Mouse guns - cocked and locked ?

[chopprs]

Bill,

    I am not looking or thinking too deeply about this but can you name a (pocket sized)striker fired gun that is not junk and is less than fifty years old?

   I don't think there are too many, soooooo..........ya get my drift?

[mayvik]

"No one here is the Mossad, BTW."

   

   or ARE we?  

   

   

[scion]

Someone asked why I posted here, not having a pocket full of tiny toy revolvers that is.  I have to say, I wonder now too.  I participate in many boards, but this is the only one with a majority of worthless fools, with nothing say but the constant out of date blather incestuously shared over and over again, or praising the qualities of shitty little guns.

   

   Chopprs, don't worry, I have no desire to communicate with you, as you have nothing worthwhile to say.

   

   I thought the board would improve when CJ left.  I was wrong. Same old bullshit.

[chopprs]

I said I would not retort to your posts but please refrain from your foul language SIR!!! It is NOT WELCOME HERE AND YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD THIS BEFORE!!!!!!!!!

   I know it may be difficult but...HAVE SOME CLASS there are juveniles that visit here from time to time!!!!!!

[westerly1965]

LOL wow Scion your a real grade A jerk ehh?  If you don't like the guns and you don't like the opinions why not leave the board alone and go post on one of your internet commando sites!  Sheesh

[bill_deshivs]

Browning (pre '68,) Bauer, PSP/PSA.

   But, what does the last 50 years have to do with anything? I know D/A hammer guns are all the rage, but any of the earlier guns are still viable carry options.

[chopprs]

See, I knew you could come up with at least a couple!

   

   My point was that I don't think anyone is currently making one. I did some reading about the Jennings and apparently they are not being allowed to continue production for what seems to be safety issues, the same issues that would be had in any similar gun.

    BTW I had a Baby Browning years ago and I liked it a lot. I also had a Fraser (BB copy in stainless). I purchased the Fraser new and carried it C&L......yes it got dropped and yes it went BANG!.. not by me mind you but a college buddy while we were at the range. thankfully no one was hurt.

[rjtravel]

I am holding a S/S Bauer .25 - we have had it for approx 25 or 30 years.  It is marked 'Fraser, MI' and looks like a Baby Browning.  Is this the same as the 'Fraser' or B/B mentioned above?  Internally?  

   Richard

[chopprs]

Yepper!

   Neato isn't it?

[rjtravel]

Yeppers - it are.

[bill_deshivs]

I have thrown unloaded Brownings and Bauers onto carpeted floors many, many times. I have never had one fail. There must have been something wrong with yours. I forgot about the Fraser!

[stungun]

"LOL, glad you are good at Duck Hunt! :-)

   

   About the Jennings, the last time I held one it was a Single action gun. Did they change something?"

   

   -- posted by Chopprs

   

   ======================

   

   The DA gun I got was the Bersa Firestorm 22LR.

   

   I fancy 22s for some strange reason...

   

   Leave the Bersa unchambered... then as soon as I pull the slide back, it shoots SA every shot; as opposed to cocked & locked, where the first shoot needs to go "up" and the rest are "down".

   

   Works good for the Jennings since it's a piece of crap.

   

   Works OK for the S&W Sigma, even if the trigger pull *is* 12 lbs... but probly not necessary.

   

   There are certainly times when one might not want their guns loaded, and that's in the presence of children.  With children, I would have my doubts about a chambered Sigma around... but I *definitely* would NOT allow a chambered Glock anywhere remotely near any children and quite a few adults, even.

   

   Anyway... this thread is getting tiresome.

   

   I've seen enough people not treat guns with respect, so I have to stay one step ahead of them... and it's actually beneficial for reasons I've stated above, with DA guns.

[rjtravel]

Just stripped our Bauer .25 auto and really looked at it for the first time.  Wow!  Not much to prevent a discharge in the event it is jarred or dropped.  One might be able to throw it on a carpet as mentioned, but that is far from a metal or concrete surface.  Chamber stoked? - nope, not for me.

   Richard

[bill_deshivs]

Here is a hint- guns are DANGEROUS!

[rjtravel]

Further elucidation...guns handled and/or carried carelessly and recklessly are infinitely more dangerous.  Be safe.

