Mouse guns - cocked and locked ?

[bama22]

Was wondering if it was safe to carry these striker-fired semi-autos in cocked and locked mode: Colt Hammerless 25ACP, Baby Browning, and Jennings (POS but works) 22LR.  

   

   I tend to like guns with exposed hammers, NAA and Beretta. Curious if those listed above could fire if dropped. Thanks guys.  No "knock down" sermons please, they've played.

[bama22]

Thanks to you who have responded already on the "lost thread", didn't know how to work it.

[chopprs]

I would not carry any striker fire gun cocked and locked. It would scare you if you saw the tiny sear that holds the striker back. The slightest jolt can cause one to fire. Baby Browning comes apart in one second. Take a look at it.

[scion]

The Colt Hammerless has a couple of safeties that block the sear unless activated, one of which is a 1911 type grip safety.  That's pretty foolproof.  I'm not sure of the Browning operation, but it isn't a pistol with a reputation for NDs, and it has a long history.

   

   I don't know anything about Jennings other than I don't want one.

[Uncle_Lee]

No, wouldn't carry one of the little striker fired semis cocked.

[heyjoe]

choppers is right on the money. i bought a baby browning and there wasnt much left of the sear, the lip was almost completely worn. a good knock would have released it.

[mayvik]

I have carried a (POS but works!) J22 "condition two".  It's probably not the safest but between method of carry and likelihood of an AD, I took the chance as I didn't have anything better at the time.  If I'm in a situation where my best hope is pulling out a Jennings..I'd rather not have to rack the slide first!

   

   As far as firing if dropped, I imagine it's possible, but again, not likely.  The striker is not exposed like a hammer spur, so you'd either need to drop it on something pointy or REALLY jar the sear just right.  Yes it's tiny, but those little springs are still pretty stiff.  Yes, the "structural" metal on some of these SNS's is pretty subpar, but much like any other firearm if you take proper care of them they're functional and safe.

   

   Of course, I'd also have to actually drop it in the first place, which would mean I a) was carrying very poorly or b) had to draw the gun and fumbled it/got disarmed, in which case an AD is probably the least of my worries.

[chopprs]

There should be a law that bullets should not be allowed near anything that Jennings makes!

   

   I also think we should hand them out to Jihadists for free.........

[sirbarkalot]

I would not carry ANY striker fired single action cocked. If you saw all that is keeping that thing from shooting you, you would not either. to be safe, carry chamber empty. Now the Colt pockets, in 32 and 380 have internal hammers and the safeties are MUCH more reliable  

   

   Barky

[bill_deshivs]

People have carried quality striker-fired semiautos for over 100 years. They are perfectly safe if properly maintained and handled.

[westerly1965]

I'm with you choppers!  Used to have one of those .22 LR Jennings.  It jammed literally every time you pulled the trigger and I'm not kidding!  I did find that if I fired shorts through it I didn't get as many jams....even ran the entire clip through most of the time without jamming on me.  In the end I'm really glad I found the mini .22 revolvers.  They are the safest way IMHO to carry this small caliber and still fairly accurate.  The NAA's have that awesome little hammer lock on the wheel.  And even my freedom arms that I carry almost daily I just carry it hammer down on an empty cylinder if I'm going somewhere where I think I need more then 4 shots then I also need a bigger round so I grab my Guardian and go...

[mayvik]

Bah.  I inheritied my J22 from my father, and it's been working like a champ since he got it used in the mid 90s.  Feed it Minimags and it's happy.  Only problem he ever had with it didn't go into battery all the way on a Thunderbolt and there was some gas blowout.  Never had a problem with it myself.  If you keep them clean (thoroughly, not just the barrel), and don't planning on them being 20,000 round guns, they seem fine to me.

   

   Not an NAA by any stretch of the imagination..but hey, what is?

[chopprs]

"Bah"

   

   ...kewl, Mayvik is a Pirate!

   Pirates are kewl!  

   

   

[mayvik]

YAR!

[stungun]

Personally, I think cocked & locked is pretty crazy.

   

   I feel like it's a false sense of security.

   

   I'd rather just rack the slide... even a Jennings J-22, as hard as that is to believe.

   

   I'd rather know exactly how hard I need to pull the slide back than deal with adjusting my strong grip.  Pulling the slide back is consistent on all guns.  Safeties are not.  I just drop a loaded clip in my autos and leave 'em unlocked... but I don't carry.  I'd imagine I'd carry the same way, tho.

