Mouse guns - cocked and locked ?

[westerly1965]

Thats true also choppers....a better quality firearm is a better idea.  I guess that is what this thread started about.

[sirbarkalot]

Some on here may not know it (and obviously do not) but there are 3 basic ways for a "safety" to work.

   1: simply block the trigger from moving so if you press it, the gun does not fire.  This is commonly found on cheaper guns, and MANY of the older (read: up to WWII vintage) guns of good and great quality.  The problem here is that by only blocking the trigger, this leaves the sear on its own, only held in place doing it's job of holding the striker or hammer in the cocked position by spring pressure and friction.  No metal or solid block to keep the sear from being jarred from engagement with the striker or hammer.  These will often fire if dropped or banged in the right direction, and this direction is often, muzzle down, where guns tend to fall.  In addition, a failed sear pin or sear spring can make this more likely and you won't even know you have a problem intil too late.

   

   2:  A safety that blocks the sear.  Since it mechanically blocks the actual piece of steel that is holding the hammer or striker back, it is much more secure.  These will generally also block the trigger because the trigger is indirectly connected to the sear (usually via a draw bar of one sort or another); if the sear cannot move, the trigger will be somewhat blocked but may feel a little play.  The Ruger 22 auto pistol has a safety that drops a notched piece of steel over the top of the sear, and mechanically holds the sear into the engagement notch of the hammer, holding it back.  This safety, if it has not been fooled with, is very secure as the hammer cannot move short of a pin shearing off, and will not fire if dropped.

   

   3: A safety that blocks both the sear and the trigger.  Of course, the best of both.

   

   Older guns, even well made ones, made prior to the law suit culture that we live in now, often had trigger block safeties, and people grew up handling guns, shooting guns, and taking responsibility for what they do and did.  If they pointed the gun at themselves and managed to shoot themselves, they accepted it as their error.  (speaking in general terms here; so there are of course exceptions, so don't bother telling me of "unlce louie's case")  Even in those older days, gun manufacturers told the owners of their guns not to carry their auto pistols with a round in the chamber.  This was not just to keep from getting sued, it was to keep from having their customers shoot themselves or someone else by accident.

   

   (Cont)

[sirbarkalot]

PG2:

   

   

   As law suits moved into "normal" where everyone sues everyone, safeties changed and got better, and in the 1970's you started to see firing pin safties introduced.  That was the main difference between the series 70 1911 Colt model and the series 80 1911 Colt.  The 1980 had added a firing pin safety.  Prior to 1980, NO COLT had a firing pin safety, and if any of those were dropped and hit a hard surface on the muzzle, the weight of the firing pin in it's channel COULD and DID sometimes fire the gun, with the hammer still held back by the sear and the safety.

   

   This was also a problem with the first generation S&W auto pistols such as the model 39.  The 39 does not have a firing pin safety.  The 39 has a half cock notch on the hammer to catch the hammer in the event it slips out from under your thumb while cocking it, or gets bumped by a table or something while in the holster and the hammer is pushed back far enought to fire the gun if it falls from that point, as there is no firing pin safety.  The second generation S&W guns added the firing pin safety, activated by the third lever that was added under the slide.  Prior to that, there were only 2 levers.  The half cock notch on the hammer now became un-needed and in the third generation guns, it was eliminated.

   

   The Raven has been re-invented in many manifestations with many names.  That is because they get sued into bankruptsy fairly often, often due to the gun going off when it is not supposed to; or not going off when it IS supposed to.  In each case, they close the doors, Raven ceases to exist, and the very same gun, with some cosmetic changes and a new name, but still the same gun becomes a Davis.  (now Davis is gone I think and there is a new name for the same cheap gun)

   

   My point here, is not to tell old timers like Bill what to do.  It is to share knowledge that many simply do not have, in an effort to help them to aviod shooting themselves.

   

   Most of the newly manufactured guns today, ARE intended to be carried with a round in the chamber.  I carried a second and then a third generation S&W compact 9mm (669 second gen, and 6906 third gen) for about 10 years with the chamber loaded.  The last 5 or so years, I got a carried a Beretta 92 DA only, as the department had decided to allow us to buy and carry our own guns.  I of course carried the Beretta with a round in the chamber.  It is made for that.