[chopprs]

"Guns are dangerous"

   

   That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. You could stab someone in the eye with a pencil or hit them on the head with a rock. I suppose pencils and rocks are dangerous as well?!?!?

   The TRUTH is PEOPLE are dangerous. Yes PEOPLE that have no clue what they are doing or PEOPLE that do not take the time and or thought to be safe.......

   Any inanimate object in and of itself does not have the power to create a situation. It must be influenced by another force. Sorry, this is basic physics!

[sirbarkalot]

QUOTE:

   "I have thrown unloaded Brownings and Bauers onto carpeted floors many, many times. I have never had one fail. There must have been something wrong with yours. I forgot about the Fraser!"

   

   I have been thinking about this one for a couple of days.  Cand SOMEONE PLEASE explain to me what POSSIBLE circumstances there would be for this??

   

   Why in the WORLD would someone repeatedly throw unloaded guns onto the floor???

   

   Now in Glock school, the first thing the factory instructor does is "wall check" (his term, not mine) a glock and toss it around to show how durable it is.  But Glocks are made of Tupperware by Mattel and are made for military recruits and all they do to them, so to demonstrate with a FACTORY SUPPLIED sample (that they later shoot to prove it still works) makes some sense to demonstrated a point.  But to throw steel Brownings and Bauers onto the floor makes me wonder if it is the guns that are dangerous or the fools in possession of them.

   

   Please, someone enlighten me.  My mind is open and wanting to learn.

   

   Barky

[chopprs]

Some people do ridiculous things with guns that they just should not for any reason. Some people say ridiculous things about guns that they just should not. It is sphincters like this that give the anti-gun nuts ammunition when they want to take our guns away. They make us ALL look bad!  

   I am sure that Chuck Schumer (SEVERE New York anti gun nut and Democrat) would just LOVE to know that someone has repeatedly thrown their firearm at the floor in attempt to make it do something, just what I am dumbfounded to understand........

   Why should someone that acts in this manner with a firearm be allowed to have a gun??

   This is a question that they would ask and their answer is that people like this are unsafe so they should take all of our guns away and keep us safe.

[coinchop]

I think the government has a dept. where

   they drop guns to see if they are safe.

   Looks like they started a trend.

   The thing is to drop a gun that is not

   loaded on to a carpeted floor and have it

   fire on an empty chamber would be a good

    first step showing you owned a peice  

   of shi)). I have never done that, but  

   some people like too experiment.

[bill_deshivs]

Chopprs is correct. I should have said "Handling guns is dangerous. Be careful."

   Now, as far as being called an asshole, I take offense. I have attacked no one here.

   In case you can't figure this out, I was testing guns under controlled circumstances to see exactly how safe they were. I can promise you that I have more PROFESSIONAL experience with guns than most people here.

[canis]

Bill knows what he is talking about. He has been an ongoing presence on several other wide-ranging and comprehensive gun forums for many years.  

   

   He has not drunk the Kool-Aid that so many in modern gun culture have.

   

   Try listening to what he is saying instead of how he says it.

   

   Striker fired guns have been around for over a century. Our forefathers did not drop like flies with random muffled gunshots ringing out at random times throughout a normal day due to their concealed pocket pistols failing.

   

   I have not posted on this board since the great username loss of a while ago. Looks like we have a whole new crew of experts here rattling cages and ringing bells...

[redhawk4]

Personally I think carrying any gun cocked and locked is less than ideal for the "civilian" who hopefully will never deploy their gun in anger. It's different for a Policeman or similar who is going into harms way on a daily basis.

   

   IMO carrying a gun for years with mechanical parts under pressure is unecessary unless it's the only gun you have and you want it that way. Israeli draw etc. whatever works for whoever is fine, personally I'd rather carry a gun such as the Guardian 380, a double action revolver or even my Beretta 9mm, just because I prefer everything in a state of rest while I'm carrying, or it's on the nightstand or temporarily locked in my safe.

   

   I have carried my 1911 cocked and locked and it's design certainly intended that to be done. I just prefer not to, other than the couple of occasions I've carried it when I was expecting trouble, more than usual. When I don't feel I need such a setup, I carry a different handgun.

   

   It seems people are getting a little rude and testy on this thread, but so much of it is down to personal preference and what you feel comfortable with, that it's even worse than a caliber pissing contest.

