speed with a cocked and locked 1911, given a safety has to come off vs a hammer being cocked, there are flaws to that argument. Firstly the 1911 will fire the next 5 rounds vastly quicker than the SA revolver and still have two or three more shots to go. It then has the possibility for a rapid reload which the SA generally does not facilitate. Secondly a good double action revolver should be faster to the first shot and subsequent shots (bar fanning)and shoots better with one hand in a scuffle and can still be fired SA if required.

   

   It seems people are trying to make facts fit a pre-conceived preference. I have no doubt there are people so proficient with a SA revolver they could shoot me 3 or 4 times before I could clear leather, but that hardly proves the case for the majority of us to use the same. I have nothing against someone using a SA revolver if they think it works for them, confidence in your carry gun is paramount. While they mention the concept of fanning, to achieve rapid fire, this is not a technique that is going to prove accurate for most users, personally I think in most situations, thats best left to the movies. It's probably a good way for most of us to find our guns empty before we've achieved the desired result.

   

   When we look at revolvers like our NAA's, single action makes sense because it keeps them so small, light and concealable, which is there real strength. I think the concealability in itself gives you a useful element of surprise in many scenarios. It's also better to have your SA NAA with you than the 1911 or DA revolver you left at home.

   

   When I see the Police, Military, Special Forces and SWAT carrying large single action revolvers, I'll reconsider the idea, until then this is a romanticised notion IMO.

[mndoug]

I look at it this way:

   

   1.  The development of weaponry has always been driven by military forces.

   

   2.  The military's mission is to kill people and keep from being killed.

   

   3.  If the six-gun were still the most effective self-defense pistol available, we wouldn't have the 1911 or the M9 or any of the other successors to the Colt Single Action Army.

   

   If only everyone but our military and law enforcement carried six guns... it'd be a much quieter (and less-populated) world.  

   

   That said, I'd much rather have a loaded SAA in my nightstand than nothing at all!

[lohman446]

Understand though that military and law enforcement are much more likely to come up against multiple armed attackers than a civilian.  I look at self defense from the civilian stand point as being self preservation.  Officers often have a duty that precludes simple retreat.  Civilians do not as much.  If you are in a situation where speed is critical enough that the difference between SA / DA and DA/SA matters from a concealed position chances are you have larger issues.  Its why I am comfortable as a civilian with a mini in my pocket.  I would not be comfortable with that being my only firearm in a law enforcement / military role.

[wildtim]

I actually had to join just to post on this topic, LOL

   

   I agree that for most of the time carry a Single action main gun makes no sense there are times when it will be what you are doing especially if you hunt with a handgun.  In hunting season I am actually far more proficient at hitting things and acquiring targets quickly with my single action pistols than my EDC gun mostly because at that time my EDC is likely to stay on my hip as I practice for bringing home some nice meat.

   

   I also would not feel underarmed carrying my .45lc SAA on my hip open carry.  I actually have done so on occasion (there is a coolness factor I can't deny).  I am also as fast or faster out of the holster with it than any other gun I own, not even including having to deal with a cover garment.  For me a fast accurate first shot seems just as important as having a 30+ deep magazine (including reloads).  

   

   To throw up something that hasn't been discussed, but always is in these threads, is the fact that single action pistols (in main gun calibers anyway) are not concealable and leaves only the option of open carry.   This is very true.  The argument then goes that the gun owner wants "the element of surprise".  To this I say, "crap", screw that, I don't want the element of surprise, I'm selfish, I want the soon to be robber to see my gun and decide to wait for me to exit the store before starting anything.  Remember the majority of armed encounters end when the criminal sees that you are armed.  why hide the fact?  

   

   Now a nice little holdout like the NAA for those situations when the criminal is looking to take hostages rather than cash.....(thats why I;m on this board here surprise might be worth something  but the odds of encountering this isn't worth planning your whole carry battery around otherwise you would have a AK down your leg.

[coinchop]

Wildtim>>>

   Welcome to the forum.

   More input is always welcone..

[wyn]

I think a SA is better than no gun. There are many who are quite proficient at SA. If someone gets the drop on you it won't matter what you are carrying. Like Wyatt Earp said in a encounter drawing your gun the key is to "take your time in a hurry". Hope we never need to use our weapons.