   

   If I *were* in trouble, I'd know precisely how to grip the gun with strong hand and weak thumb/finger, rack, BOOM, BOOM.  Seems a lot more instinctual *and* safer, IMHO.

[bill_deshivs]

What if you were using that hand to fend off an attack?

[bama22]

I appreciate all the input. The Jennings doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the company of Colt and Browning. I bought it "for a song" at a Birmingham gun show. I was surprised when it worked, had some ejection problems, works great with Aquilla SSS 60 grain loads, the short brass doesn't get caught on the exit. It's kind of a tool box gun.  

   The Colt is a quality gun but kind of heavy for it's size.

   Might want to carry the Baby Browning some of the time, it'll rattle off a quick 7 with reliability, and has a cocking indicator.

   What Bill said about needing 2 hands was pertinent, I would probably take my eyes off the BG to see the round chambered as well. But I want to do what is safe, the Browning manual says don't carry with a chambered round, maybe some of that is CYA. (?)

[mayvik]

I would love to see some data on the number of ADs due to mechanical failure (I'm discounting drops here since dropping your weapon is not your weapon's fault..).  CAN the sear fail and release the striker?  Sure, I'll give you that.  But every molecule in the gun could also spontaneously disappear and reappear somewhere else in the universe.  It's just really, really unlikely.  You assume some amount of risk just by carrying..I am not convinced that the extremely small chance of catastrophic mechanical failure is worth making presentation of this type of gun a two handed operation.

   

   Stungun: You don't get much of a "strong grip" on those little frames anyway!  Moving the tip of my thumb 1/8" up/down to toggle the safety is pretty minimal movement and should not adversely affect the precision shooting of the Jennings ;)

[stainless1]

Scion, I have a 1903 Colt .32.  I've done a lot of research on it.  It does indeed have a manuel and grip safety; however, it isn't actually  hammerless and striker fired.  Once the slide is removed, one can see that it does have a hammer, concealed by the slide.  I have had knowledgable gun smiths tell me that they are safe carried cocked, and some have told me that it is unsafe due to it's tiny sear.  It should be noted that long time Swat Magazine writer, Steve Malloy was killed accidentally on April 16th. of last year when the .32 1903 Colt, which he was carrying in his front waistband discharged.  His body was found in his garage.  It is unknown if it may have fallen out and hit the back of the slide causing the firing pin to hit the primer of the round in the chamber.  stainless

[scion]

Stainless1,  I think, the original poster Bama22 and I are refering to a different model than you.  A colt 1903 in .32acp and a 1908 hammerless in .25acp are not the same at all.  The 1908 is a striker fired mousegun, similar to the baby Browning.

   

   But your point is well taken.  Some guns are not as safe as others.

[chopprs]

Yessir, they are two completely different guns......

   

   1903 .32 ACP

   

   

   1908 .25ACP

   

[chopprs]

Here is a blow up of the .32 showing the internal hammer:

   

   

[lashlarue]

I think Glock leads the pack with negligent dicharges.I am getting a Taurus 709 and that trigger in S/A is about three pounds,*** sure wont be carrying cocked and locked. When I carried my Kel-tec with it's 8.5 lb trigger the one time I had to pull it,I was able to rack the slide before the carjacker could pull his pistol out of his waistband.The deputy sheriff couldn't  stop laughing while he was carting this dumbass to jail.His words,"Did he actually think that you would hand over the keys by simply pointing to the pistol in his waistband...

[sirbarkalot]

Glock is for sure the number one AD gun.  BUT we were talking about what is SAFE, and the Glock, as much as I despise them, is SAFE to carry fully loaded.  IT WILL NOT fire if you don't pull the trigger and all the Glock AD's I have ever even HEARD OF are operator error as someone pulled the trigger.  (Including the one that happened in the St.Pete Police Pistol range by the attorney who is now the Public Defender, who managed to shoot himself in the stomach when he pushed his LOADED Glock down into the plastic boxes they used to come in with the pin molded into the bottom of the box that went into the trigger guard of the gun in front of the trigger to keep the gun from rattling around in the box, with the muzzle of the loaded gun pointed at his tummy)  But that was strictly stupid on his part.  Glock paid big time for that one however.  So much for "justice".  

   This discussion was really about the little strinker fired cheapies and there is really no comparison between those and the Glock.

[bill_deshivs]

Nor are the Colt and Browning cheapies. The Jennings is another matter....

