Sidewinder vs. Pug

[glockman23]

Should I upgrade?  Honestly I'll probably keep both... but the Sidewinder might be a good option for a discreet carry if I can't pack the Seecamp/Pug combo. 

Almost twice as long a barrel- might see some expansion out of the new .22 mag rounds out there.  I think the extra grip might be nice to have in an SD situation.  What's the MSRP running on these guys?

[45flint]

The Sidewinder is the best short barrel gun they make now, that simple.  Best lockup of any NAA besides the Ranger.  Price may keep the other guns like the Pug viable but long term they are going to be Sidewinder challenged.

[Goatpacker]

The Sidewinder is the best short barrel gun they make now, that simple.  Best lockup of any NAA besides the Ranger.  Price may keep the other guns like the Pug viable but long term they are going to be Sidewinder challenged.

Please explain what you mean by "best" lockup?

[grayelky]

Glockman23-
You have me confused, but then, I am old and it is easier than it used to be.
You wrote: Almost twice as long a barrel- Both the Sidewinder and the Pug have 1" barrels, currently.

You wrote: the extra grip might be nice The difference in the grips is miniscule. It is more a matter of texture.

You wrote: What's the MSRP running on these guys?
Pug: $314:   w/ tritium sight $334  http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/minis/pugs-1.html
SW: $349;    w/ LR cylinder $419    http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/sidewinder.html

You also asked about upgrading. Which one do you have now? For my $.02 worth, the Pug w/ trit sight is the better of the 2 you mentioned for potential SD, due to the Tritium sight. Without it, they are a toss up. If you will do a lot of shooting with it, the SW picks up an edge for convienence at reloading, but I would go with the trit sight even then.

[45flint]

The Sidewinder is the best short barrel gun they make now, that simple.  Best lockup of any NAA besides the Ranger.  Price may keep the other guns like the Pug viable but long term they are going to be Sidewinder challenged.

Please explain what you mean by "best" lockup?

Lockup to me is the how much play is in the cylinder, and thus possible widened gap between cylinder and barrel.  The Sidewinder and the Ranger exhibited no play at all, the old style cylinders exhibited some normal play. 

[45flint]

Glockman23-
You have me confused, but then, I am old and it is easier than it used to be.
You wrote: Almost twice as long a barrel- Both the Sidewinder and the Pug have 1" barrels, currently.

You wrote: the extra grip might be nice The difference in the grips is miniscule. It is more a matter of texture.

You wrote: What's the MSRP running on these guys?
Pug: $314:   w/ tritium sight $334  http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/minis/pugs-1.html
SW: $349;    w/ LR cylinder $419    http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/sidewinder.html

You also asked about upgrading. Which one do you have now? For my $.02 worth, the Pug w/ trit sight is the better of the 2 you mentioned for potential SD, due to the Tritium sight. Without it, they are a toss up. If you will do a lot of shooting with it, the SW picks up an edge for convienence at reloading, but I would go with the trit sight even then.

Grayelky I greatly respect you but the value of tritium sights on a one inch barrel escapes me.  These are close quarter guns where sights usage will be probably non existent?   The value of the blast shields with their very safe indexing capability adds greater value.

[heyjoe]

for self defense i really dont see any difference between the sidewinder and the pug. since you will be maximum 8 feet away or less sights dont really matter in my opinion. you also arent going to have the time required to reload either the pug or the sidewinder in any kind of a common self defense situation. it is actually much faster to carry an extra cylinder and reload the pug than it is to reload the sidewinder. another reason to get a convertible model. i like the sidewinder but i dont think that it is going to knock the other models out of the box. its not as easy to reload as larger sized guns with swing out cylinders.

[45flint]

for self defense i really dont see any difference between the sidewinder and the pug. since you will be maximum 8 feet away or less sights dont really matter in my opinion. you also arent going to have the time required to reload either the pug or the sidewinder in any kind of a common self defense situation. it is actually much faster to carry an extra cylinder and reload the pug than it is to reload the sidewinder. another reason to get a convertible model. i like the sidewinder but i dont think that it is going to knock the other models out of the box. its not as easy to reload as larger sized guns with swing out cylinders.