[lohman446]

I would rather have a SA 45 then a lot of other guns.  And there are SA guns that were carryable.

   

   Step 1)  Avoid situations and circumstances that require a gun fight

   Step 2)  Have a gun

   Step 3)  Be competent with said gun

[coinchop]

One of my favorite SA guns is the slim little  

   Ruger Bearcat. I have been known to carry one.

   I always felt it would do what I needed to do,  

   and it was pretty easy to carry. I think the main

   thing is to be familiar with what we carry.

   Besides that, I will always have a Bearcat as

   long as I have guns...

[redhawk4]

Welcome Wildtim.

   

   My only point against open carry is that you could be targeted for you weapon and approached accordingly. You could also be immediately shot in any kind of attack/robbery because they see the gun on your hip. I'm not saying your points are wrong or mine are right, just that either scenario could happen. I guess it's up to each of us to decide on the one we feel is best for us concerning carry, personally I prefer the element of surprise route - I feel I have one natural advantage there in that, if people hear me speak, they will assume an English guy definitely won't have a gun

[westerly1965]

LOL Red really?  I have met some pretty heavy packing brits over the years!  Don't get me wrong I wasn't really advocating SA as a great form of CC.  I just thought the articles were interesting and thought you all might like to see them.  That said.. I am almost as fast with a ruger single six as I am with my Guardian.  What does that mean?  Hell I don't know.  But my father in law has a small Ruger??  I am not sure what it is with about a 3 inch barrel in SA .357.  Carried in a Huckleberry rig it is very easy to conceal in the winter months and very fast to deploy and shoot.  Hes good with it much faster then I am with a Guardian from IWB.  I think the reality of it is that everyone has to do what works for them.  And that will be different for everybody.  

   

   Red you are right when you say that the NAA's fill a different niche then the SA thing.  In that being SA they can stay very very small so as to be easily concealable and I think that is why most of us carry them.

[coinchop]

Most everything in this life has a trade off...

[westerly1965]

Thats very true Coin....and I have to say if I get to pick between 6 shots of .357 or 10 shots of .40 or 9mm (ten rounds is the max clip in the peoples republic of CA) I will take the .357 everyday and twice on Sunday!

[redhawk4]

"Most everything in this life has a trade off..."

   

   Ain't that the truth

   

   "I have met some pretty heavy packing brits over the years!"

   

   We're making up for being deprived earlier in life  

   

   A lot of us also have first hand experience of being on the violent streets of the UK, without 2nd Amendment benefits, thereby appreciating them more than some of you natives ;)

[coinchop]

Redhawk.

   I can not imagine living someplace where  

   everybody knowes for sure that that you are

   unarmed. At least in most of this country  

   nobody knowes for sure if you are armed or not

   which is in a lot of cases a plus for the  

   person that isn't

[doc_stadig]

I just noticed this thread, there was a time right after I retired from the Army that I had an opportunity to test my speed with a single action revolver against the clock through a fast draw demonstration at a 1840's mountain man era sales event. The way it works is you face a 4" target with a .357 revolver, in my case, it was a Ruger Vaquero. The sequence of events was to stand in front of the target with a holstered revolver, at the command "shooter ready" a variable delay timer is triggered, when the timer lights the bulb, your time starts, you must first, acquire your revolver, either thumb back, or fan the hammer back, acquire your target, then fire your revolver, hitting your target. Reading this takes far longer than even an average shooter can do that, my time was 0.395 seconds, with a borrowed rig, and revolver, I'm not near as fast as this guy,  

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H0dYEjR-jA">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H0dYEjR-jA

   who claims to be the fastest gun in the world with a single action revolver, but I know, short of carrying my 1911 cocked with a chambered round with the weapon in my hand, I'd never be able to acquire a target and fire any faster than that. I know that was under ideal circumstances, but the point is a single action wheel gun can be extremely fast weapon in the proper hands.  

   The real test of a weapon truly requires familiarity with it. Acquisition, and engagement, should become second nature, and that can best happen by using the same technique over and over, whether your weapon is an auto-loader, a single action, double action, or cue stick.