   

   If you choose to be an old fool (or a young one), and choose to carry a vintage semi-auto pistol with a round in the chamber, by all means do it, but do it knowing you are being a fool.  When Murphy pays you a visit, and everthing that can go wrong, does; you will have that gun fail to do what you want it to.  That is why newer guns have had additional safety equipment installed in them.  The old Colt or Browning pocket guns are fine old guns, but remember that Colt and Browning TOLD you to keep the chamber empty for good reason.

   

   I mentioned the Israeli method in response to someone acting like I was stupid for suggesting an empty chamber.  I NEVER mentioned Mossad.  The Israeli method is an answer to the guy who says an empty chamber is an "unloaded gun" (look above and find where he said it yourself,,,I am not looking it up) and will get you killed when you get jumped.  (and he accuses ME of being a you tube addict!!!)  Auto pistols can be 1) unloaded 2) loaded with no round chambered or 3) loaded and chambered.  The confusion of these three situations is one of the things that get people shot and and explanation to how guns get fired at guns shows.  (I am sure you have read or heard about it.  It is nearly always an old guy BEHIND the sales table that does it, becasue he is convinced he knows it all, and is an "expert")  

   

   Someone once said "there is no fool like an old fool"

   

   If you folks want to take your chamber empty advise from a fellow who is basically a jewelry maker and knife collector and repairman, go right ahead.  (Read his own website, at the link he provided)  None of you live close enough to shoot me by accident.

   

    Sorry it is so long.

[redhawk4]

Westerley, I don't entirely agree with your point about the lack of a need to draw and fire one handed. I can think several situations where this might be needed. Just because the other guy doesn't have a gun, doesn't mean you can't be legitimately in fear of your life and rightly so, he could be much bigger/stronger/younger/insane or there could be multiple assailants who just want to kick you to the gates of death, they don't know you have a gun and may just start in on you. What if a large fierce dog attacks you, as you are walking down the street and latches onto your arm. We hear of the need to learn to shoot with either hand in case we get wounded in one arm, if that wound is caused by the first part of an attack, by bullet knife etc. and we need to rack a slide, we've got a problem - I could go on, I'm not so concerned with the statistical likelihood of them occurring, just that they feasibly could happen.

   

   For all round ease of use, it seems a DA handgun that has a round chambered and is ready to go, will be best for most people, giving them maximum protection in the most possible scenarios - if something can happen, why not have that possibility available to you? I carry a gun for protection, but have no idea what form the threat will present itself in, if indeed it ever does.  

   

   Cocked and locked is also fine for those who are comfortable with that, but for me, generally, I'd rather a more modern, or different design that doesn't require me to make a choice between cocked and locked and the other alternative states of readiness.

[bill_deshivs]

Chopprs-

   You impolitely called me an asshole. I suggest you look in the mirror.

   I held an FFL for about 25 years, and I built custom pistols, did engraving, etc. I'm sorry you think my experience outrageous. I, equally, find your inability to comprehend pitiful.

   You, sir are a classic "bully" type. I won't get into a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

   I assume you build bikes, but don't test them for strength.

[chopprs]

I believe the word was "sphincter" and I NEVER said it was directly pointed at you, and I quote myself:

   "Some people do ridiculous things with guns that they just should not for any reason. Some people say ridiculous things about guns that they just should not. It is sphincters like this that give the anti-gun nuts ammunition when they want to take our guns away. They make us ALL look bad! "

   I also had my FFL for decades, so what? That and .99cents will get you a Whopper Junior at Burger King! Does it make you a Professional Gun Tosser on the Grounder? I don't remember that being part of the certification?!?!?

   A lot of people don't like to hear the truth and the truth is that throwing guns against the ground just to see what they will do is ridiculous by any salient aspect......sorry if you feel..."bullied"!

[westerly1965]

LOL ok Redhawk point taken.  I carry a spyderco locker in one pocket and usually another knife in the other.  If a dog grabs my arm I'll stick him till he lets go period.  Still don't need my sidearm.  I'm not saying I couldn't get jumped I'm just saying that the liklyhood of it happening isn't there.  If I have time to pull I hopefully have time to take three steps away from the BG pull and fire.  (A process that will take me a sum total of about 5 seconds with my Guardian in my IWB with no round in the pipe).  Also when I am carrying a semi auto I am almost always carrying in an IWB strong side.  If the BG has my gun arm I cannot get to my sidearm with my off arm and will have to go for a knife.  Again I'm not saying its impossible I'm just saying its improbable....