[stungun]

"I think Glock leads the pack with negligent dicharges.I am getting a Taurus 709 and that trigger in S/A is about three pounds,*** sure wont be carrying cocked and locked. When I carried my Kel-tec with it's 8.5 lb trigger the one time I had to pull it,I was able to rack the slide before the carjacker could pull his pistol out of his waistband.The deputy sheriff couldn't stop laughing while he was carting this dumbass to jail.His words,"Did he actually think that you would hand over the keys by simply pointing to the pistol in his waistband..."  (-- Lashlarue)

   

   =======================================================

   

   Exactly!!

   

   With guns that have no safeties, I'd prefer the safety to be no bullet in the chamber.  If a gun has a safety, I'd prefer to never use it (I must figure out how to completely disable that "feature" on my Jennings).

   

   I prefer the reassurance of loading the gun in front of the criminal, as well.  Much more intimidating to hear & see the weapon loading in front of your face.

   

   I don't buy the one handed argument.  I can drop whatever's in my other hand, I'm sure.  I've never seen a safety that doesn't totally affect my "strong" grip, the angle of my wrist, and even my mindset.

   

   This is how I practice, because it is consistent across all auto-loaders.  But to each his own, of course.

   

   And you guys shouldn't make so much fun of the Jennings.  After some PB Blaster, mine fired 30 shots without a single failure.  Not bad for $80 at a gun show, and it even came w/ some nice wooden grips.

   

   Any gun that can fire 30 outta 30 rounds of 22LR successfully is OK in my book, forget the fact that it's only $80.

   

   All just my humble opinion, however.

[bama22]

Just because you paid too much for the Jennings is no reason to depend on it. It will eventually fly all to pieces. Bought mine because it shoots 22LRs. It's a "throw down", stays in the tool box. The safety IS too easy to move, it can be easily removed and discarded once you get the slide off (push the little eyeball on the back of the slide, lift the slide up and pull it back) Get a good backstop to catch the flying springs and striker.

   

   Why the Glock hatred, Barky ?  Yeah they're ugly and plastic but all the cops and firemen up here swear by them, usually in 40 cal.  Just wondering, want to get a "bigfoot gun" with high capacity one day.

   

   I think I'll go with what Bill said; I don't need to be racking the slide if someone has me in a headlock.  My Baby Browning is like new and should be reliable and not have a worn sear. But what I'm accustomed to are my NAA minis and the Beretta.  Being a young geezer with fingers starting to malfunction I don't think I could work the trigger on the Guardian, though I'd like to shoot one.  RTR!

[bill_deshivs]

Stungun,

   There are accepted methods for carrying guns. These methods have been worked out by experts all over the world. It's interesting that you know better than them.

[Uncle_Lee]

To me, an expert is someone who gets paid to state their opinion. I don't have to agree with them. What I know I have learned the hard way.

[chopprs]

Hhhhmmm......I have had peeps pay me for my opinion. I have had them pay me to teach them about guns. Wether or not that makes me an expert, I happen to agree with Lee. The things that I know and teach when asked to are known to me from my experiences not because someone who calls himself an expert says so. I have taken training classes with NRA cerified instructors that pointed guns at me. I actually had to take a gun away from one during a class once because he kept pointing it at people saying it was not loaded. I have had my share of "experts"!  

   I am sure that Barky's experience forms his opinion as does every cop that I ever met. Doing things that "may" not be safe for whatever reason usually wind up biting you in the Bozak!!! OUCH!!!

[Uncle_Lee]

Yep Chopprs, if you have been paid for your opinion, you ARE an expert. Congrats.

[lashlarue]

I have a j-22, it's been fired six times with cci-stingers.I tried bulk pack and it would not feed them. I reloaded it with stingers and it now ranks as my 12th gun in the event of self defense needs. BTW I have 12 guns.If I had to use the Jennings it would mean I had fired more than 200 rounds in that gunfight...

[lashlarue]

I have a j-22, it's been fired six times with cci-stingers.I tried bulk pack and it would not feed them. I reloaded it with stingers and it now ranks as my 12th gun in the event of self defense needs. BTW I have 12 guns.If I had to use the Jennings it would mean I had fired more than 200 rounds in that gunfight...

[trotterlg]

I have a little Raven 25 ACP that works every time.  I would never carry it with a round in the chamber however.  These were designed by an Aeronautical Engineer, so I know they are really good guns.  ;^) Larry

[trotterlg]

I think the 1908 is decended from this little guy made by Unceta and Co.  They have an internal hammer and fireing pin as I think the little colt 25 acp has.  I have this thing in my desk taken apart for referb, so I know it has a hammer.  Larry