   

   

   Doc

[heyjoe]

Redhawk have you heard about this case? Apparantly some people here dont want Brits armed either.

   http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/06/new-aclu-lawsuit-expand-south-dakota-gun-rights/?test=latestnews">http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/06/new-aclu-lawsuit-expand-south-dakota-gun-rights/?test=latestnews

[rjtravel]

That guy definitely is FAST, but I can't help but wonder if he wears that heavy glove on his left hand to disguise his missing fingers.  He is really playing with fire.

   Richard

[xmp]

That's bob munden. Check him out on YouTube he does some other amazing stuff.

[redhawk4]

Heyjoe, I never thought the ACLU would be fighting to support my rights LOL

   

   That is a strange situation over non citizens gun rights. Having said that someone who is legally in the immigration system has been subjected to an awful lot of checks both in this country and their home country before and during their tenure here, so should be a safe bet to be a responsible gun owner. As a legal permanent resident, you can also still be deported if you commit a serious crime.

   

   I'm guessing getting a concealed permit is pretty similar everywhere, in terms of a legal alien having to provide necessary proof of legal residence as part of the application to the state. Further more the BCI check looks into this also. When I got my Green Card, they put my date of entry into the country as on that day, although I'd been living here on a visa for 4 years before that. I went to buy a gun and was refused, the reason was because I'd not been in the country long enough. I spoke with the INS people and got it sorted and was good to go a few days later.

   

   It seems this case is the usual of people passing laws that don't understand the system. From my experience/understanding of the system an illegal immigrant has no way to legally buy a gun or have a CWP under existing rules. Secondly if you are a legal permanent resident you a guaranteed constitutional rights as per a citizen. One of these is gun ownership, it says so right on the leaflet the INS sends you when you achieve that status. It therefore seems that South Dakota could well be treading on constitutional rights, IMO for no good reason as current Federal laws already prevent illegal immigrants from getting weapons legally and subsequently CWPs because of the BCI check for that. It seems if you were an illegal immigrant it would be rather stupid to apply for a CWP, as you would be highlighting your status as part of the process.

   

   This case also highlights the way CWP's by state can produce pitfalls and gray areas. For example UT has reprocity with North Dakota. So what happens if I visit North Dakota? could the gentleman in question get a UT permit and then carry in his home state?

   

   As a legal permanent resident, I am truly grateful that 2nd amendment rights are extended to us. Coming from Great Britain that never ceases to amaze me, that so easily rights are extended to me, that are denied in my country of birth, without me yet being a citizen. As a once 11 year old who thumbed back and forward through his "Guns and Gun Collecting Book" imagining which guns he would like to own, it gives me a big smile just thinking how fortunate I am - God Bless the USA

[heyjoe]

From what i have seen of the process for local legislatures passing bills, most of the time they arent read or understood by the people voting for them. Certainly conflicts with the constitution seldom enter into the thought process never mind the decision making process. Usually the committee chairman for the appropriate legislative committee that  deals with that particular area of life or law makes a recommendation (based on whatever interests helped to elect him) to that legislative body's leader by party and the rest of the legislators vote according to their party leaders recommendations. There is very little reading,or thinking going on. Of course this process can be extrapolated to Congress on the national level also.  

   

   I would have expected this of other states with in general restrictive gun laws, but not South Dakota.

[rjtravel]

They can read?

[heyjoe]

point taken

[fdm]

You bubbas don't know what is interesting, now that article about the NRA's secret hand shake, was of some intrest.

[red14]

Heyjoe,  

   

   c'mon maaaannnn, using words like extrapolated is just not fair.  Now I hafta look it up and then ask somebody to 'splain' it to me.

[doc_stadig]

Red14,

   One might thunk whut ewe gots yur book-larnin at the same place whut Mac Muz dun gots his'n

   lol

   

   

   Doc

[heyjoe]

Of course this process can be extrapolated to Congress on the national level also.  

   

   Southern translation: i reckon this in here thing can be pinned on dat dere bunch of no good varmints in DC who i heard tell couldnt run a dairy queen.

[redhawk4]

couldn't run a bath, more like . . .

[westerly1965]

LOL

[gunfitrip]

I have many times carried a 5 1/2 in SAA in my waistband under my vest on strong side(right for me). I can pull that gun and get an accurate round off pretty quick. I will hold the vest over the gun and move the vest back and pull the gun with the same move.  A single action works fine for me. I just don't do it that often due to convenience of NAA firearms.