   

   Carry what you are comfortable with in the manner you are comfortable with, and if the popcorn hits the fan you'll be confident in your weapon and your abilities and thats what will work best for you.

[chopprs]

Bill, you did not say you were professionally testing guns. You merely said you were throwing them at the ground, no reasoning mentioned. This would obviously be ridiculous. What I said still stands although perhaps not applied to you, in this case since you are a "PROFESSIONAL" Handgun Floor Thrower!

   I seriously feel there are way too many people that have firearms that should not because they do ridiculous things with them. They point them at eachother and giggle like it is a joke and wave them around as if they are five years old with a cap gun. I can not even begin to count how many people I have taken guns away from that were doing stupid things with them, usually at the range. When clueless idiots buy a gun they usually take them to the range and bring all of their idiot friends.  

   I also feel that a cheap striker fired gun in no way should be carried with one in the tube. This I KNOW from personal experience, as stated.

   

   I am curious though Bill, who were you testing the guns for?

[silvershooter]

It seems to me that just as in other aspects of life some people view the risk/reward equation as more balanced in one direction or the other. The risk being accidental discharge, the reward being quicker at defending your life. With such serious consequences as pre-mature death no wonder people have strong opinions. "Cocked and locked"...not for me. If I chose to invest time in training and becoming more familiar with that method perhaps I would like it. And for those that safely carry weapons that way I hold no hard feelings. As long as the weapon is pointed down and not toward me, I can go about my way.  

   One case for revolvers and DAO semi-autos: A few years ago the local news showed security video of a young woman in a clothing store I think. She was a cashier or something and when a BG came in with a gun to rob the place she reached into her purse and pulled out her own gun. She could be seen pointed it at the criminal and trying to shoot without effect. Unfortunately, in the stressful moment and probably due to lack of practice, she couldn't remember how to take the safety off.  

   

   I like safeties on many guns, but they can be a liability. The same goes for not having a round in the chamber. If I'm seated in my car or at an atm and a dude surprises me I could see it going like this: I'll be trying to deflect his weapon or body/hands with my left hand....while my right hand is bringing my own gun up into the fight. I can't imagine being able to chamber a round with one hand while fighting with the other. I also can't imaging carrying an inexpensive gun cocked in my pocket or waistband. That's the great thing about guardians and NAA revolvers: they can be carried safely fully loaded and brought into action with one hand.

[heyjoe]

When i said i didnt feel comfortable with carrying the baby browning with one in the chamber it is in reference to accidentally dropping it and the striker being knocked loose and firing. The lip on that sear is tiny. People drop guns, it happens, everyone makes a mistake at one time or another. Everyone has fumbled something they were attempting to grab or carry in their hands. I just dont feel comfortable with it. I have no problems carrying any other firearm i own with one in the chamber, such as guardian, seecamp, smith and wesson j and k frames.  

   

   I have seen Bill answer questions people have asked or offered suggestions for people with firearms problems for years now. He has always been a helpful type poster. I dont understand the reaction to him here.

[sirbarkalot]

Heyjoe:

   

   I suspect it is the boastful bearing and the intolerance to other ideas, and his aura of self importance that has set a few off.  No one appreciates being talked down to, even by a self proclaimed "expert"; and he may be.  The true experts I have run into in my life have been humble and non-assuming and let their actions and results speak for them, leaving the boasting and personal attacks when someone disagrees with them to others.

   

   The most knowledgable people have learned one thing for certain; and that is that they don't know everything.

   

   One of the physicists that I often see on television talking about new discovery has said that the more we learn about the universe, the more we find out that we don't know, and the more questions they have.

   

   I could be wrong, but I suspect that is the reason he is getting less than the respect he seems to feel he deserves.............

   

   There are a LOT of people on this board with a lot of experience and knowledge, some we know very little about.  This thread started out as an inquiry about the safety of cheap guns with a live round under the striker.  It turned into an "I am right and you are wrong" dispute, when really it is opinion, and all opinions should be open and let the reader decide.

   

   Barky

[heyjoe]

Barky wrote: "The most knowledgable people have learned one thing for certain; and that is that they don't know everything.