   

   Barky good post lots of handy info.  I have one of those smith 4014's good little gun.

[rjtravel]

Wow - really good info Barky shared...thanks!   Got a new understanding of my venerable model 39.  Gonna print this and copy for my kids and grandsons, most of who carry.

   Richard

[bill_deshivs]

I give up. Some of you guys seem to need to feel as though you have to be right. This is fine with me. I know my credentials, and I don't feel bullied. I just call them as I see them.

[apple_a]

This seems to be a current production, high quality, baby browning style striker fired .25, and i think i may want one. cocked and locked(maybe?)

   

   http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/59740-55.html">http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/59740-55.html

[silvershooter]

Westerly, I would suggest that you watch a wide variety of actual crime footage or at least Americas most wanted. "Hoping" that you will have 5 seconds to load your gun and take 3 steps back seems a little naive to me. No offense meant, I just believe in hoping for the best but Planning for the Worst. Attacks can be sudden and unpredictable. Criminals will use the element of surprise and often work in  

   pairs or groups, maybe only one will have a gun while the  

   others use knives or less. I just can't see any reason to carry  

   a guardian unloaded. That's like when someone told me they  

   kept their gun on the car seat under a newspaper with the  

   magazine out. WHY? They bragged about how fast they  

   could load it if necessary. I think they would see their  

   foolishness if they ended up in a car wreck, in a pond or river,  

   with a broken arm and no way to shoot out a window; or if a carjacker ran up and shot them in the left humerous; or if a stray pit bull was firmly clamped down on their forearm; or ....

   Kind of reminds me of Barney with the one bullet in his shirt pocket. Just my take, think about it.

[westerly1965]

Silver I understand your point....that said I also believe that if you are aware of your surroundings paying attention as you should be at all times the likelihood of those situations is reduced.  I watch americas most wanted from time to time I try to avoid place's where those things happen.  If I am entering one of those places I have time to load the gun and slip it back into its holster before I get out of the car or building I am in.  Takes barely a second of your time and reminds you to be on your toes you are in a place where you might actually need your gun.  As to everyone's rabid dog theory.  If I am traveling in the woods where I am likely to run into a truly "rabid" animal I have one in the pipe.  On the other hand if I am in someplace where the dogs not going to be rabid I really don't fear dogs or feel that I will have to shoot one.  They are animals and can be cowed with voice and commands.  I have met a lot of really mean dogs over the years (worked with them for years and years) and have rarely if ever been bit by one.  (That isn't to say it can't happen its just to say its unprobable.) I don't worry as much about the group of BG's as I do the random crackhead.  I can pretty safely guarantee I can get the drop on a random crackhead without having to shoot him.  Will I if I think hes going to kill me?  Sure I will but most of them just need a good kick in the ass unless they are armed.  Awareness to my surroundings should keep me out of the 3 BG'S spot but if I ever do end up there and find I get my ass beat because I didn't have a round in the pipe for some reason believe me I will be certain to post it here immediately lol.  

   

   As to the gun not being loaded on the car seat.  I would ask if that person lived in CA?  In CA there is case law on the books making that a legal way to carry under the open carry laws.  Permits are very hard to get in CA so it might be the only available "legal" means they have to keep a gun handy in case needed.  Again if its me and I am driving through somewhere likely to find a car jacker I would probably put one in the pipe lay the gun in my lap and drive with extreme caution until I was out of that area.  Again situational awareness.  

   

   I know everyone is all hoped up on carrying and when to use or not use and blah blah blah.  But life with a gun in your pocket is the same as life without one in your pocket.  Situational awareness is still the most important thing.  Avoid putting yourself in those positions and life is alot safer.  If you work a job or live in a rouger place on a day to day basis then by all means put one in the pipe and carry it loaded.....

[bill_deshivs]

You guys do understand that the most likely time for an accidental discharge or malfunction is when chambering/unchambering a round? Leaving the chamber loaded (quality gun) and safety on, is actually safer.

[redhawk4]

I'm with Silvershooter on this one, 5 seconds  is long enough to be killed several times over by an attacker who is already prepared.

