Hello I'm new to this forum and I have a question/product suggestion...

[Pfletch83]

I understand that NAA is a handgun manufacturer and that is it's niche.

But Why not add a small caliber self loading rifle or bolt action repeating rifle to your list of products?

If possible in .25NAA and .32NAA?

I feel that if it is possible to do so a rifle in either caliber would be a handy little item to have for close range home defense as well as a small game rifle.

[MR_22]

Welcome to the board!

I would LOVE a .32NAA rifle. I don't think NAA has ever created any rifles, but I like the idea. The .25NAA round seems to have almost died out, unfortunately, but there is a bit of a following for the .32NAA (including myself).

[Pfletch83]

Thanks for the welcome.

I like the little bottle necked cartridge too.

Plus the main Idea is that the muzzle flash and report wouldn't be like a 9mm or larger caliber firearm, and recoil in a rifle length platform would be much like a .22LR only with a larger caliber bullet and better ignition.

[Uncle_Lee]

Welcome fletch,
That is a good idea.
I would take one.
Only problem is that our input don't get put in very far.
The company listens on the problems with the product that is already in the system but not too much on new stuff.

.32 acp mini.
I want a pair of them....

[Pfletch83]

True.

But it could very well increase profit shares as well as increase the use of the two cartridges and be the answer to the rimfire shortage that has been on going on.

That's another advantage to centerfire cartridges, the cases can be re-loaded. where as with rimfire (as much as I love rifles like the 15-22 and well really all rimfire guns) it's pretty much one and done.

The .25 and .32 NAA offer a more reliable alternative that could very well be the dawn of a new era as far as small caliber general use long arms are concerned. 

I mean use the same manual of arms and sighting options as the AR platform only without having to worry about a gas tube or a buffer extension and they should sell like hotcakes at an affordable price.

[Uncle_Lee]

I'll take a stack of 2 with maple syrup, please.

Really, I would grab up on both a .25NAA and a .32NAA long arm as soon as they told me to send the Money Order.

[Pfletch83]

I don't mean to yammer on too much, but both of the little rounds seem to have a lot of potential.

[MR_22]

Both of these rounds have GREAT potential. I have about 200 rounds each of both the Hornady and Corbon .32NAA ammo. Just wanted to make sure I had enough in case they stopped making it. It's been very hard finding any .25NAA ammo anywhere. It didn't seem to take off as well.

[grayelky]

The first question I would ask is, "What void does the 2 discussed calibers fill?"

If a small game rifle were to be developed, in order to be successful, it would need to fill a niche that is currently empty. To accomplish the stated goal(s), I think the .327 Federal would do a much better job than the .32NAA, and will use a more popular caliber, already somewhat better received, and allow the rifle to fire not only the .32 Fed, but also the .32 H&R, .32 S&W Long, .32 S&W and the .32 ACP.  For those who do not hand load, this opens up a huge choice of power levels, giving the shooter the option of picking the load needed for the job at hand. For developmental costs, and start up expense, I think a simple single shot rifle would be ideal for all of the stated goals, with the exception of home defense. The bad news is, there are several companies in position to implement this by simply making the barrel and putting it on an existing action.

While I am in favor of new firearms being brought out by North American Arms, I do not see this being it. If I thought I had a better idea than those suggested in these pages, I assure you I would share it. As to the .32 NAA cartridge, I would love to see Ruger, Taurus and/or KelTec produce the caliber in their "pocket" carry guns. This would give it the boost it needs, and I think, deserves.

[Uncle_Lee]

Wow, just stomp all over my dreams.....
I am going to get depressed and get me another cup of coffee.....

[Pfletch83]

Wow, just stomp all over my dreams.....
I am going to get depressed and get me another cup of coffee.....

Either cartridge could fill the niche of small game rifle and home defense carbine very well.

Both as I stated earlier could answer the problem of the .22lr shortage with the option of reloading the spent brass as well as being more reliable cartridges.

The market is there so is the niche all that remains is creating it and bringing it to market.

Just like years ago when I talked about the .410 as a defensive option, now look at the .410 firearm and ammunition market.

[TwoGunJayne]

I switched to coffee too, Lee. Don't feel bad.

I can't be the only one who wants a slim, trim, miniature mare's leg lever action pistol in .32 NAA. It would be the perfect combo to go with a .32 NAA Guardian. In addition, I have much respect for the concept of this round from say... an 8" or 10" barrel. Don't forget that in the pistol categories that if you add 200 fps with the same bullet weight, you can about double the kinetic energy. KE = (1/2)m*v^2. Velocity affects kinetic energy by exponent of two, then multiplicative. Increasing mass is only multiplicative.