   One of the physicists that I often see on television talking about new discovery has said that the more we learn about the universe, the more we find out that we don't know, and the more questions they have."

   

   very true in my experience. Knowledge and learning lead to more questionsand thirst for more knowledge and understanding.

    With the explosion of information and knowledge since the middle ages, the scope of expertise of people narrows more and more as time goes on. expertize becomes more and more specialized. In the middle ages it was possible to be knowledgable and educated in many diverse  areas.  

   

   I like watching shows about physics and astronomy though i often have trouble getting my mind around some of the concepts that are discussed such as string theory,and its eleven dimensions and parallel universes.

[bill_deshivs]

I don't generally talk down to people, unless they deserve it. I try to help whenever I can, and correct the many mistakes I see posted. I spend a lot of time on a lot of forums, and sometimes I don't explain myself as well as I should, and am short. If I know something is correct, I can be pretty adamant about it. Please don't think I am talking down to people here.

   Now. I was testing these guns for myself, as I carried them. This was way before the Internet. I did a lot of testing and experimentation, and try to convey my experience to others. I probably have owned 95% of the pocket guns made from 1900 to 1990, and have worked on most of the rest. If anyone is interested in learning more about me, visit my web site, http://www.billdeshivs.com">www.billdeshivs.com

[bill_deshivs]

Now, Barky.

   I'm not intolerant of others' ideas. If I happen to know they won't work or are impractical, I will certainly let them know. I have never proclaimed to be a gun expert, though I have more experience than most. Please show me where I have ever personally attacked anyone!

[redhawk4]

"they can be carried safely fully loaded and brought into action with one hand".

   

   Silvershooter, well put, that is the point exactly for me. One hand may be all that's available so I don't want to be racking a slide. There are a number of options that can achieve this with the variety of hand guns available. I still don't think cocked and locked is best, or possibly even advisable, for the average man in the street, DA weapons are better suited to that purpose IMO.

   

   I don't know enough about the Semi Auto Mouse guns to be specific on models, but would certainly not carry anything cocked and locked where I felt there was any danger of a mechanical failure or impact causing a discharge. Firstly, I couldn't do it and feel comfortable, and secondly it would put most of us "average folks" in a position where statistically we are more likely, over time, to shoot ourselves, than get in a postion where we actually need a gun for SD.

   

   I thought the Jennings, Lorcin etc. etc. were all the same gun just manufactured by a new company every so often to avoid warranty claims due to their poor quality, that's why I've always avoided them, that could have been incorrect info that I read, if so, I stand corrected.

   

   Other than usually any gun is better than no gun, I do think we owe it to ourselves to ensure we carry a gun of reasonable quality and reliability. There are situations where pulling out a gun that's not going to work as intended, can get you killed sooner, than if you didn't have one. e.g. jumping into rescue someone else and finding you brought a small metal club to a gunfight, you weren't originally part of.

[rjtravel]

Posted on Friday, October 01, 2010 - 05:28 am:        

   ...Any inanimate object in and of itself does not have the power to create a situation. It must be influenced by another force. Sorry, this is basic physics!

   

   With all of Choppr's advanced training has he never heard of the second law of thermodynamics?  All things break down and degrade - a small inantimate auto with f/p under tension can eventually discharge of its own accord - basic physics.  I'm sure everyone will appreciate this observation.

   

   OK, I'm just feeling mean and finally found something to challenge Chopprs.  Of real importance is the lingering and unanswered question...What about Rat Shot?

   Richard

[stungun]

Redhawk4 wrote:  "... but so much of it is down to personal preference and what you feel comfortable with, that it's even worse than a caliber pissing contest."

   

   Yea... this is worse than a caliber pissing contest.

   

   What's important to remember is that perfect practice makes perfect!!!

   

   I train with an unloaded chamber, so that whenever I need to have one in the chamber, my muscle memory won't forget to double check for me.

   

   - This method works for me, because it *seems* safer... especially with children and other juveniles around.

   - This method works for me, because it works across ALL pistols. (consistency between various makes/models)

   - This method works for me, because it allows more persistent shots than a switch from DA trigger to SA trigger. (consistency of trigger)

   - This method works for me, because regardless of if a pistol is chambered or unchambered, it WILL BE when I need it to be. (consistency of ammo assurance)

   - This method works for me, because most shooters know that their "interface" to the gun, their GRIP, relates more to accuracy than anything else.  Fidgeting with your thumb, leaving only four fingers halfway wrapped around the grip is a bad interface. (consistency of grip)

   - This method works for me, because I'd prefer the challenge of giving the BG a split second to turn into a moving target after he hears me rack the slide.