   

   When I sense possible danger and have my hand in my pocket and fingers on the grip of my Guardian, I still wonder if I can bring it into action fast enough if required.(and yes I have a round in the chamber)

   

   From some of my experiences of being attacked (no gun on hand, they were in the UK) you will be lucky if you can raise a hand fast enough to deflect the first blow. In others there is talk and threats involved, but the attack is really quick when it starts and they are always much closer to you than you'd like, limiting your options. A friend of mine was mugged a few years back, the first thing he knew was when he was on his back on the ground, with the guys foot on his chest being threatened with a knife and asked to hand over his wallet. This was on a busy street in daylight.

   

   When seconds count and the Police are only minutes away - your gun needs to be fractions of a second away IMO. Situational awareness is essential, but despite all of that, things can often happen when least expected and in what we deem to be "safe environments". Remember thieves and bad guys deliberately target "safe environments" and "nice neighborhoods" where the pickings are easy. Deciding what is safe is a bad idea IMO, being prepared at all times is better.

[rjtravel]

Bill,

   Understood, however there is at least one situation in which "safer" is just not good enough.  In my case I am getting a bit long in the tooth, and sometimes get so exhausted that I can nod off.  Add in young grandkids and I just will not carry anything that could be a danger to them.  I selected a small auto which only I can function...no one else in my household, including my wife, can overcome safety or even come close to cycling the action, yet my practice/training allows very quick presentation.  I will not carry sometimes chambered and sometimes not chambered - I feel this a very bad practice that may leave you essentially unarmed when sudden need arises.  There are some on these boards who will pontificate that this is a flawed mode and one should learn when not to carry blah blah blah, and in their arrogance will verbally level and instruct the rest of us, but I have been carryiing for many decades and maintain this is by far the best mode for one in my situation, as long as one does it consistently.

   Richard

[silvershooter]

Situational awareness IS the first step to avoiding SOME dangers. I have seen all kinds of stuff like drug deals and car burglaries in broad daylight at very public places like parking lots. In most cases no one else noticed a thing. But being aware of my surrounds won't help me when/if a BG gets the drop on me. I certainly don't go around looking for danger at every corner. I could pretend that I live in mayberry and tell myself nothing bad will PROBABLY ever happen to me. I actually do live in a very small city but I work in a large one. Funny thing is that there is a lot of crime that goes on behind the scenes most peopele don't realize. A local online paper reports all the home invasions, atm/store robberies, thefts in my "safe" city and it's amazing there's not more reporting on the tv news.  

   I'm glad you exercise your 2nd amendment right. It's also great that you think seriously about family safety first. I just have a differing view that I always want to be prepared for the worst. I don't worry too much about the "random crackhead" as they tend to hang out in areas I don't visit. I think more about home invasions, robberies at atms, and carjackings by plain old thugs(the "takers" of our society); they happen everwhere and in nicer neighborhoods. I just don't see how it's wise to be frequently loading and unloading your weapon:  you said:  "Again if its me and I am driving through somewhere likely to find a car jacker I would probably put one in the pipe lay the gun in my lap and drive with extreme caution until I was out of that area."

   With me, it's either prepared or not prepared when I go out. Doesn't mean someone won't someday get the drop on me; but if I'm carrying then it's safely loaded (almost always a revolver like the BW though). And if I go down then my wife knows its loaded and where it's at also. No hard feelings, hope neither of us ever has to test our skills against a BG.

[silvershooter]

good point Bill, and thanks for the real-life experiences Red(agree with everything you said and how you said it).  Rj, you're considerate of your grandkids safety, consistent with your method of carry, and by being armed more prepared to protect yourself and your family than probably most people; no argument here

[chopprs]

I am not really sure if you guys are arguing or not. It seems you all say the same thing in one way or another. What you are all missing is THE most important thing, TRAINING!

   The chances are that you will be assailed by more than one person and this is why we train with an auto that is designed to be carried with a round in the chamber, SAFELY! It will save time. At least one, preferably two extra magazines are highly recommended. There are several reasons like what if there are more guys than you have bullets? You will die, PERIOD! What if you miss? You will die, PERIOD. Being prepared by training for as many scenarios as possible is the main concern here. If you want to carry a gun without a chambered round then practice that over and over and over until you can do it even if you are smashed on the head! For goodness sake do not carry a gun with no bullets in it. That is just, well it is really not a good idea.....

   What RJ said is also true and very important. Do not switch up how you carry. Different guns is one thing as long as you train with the gun carried but do not carry with one in the pipe one day and not the next. In a stressfull situation the last thing you need to do is to try to remember which way you set up your gun that morning before you holstered it. This delay will surely cause you to lose any edge you may have!