For all pistols, mass is relatively small, and velocity isn't all that large. Rifle/carbine length barrels turn weaksauce 9mm ammo from a pocket piece into a 6" barrel .357 magnum equivalent. That's now an 80-150 yard deer cartridge, if the shooter does his part. I'm not saying "hunt deer with a .32 NAA carbine," but it'd be legal in my state and that .5+ inch expansion is pretty impressive. Those jhps are so pretty when you pull them from the gel. The only question is if the extreme velocity makes the bullet fail and totally fragment in 3 inches. That's still valid for a neck or thin-side skull shot, btw.

[Pfletch83]

I switched to coffee too, Lee. Don't feel bad.

I can't be the only one who wants a slim, trim, miniature mare's leg lever action pistol in .32 NAA. It would be the perfect combo to go with a .32 NAA Guardian. In addition, I have much respect for the concept of this round from say... an 8" or 10" barrel. Don't forget that in the pistol categories that if you add 200 fps with the same bullet weight, you can about double the kinetic energy. KE = (1/2)m*v^2. Velocity affects kinetic energy by exponent of two, then multiplicative. Increasing mass is only multiplicative.

For all pistols, mass is relatively small, and velocity isn't all that large. Rifle/carbine length barrels turn weaksauce 9mm ammo from a pocket piece into a 6" barrel .357 magnum equivalent. That's now an 80-150 yard deer cartridge, if the shooter does his part. I'm not saying "hunt deer with a .32 NAA carbine," but it'd be legal in my state and that .5+ inch expansion is pretty impressive. Those jhps are so pretty when you pull them from the gel. The only question is if the extreme velocity makes the bullet fail and totally fragment in 3 inches. That's still valid for a neck or thin-side skull shot, btw.

A simple change in bullet type or rifling twist would help.

[grayelky]

Now bear in mind I never said I did not like the concept. It just seems to me to not be feasible from a financial standpoint. I can see a nice little blued lever action only slightly larger than a .22 with a tube full of .32 NAA cartridges. Likely no recoil to speak of, and hopefully very accurate. Or something along the lines of a Ruger Number One scaled down....

[cfsharry]

Welcome to the forum.
The simple answer to your question, as grayelky already posted, is that NAA appears to be quite successful in doing what it does best in meeting the needs of it's clientele. To develope a line of rifles, either bolt action or semi-auto, would be costly and bring them into a heads on fight with established brands. To do so with the calibers you are intrigued by would give them no practical and little marketing advantage, (other than the guys who just want something different).

[Pfletch83]

Welcome to the forum.
The simple answer to your question, as grayelky already posted, is that NAA appears to be quite successful in doing what it does best in meeting the needs of it's clientele. To develope a line of rifles, either bolt action or semi-auto, would be costly and bring them into a heads on fight with established brands. To do so with the calibers you are intrigued by would give them no practical and little marketing advantage, (other than the guys who just want something different).

Well they could partner with one of said companies say like Smith&Wesson?

I mean S&W has been putting together AR pattern rifles for awhile and the 15-22 has been a big seller, couldn't hurt to bring out an up scaled 15-22 (or in this case a 15-25/32)

[cfsharry]

What's the point? You would be making a rifle offering no advantage to any cartridge currently available to either the sporting or defense markets.
One thing I have noticed over the years is that a lot of folks have lost a lot of money in the gun business because they thought they had a cool product but never did market research. They spent a lot of effort, time and money and in the end found the pool of buyers to small to give them a return on investment. This, by the way, is true of a lot of business start-ups.

[TwoGunJayne]

The first question I would ask is, "What void does the 2 discussed calibers fill?"

If a small game rifle were to be developed, in order to be successful, it would need to fill a niche that is currently empty. To accomplish the stated goal(s), I think the .327 Federal would do a much better job than the .32NAA, and will use a more popular caliber, already somewhat better received, and allow the rifle to fire not only the .32 Fed, but also the .32 H&R, .32 S&W Long, .32 S&W and the .32 ACP.  For those who do not hand load, this opens up a huge choice of power levels, giving the shooter the option of picking the load needed for the job at hand. For developmental costs, and start up expense, I think a simple single shot rifle would be ideal for all of the stated goals, with the exception of home defense. The bad news is, there are several companies in position to implement this by simply making the barrel and putting it on an existing action.

1. I respect you, gray.
2. .327 is not, will it ever be, a semiauto cartridge. .357 semiauto hacks took many decades to happen because it isn't easy at all. A full rimmed cartridge simply hates being in a magazine-fed semi auto. If I'm incorrect, please post the proper info. I'm not trying to be irate or inflammatory, I just wasn't aware of it being "easy."
3. Invest in ammo. If you have "stock" in a cartridge being produced, then you should be overjoyed that other companies are accepting it by making a conversion barrel.
4. I will eat crow pie and humbly if those rimmed antique cartridges will ever see a semiauto platform. (Specifically, .32 S&W to .327, on and on. Make it even longer one more time, it still will never be a semiauto cartridge without a tube-fed magazine.) That said, make a semiauto tube magazine if you think it's cool. I'd consider getting one if it floated by.