   

   

   I'll be honest that I have never tried a comparison of these two carry methods, comparing both time to shoot *and* accuracy of the shot... but I will very soon.

   

   My hypothesis is that consistency of the grip will prevail in finding the quicker & more accurate shots... as opposed to a one-handed thumbing of the safety and necessary readjustment of the grip, again.

   

   But ya never know... the design of a gun, and especially the placement of the safety varies from make to model.

   

   And that's why I carry unchambered with the safety off.  

   

   Different strokes for different folks.

[chopprs]

WOW........I mean just HOLY CRAP WOW!!!!.......

   

   "OK, I'm just feeling mean and finally found something to challenge Chopprs"

   

   .......How long have you been looking? (LOL!)

   

   RJ, I am well aware of the laws of thermodynamics and degradation but I am not sure I want to leave a cheapy striker fired gun around for a couple thousand years to see if it goes off. This, as I remember is a THEORY because obviously no one ever lived long enough to prove it. It has been replicated in the lab but there is no REAL proof. Common sense would prevail though that eventually a device will naturally corrode to the point of mechanical failure..... I like a good challenge though, keep looking!

   

   Bill, I am really interested as to why you "call" yourself a PROFESSIONAL. Are you a certified handgun floor thrower??? Where does one acquire such certification? Seriously, I can not imagine anyone with half a brain purposely throwing their own handguns at the floor repeditively and then load and carry them.....and then "PROUDLY" ADMITTING IT IN PUBLIC!!! That is completely ridiculous. I am sorry man but that is likely the most outrageous thing I have ever heard.....WOW! Did you check to see if you broke anything inside the firearm before you loaded 'em up and holstered 'em?

    "I am PROFESSIONALLY throwing my own guns at the floor to see what they will do!" BAWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAhahahahahahaaa.........

   Thanx for the laugh!

   

   

   (Note to self: NEVER by any guns from BD!)

[westerly1965]

Well said Stungun well said.  On a different note since were talking statistics any of you guys that are so pro cocked and lock have any statistics on what the odds are of me being jumped and having only one hand available to pull?  Loaded or unloaded any of you have any stats on statistically what a stupid time that would be to draw a gun anyway?  I mean really if dude jumped me and engages me in hand to hand then he probably doesn't have a gun drawn right?  Therefore I can't shoot him anyway right?  So what would I need my gun for?

[chopprs]

Honestly I think the answer to the question is that if you want to carry a gun with one in the tube than you should go and buy a gun that was designed to do that, like a Kahr or a Glik! If you want to carry a series 80 1911 cocked and locked I see no reason why you could not. I carry mine like that when I carry it. There are several safeties preventing it from firing. The drawback is that in a stressful situation you need to remember how to deactivate the thumb safety. I would rather draw and fire. A provision of the Kahr and Glock.  A cheap striker fired gun such as a Jennings or a Raven is really not a good weapon to bet your life on and I really believe that they should not be used for that due to the lack of quality. Spend a couple bucks and buy a quality firearm is the answer to the original question. One in the tube is fine if it is a good quality gun that was designed to be carried that way. My Primary is a PM9 and I carry it with one in the tube. I have no worries that it will go off. Before I purchased it I did tons of research and reading about it to be sure that what I was trusting my life with would do what I wanted when I wanted it to.  

   These guns are actually tested by "REAL" professionals according to Section 19 of Massachusetts Senate Bill Number 2276 and found to be unable to fire by being dropped by H.P. White Laboratories. This is how one answers his own questions about what to carry. Genuine laboratory results by certified professionals.

   http://www.kahr.com/PA-1B/review_hp_0400.html">http://www.kahr.com/PA-1B/review_hp_0400.html

   

   Here is a copy of the original Baby Browning owners manual. Please pay close attention to item 15 on page 4!!!

   http://media.browning.com/pdf/om/25auto_s.pdf">http://media.browning.com/pdf/om/25auto_s.pdf