[westerly1965]

Lol choppers well said.  Like I said in one of my first posts its all personal preference on how you carry this conversation started about cheapie guns and their safety level.  I carry a semi auto about 5% of the time, the rest of the time I have a revolver in my pocket that also is personal preference.  What ever you carry trainwith it the same way all the time, your brain falls back on what its been trained to do in the end.

[silvershooter]

chopprs, I don't have the energy or desire to argue...it's a waist of time. I've done my share over the years and gotten pretty worked up in the process. I'm just trying to share my point of view. I figure either I'll learn something or I'll teach something or both: either way nothing lost.  

   I agree about the need for more training and confess my negligence in that area. Fortunately the weather is cooler and I plan to go shooting next saturday.  

   You are very correct about the need for adequate ammo. I decided a few weeks ago to try and carry two guns on a regular basis going forward; I'm not a very consistent person. The only habits I seem to keep are bad ones

   You just reminded me about the self-defense story on the NAA main page(elderly "johnwayne") who barely fought off the two attackers in his home; I think he said that he wished he had had more than 5 rounds. It was sudden, there were 2 attackers, and he ran out of bullets.

[mayvik]

Good point...I'd rather have 7 in a Jennings than 6..just in case.  That's excluding any consideration for speed of presentation.  Not to turn SafetyWars2010 into CaliberWars2010, but being that 22 isn't exactly a one-shot show-stopper I'd rather have a Calico with 100 rounds of .22LR (illegally modified for FA? ) than a SNS with 6 rounds of .22LR if I had my d'ruthers.  That not being practical, best speed and maximum capacity are preferred.

   

   Also, can't we all just agree this is a personal preference issue and stop the bickering?

[westerly1965]

I agree completely Mayvik it is definitely a personal preference issue!

[chopprs]

I never really paid much attention to them after I realized that they were junk but the Jennings, Raven, Davis has been sold again is now Pheonix Arms and according to this author is now a completely different pistol with several safeties and after you figure out how to work it and clean some of the casting flash off it works fine with no issues. I am not sure I believe it but that is what he says.....

   

   http://www.mouseguns.com/hp22a/hp22a.htm">http://www.mouseguns.com/hp22a/hp22a.htm

[sirbarkalot]

If that is the case, from what I hear, the Phoenix is an improvement.  Still a junk gun, but at the price; what would you expect.  Probably same owners.  Is it still made in south Florida?

   

   Barky

[chopprs]

The link gives a nice history of the gun/family. They sued eachother in the same family for millions.

[mayvik]

I've also got a Phoenix .22, in the kit with the extended barrel and magazine.  I would say they straddle the line between "junk gun" and "inexpensive firearm".  They shoot surprisingly well and I haven't had any reliability issues with mine other than discovering it doesn't like Mini Mags unlike every other auto pistol I've used.  The take-down procedure takes a little getting used to but once you do, it's actually pretty well thought out.

   

   The biggest problem is they are not "rated" for high velocity ammo, which can cause some (non structural) areas of the frame to crack or wrinkle over time.  People have actually cut out the cracked piece of metal and it's had no ill effects on the gun.  If you don't read the manual or do your research, you'd never know.  Mine tends to prefer well lubed solids in lieu of Mini Mags which are usually my go-to .22LR round.  

   

   The safety shenanigans is ridiculous, but that's what happens when you make firearms in CA...at least there are no stupid integral locks.  The magazine "safety" (which is really just a small piece of metal that blocks the mag release button with the trigger safety disengaged) is easily resolved with a little Dremel/file work on a $1 part, and while you're in there a little bending on another bit allows the mags drop free.    

   

   I've considered carrying the HP22, but it's as big as the LCP and heavier..so there's not really a point.  While C&L wouldn't be a problem as there's a firing pin safety in addition to the trigger safety...fumbling with 2 safeties (that go opposite directions), one of which is a tiny lever, is less desirable to me than just racking the slide..so I don't bother.

[redhawk4]

I was in a gun store yesterday, that recently opened near my home looking around and chewing the fat with the guy working there. At one point he said he liked his 22's and whipped out from his pants a Jennings 22, I was a little stuck for words, he explained he had a new extractor on order for it, as the existing one was worn out. My mind jumped to this thread as he showed me the Jennings, not "cocked and locked" actually it wasn't even loaded.