[MR_22]

What's the point? You would be making a rifle offering no advantage to any cartridge currently available to either the sporting or defense markets.
One thing I have noticed over the years is that a lot of folks have lost a lot of money in the gun business because they thought they had a cool product but never did market research. They spent a lot of effort, time and money and in the end found the pool of buyers to small to give them a return on investment. This, by the way, is true of a lot of business start-ups.

This idea might be compared to the new Rock Island Armory rifle coming out in .22TCM. Why would you make a rifle using a ".223 short" round, when you could use use the more popular and more effective .223 itself?

That's a good question, really. Because you can. Because people will buy it. If the first of those works out but the second doesn't, bad idea. But it's also cool that you can use the same caliber in your pistol and your rifle. It's the same reason people like 9mm rifles. That's a GOOD reason to do it.

I'm getting a 22TCM rifle as soon as they become available (and they are late now as it is). I'm not 100% convinced their rifle is going to make it in the marketplace, but I'll have one. I think the round itself, 22TCM, is making it "big enough" in the handgun market, so at least the rifle will still be useful in a few years (hopefully).

[cfsharry]

I agree, the 22TCM might actually be a good carbine cartridge. I'm not saying every innovation is a bad idea, just that the two NAA cartridges referenced in a rifle NAA is being asked to make is a bad idea.
The more I read about the 22 TMC the more intrigued I become. I am just not an early adapter when it comes to guns.

[TwoGunJayne]

One round, many platforms. Perhaps what hamstrung the .25 NAA is nobody saw it as the semi-auto carbine alternative to full-blown .25-06? There was a reason for that round. It was flat shooting as can be and still hit awfully hard. It's kind of tough to believe that an early 1900's cartridge could have been so perfect. Remington and others made all kinds of rifles around it. ..but what happened?

Whether or not a cartridge and platform combo are perfect for this or that, doesn't meant that the "fine" consumers will realize the benefits.

If I offered you a full-size pistol cartridge that could achive three times the bullet diameter in expansion and 8 times the permanent wound channel of the bullet caliber, doesn't that sound fantastic? What if I said you could do it from a pocket pistol? Hmm. Well, WTH did you want it to do, anyway?

So why was it again that people didn't convert the war surplus m1 Garand .30-06 in droves to the .25-06? Hmm.

The game's not so simple, is it? Firstly, it's a pain to convert a Garand in any single way for starters, even bullet weights and powder charges. That is, assuming you have one of the later adjustable gas block versions...

Not just a re-barrel job... You break the rifle just changing cartridge loadings. That's why the Garand people jump up and down and scream "M2 ball ONLY" so often.

[Pfletch83]

I agree, the 22TCM might actually be a good carbine cartridge. I'm not saying every innovation is a bad idea, just that the two NAA cartridges referenced in a rifle NAA is being asked to make is a bad idea.
The more I read about the 22 TMC the more intrigued I become. I am just not an early adapter when it comes to guns.

How long has the .22 TMC cartridge been around?

It has a carbine chambered for it, why then shouldn't the .25 or .32 NAA have a carbine chambered for them?

Not to sound like an ultra nationalist, but it would be a U.S. made cartridge with a U.S. made rifle.



Plus the two NAA cartridges have been around and in use for longer than the aforementioned caliber.

[cfsharry]

It has a carbine chambered for it, why then shouldn't the .25 or .32 NAA have a carbine chambered for them?

It is said there is no such thing as a stupid question. That particular query may have proven the adage incorrect.

[Pfletch83]

It has a carbine chambered for it, why then shouldn't the .25 or .32 NAA have a carbine chambered for them?

It is said there is no such thing as a stupid question. That particular query may have proven the adage incorrect.

I asked several questions FYI.

And I haven't said anything to try to insult you. Why do you feel need to insult me?

[cfsharry]

You're right. I apologise. The question was not stupid just not very intelligent.
If you are going to come to a gunny site and you yourself lack knowlege about guns, (your questions pretty much indicate you are a newbie), then it might be helpful if you appeared willing to listen rather than to just argue your point or respond in a positive fashion only to statements that seem to agree with your preconceptions.
At any rate I have given my opinion to your origional question. Do with it what you will.

[MR_22]

Hey Pfletch83, some people here get a little cantankerous sometimes, but we're a good group of guys (and gals)--usually, anyway. And yet sometimes it may help to do what I learned as a Mormon Missionary in Massachusetts in the mid 80': if you're arguing with someone who will NEVER EVER change their mind, you're wasting your time and it's time to move on to somebody else.