   

   He did then also produce a Glock also in 40 S&W from somewhere else in his pants to somewhat redeem himself.

[stungun]

HAH... good story.

   

   Mayvik:  Didn't realize that it wasn't rated for high-velocity ammo.  Mine's good with the MiniMags... but I'm thinking about using something different now.

[mayvik]

Stun: Yeah, do a Google search, or I think it was over on the Jennings forums where I found the info about the frame cracks and repairs.  It's that spot right on top at the sides of the magwell where the metal is REALLY thin.

[bama22]

Hoping to out-do "The Rat Shot my Phallus" thread, that seems will never die, and being thankful that no one has mentioned any of my ex wive's vendettas, bigfoot vs.grizzly, UFOs,  or carb float levels, price of gold, price of tea in China, etc. I have still some questions and conclusions about the info shared by our knowledgeable yet sometimes rancorous forum participants, to wit:

   

   What's the deal with that Israeli Method ?  May gentiles and arthritics use it, and what does it look like, will it only work for large pistols, how about tiny mouseguns ?  Got any links to videos?

   

   I have concluded that I do not want to blow my manseeds off with a piece of crap gun, although one manseed is bigger than the other two this is probably best done by a urologist. So I've decided no Jennings cocked and locked in my waistband, lest I wind up half cocked, singing tennor, or worse.

   

   Several of you have asserted that a DAO pistol would be a good option for carrying with round in tube.  I've never had one of these but I assume they have bobbed hammers, high effort triggers, and no safety. Also assume that the slide does nothing but load the gun, ie. it's not cocking it. So it seems like there will be less effort to rack the slide to load, as you're not cocking the hammer. I read somewhere that if a Kel-Tec snapped/round didn't fire, it would be trouble to clear the tube and reload, you could pull the trigger only once on the same round. Mentioned Kel-Tec because it was inexpensive. Also heard the slide guide rod should be retrofitted with a new metal rod. Any truths to my assumptions ?

   

   I appreciate the wealth of knowledge from you guys in the posts above.  mike

[chopprs]

Mike,

    Jennings is probably the best bet to achieve wishes of being a tenor. Why you have three manseeds we will not address, thank you!

   DAO is a good carry method IMO as it has the same trigger pull for all rounds and most DAO guns are designed to be safe to carry this way. There is a great company called NAA that sells a small DAO gun called the Guardian that may fit your needs. I care for larger caliber and more modern methods with lighter trigger pull so I carry a Kahr. A DAO gun will have to push the hammer out of the way as the slide is racked so it will have a similar "higher" effort of pulling the slide back as a single action gun the only difference being that the hammer will not stay back. If you want to do alot of reading about who thinks what is good, great or not you can look here:

   

   http://www.mouseguns.com/semis.htm">http://www.mouseguns.com/semis.htm

   

   ...and there is a good size comparison chart here:

   

   http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.jpg">http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.jpg

   

   As far as the Isreali method of carry it is my understanding that the Isreali Mossad used to carry a Beretta Model 70 in .22LR with a silencer in the pocket. The gun is a single action auto and was carried cocked, not locked with no round in the chamber. The hammer was left back as to make racking the slide easier. As the gun is drawn the slide is racked with the off hand and was able to be fired as fast as a gun that was/is already cocked and locked (with practice). I believe that this method was/is used to keep the chance of the gun going off as they sometimes wound up jumping up/down or maybe rolling around on the ground.

[bud]

Chopprs,    what do you think about the Kahr .380?

[redhawk4]

If they can't handle high velocity 22's with out the frame cracking, doesn't that say it all?

[chopprs]

Bud, I think it is a great little gun and it is on my list to buy one as soon as I can find a used one in great shape. I carry a PM9 daily and am a big fan of the Kahr action. They also have more twist in the barrel than most little guns so they tend to be more accurate.

[stungun]

"As far as the Isreali method of carry it is my understanding that the Isreali Mossad used to carry a Beretta Model 70 in .22LR with a silencer in the pocket. The gun is a single action auto and was carried cocked, not locked with no round in the chamber. The hammer was left back as to make racking the slide easier. As the gun is drawn the slide is racked with the off hand and was able to be fired as fast as a gun that was/is already cocked and locked (with practice)."

   

   Never thought about racking the slide and then loading the clip...

   

   That would make it easier to load the chamber later, for sure.