Anyway, as someone who is getting a TCM rifle as soon as they come out (and LITERALLY from the first batch, as I won one of them in a contest from factory), I think rifles in bottlenecked pistol cartridges are a cool idea.

And cfsharry, the 22TCM is not as old as the .32NAA and .25NAA. I think the first the public knew about the .22TCM was when ARMSCOR introduced it at the 2012 SHOT Show. It MIGHT be older than that (aside from internal research), but not much.

[Pfletch83]

You're right. I apologise. The question was not stupid just not very intelligent.
If you are going to come to a gunny site and you yourself lack knowlege about guns, (your questions pretty much indicate you are a newbie), then it might be helpful if you appeared willing to listen rather than to just argue your point or respond in a positive fashion only to statements that seem to agree with your preconceptions.
At any rate I have given my opinion to your origional question. Do with it what you will.

Not trying to insult here...

But I've been a firearms owner and tinkerer for a long while.

My questions might make me sound like a newbie toward firearms, but that isn't the case.

The only thing I'm really new to are the cartridges I've been asking about as well as a possible long gun that can make use of them.

All that would need to be figured out is the correct twist rate for a 16.5 inch barrel in the calibers talked about.

[OV-1D]

Hey Pfletch83, some people here get a little cantankerous sometimes, but we're a good group of guys (and gals)--usually, anyway. And yet sometimes it may help to do what I learned as a Mormon Missionary in Massachusetts in the mid 80': if you're arguing with someone who will NEVER EVER change their mind, you're wasting your time and it's time to move on to somebody else.

Anyway, as someone who is getting a TCM rifle as soon as they come out (and LITERALLY from the first batch, as I won one of them in a contest from factory), I think rifles in bottlenecked pistol cartridges are a cool idea.

And cfsharry, the 22TCM is not as old as the .32NAA and .25NAA. I think the first the public knew about the .22TCM was when ARMSCOR introduced it at the 2012 SHOT Show. It MIGHT be older than that (aside from internal research), but not much.

Thats the same idea vaccum salesmen use , oh those gold plated Kirbys . 

[Uncle_Lee]

It has a carbine chambered for it, why then shouldn't the .25 or .32 NAA have a carbine chambered for them?

It is said there is no such thing as a stupid question. That particular query may have proven the adage incorrect.

I asked several questions FYI.

And I haven't said anything to try to insult you. Why do you feel need to insult me?

'


Because that is what harry does.
That is why he is watched.

[OV-1D]

 It takes all kinds to make the world go around sometimes a square corner is something we walk into . Go around and keep smiling .

[boone123]

Same dream, new dreamer.
Some want a new rifle, Uncle Lee wants some 32 Minis, and I want a cannon that fits in a holster, and time marches on.
The market dictats what we get, and some of us are just SOL...
Life is GREAT!!!

[TwoGunJayne]

Same dream, new dreamer.
Some want a new rifle, Uncle Lee wants some 32 Minis, and I want a cannon that fits in a holster, and time marches on.
The market dictats what we get, and some of us are just SOL...
Life is GREAT!!!

http://www.pocketartillery.com/


Hey Fletch, stick around. Newbie or not. Talk about some guns. Now and then you'll run into a "hater." They will "hate," as they say.

You think that's bad, wait until you see Demoncrat spy show up and ask us why we think we need magazines or something. Those guys don't get far.

[boone123]

  TwoGun-                      Who is a hater? To disagree with someones thinking does not make anyone a hater.
The post I made had not a d---- thing to do with hate. I was thinking humor. Sorry if it was to deep for you. If Pflech wants somebody to make him a couple of rifles, so who cares? If he didn't want anybody to respond, then he shouldn't have brought it up. There is quite a difference between hate and humor, check it out.
Also, no hate towards Lee, as anybody thats as hung up on 32 minis as he is, has to be a little funny.

[TeeJay37]

Slightly off topic, but I'd love to see the .32NAA barrels in things like the KelTec, LCP and TCP. I'd sure buy one for my LCP. If Glock ever makes a US available .380, I'm sure Lone Wolf would/could work something up.

[TwoGunJayne]

  TwoGun-                      Who is a hater? To disagree with someones thinking does not make anyone a hater.
The post I made had not a d---- thing to do with hate. I was thinking humor. Sorry if it was to deep for you. If Pflech wants somebody to make him a couple of rifles, so who cares? If he didn't want anybody to respond, then he shouldn't have brought it up. There is quite a difference between hate and humor, check it out.
Also, no hate towards Lee, as anybody thats as hung up on 32 minis as he is, has to be a little funny.

I really don't know! People seem to be getting mad or something and I don't understand it. Guess I missed out. No offense intended to anybody. Ah well. Hopefully, I didn't do it.