Reloading to me is that same as the better sites, not going to happen in a self defense mode, (switch cylinders?) not important.  The Sidewinder to me is just a slightly better machined gun, with all the current innovations that makes sense, swing out cylinder, and indexed blast shield.  Is is worth the slight increase over the Pug, yes.
Steve

[heyjoe]

many people feel better carrying extra magazines, speed loaders, speed strips or even loose rounds for a potential reload in a self defense situation even though they would most likely never get to reload. the reload on a pug with an extra cylinder is much faster than the reload of a sidewinder.  the blast shield doesnt enter into the calculation for me. its nice that its there but it isnt something i worried about before.

[45flint]

many people feel better carrying extra magazines, speed loaders, speed strips or even loose rounds for a potential reload in a self defense situation even though they would most likely never get to reload. the reload on a pug with an extra cylinder is much faster than the reload of a sidewinder.  the blast shield doesnt enter into the calculation for me. its nice that its there but it isnt something i worried about before.

so you feel better carrying an extra cylinder you will never use, and leaving off a indexing shield you will use every time you load your gun?  just because you didn't worry about it before doesn't mean its not a worthy improvement.  Your changes of discharging your gun in loading are probably far greater than ever using your gun in anger?

[cfsharry]

Intellectually I know that I will never have need to draw and fire my weapon under dire threat. Intellectually I know that should the need arise to do so I will probably never need to reload.
Intellectually I don't care. When I feel it necessary to carry I always have at least one spare magazine, most often two. That is my comfort zone.

[heyjoe]

i would never use my gun in anger.

i dont usually carry a spare magazine or speed loader now that im not carrying for work. if i carry the 1 1/8 magnum i carry a spare cylinder because the pouch is built into the pocket holster.  many people want to and feel better carrying a quick reload no matter what gun they are carrying. we are talking about ccw here not range or plinking.

I would think for a number of people a faster reload would be more important than a blast shield. for myself the importance of a blast shield on a mini revolver is next to nil.

i thought i would like the sidewinder more than i do. i actually prefer the ranger and the removable cylinder minis over the sidewinder.

[boone123]

If I want more than my evey day carry gun, I just carry another gun. Thats the great thing about NAA minis. That pretty much covers my everyday life. If I am going into the unknown, and I feel the need, I could add  a 32 Auto, or maybe a Smith J-frame.
I live in a pretty safe enviornment, but I don't always stay there.

[grayelky]

I agree with both of you: the sights are of minimum value. Since most SD situations occur in low light or darkness, the trit sight has a very slight advantage. The overwhelming majority of the time, it will be a point and shoot, over in seconds situation. A part of me would like to see the recoil shield brought into use across the mini line. Another part knows of no instance in the past where it would have been a benefit, aside from peace of mind. While it is very little, they do add weight and, as mentioned, no advantage aside from peace of mind. As to indexing, it is extremely simple with a fluted cylinder to glance and know if it is in a safe carry position: if you see a flute next to the top strap, the hammer is on a loaded round. In the odd event some separation happens during an encounter, the trit sight will enable you to locate the front sight, and make a better shot. I do agree this will likely not be an issue, it is just my line of thinking.

I own a couple of Sidewinders. I can see the advantage of not having to hold the cylinder and pin while reloading. If the mini is used for plinking, this will be an advantage. For me, it is not, as the only mini I own I plink with is my 3" Earl. My minis are my, "Excuse me while I go to the truck and get my gun" gun. It is rare a mini is the only gun I carry.

We're discussing 2 guns, both are over $300.00. The reality of if is a base 22 mag will fill the role of a SD gun just as well, and leave over $90.00 for practice ammo. And, yes it includes the ones I use as well.

[OV-1D]

  Well movie goers I'm coming in with my two cents , if after having to shoot 1-2 or 3 rounds max. (with a mini for sure) and the situation is not defused I suggest making oneself very inconspicuous and or invisible along with calling 911 hoping they are very close for bailout . Wearing track shoes for us older guys would be no help which would have helped before things started going south . This is a paid political announcement brought to you by the Republican party who seem to have better sense in the long run .   

[Dinadan]

This has been a good thread: a lot of good points made here. My thoughts are:

I have a Sidewinder and a Pug, I would say that one is as good as the other for pocket carry and self defense. I like the tritium sights, but somehow I just do not see myself calmly drawing a bead on the bad guy be it day or night.

Grey - the Sidewinder does have a longer barrel in spite of the specification which NAA stubbornly refuses to correct.

I agree that reloading in a self defense situation just is not going to happen. Therefore a person should carry at least two guns, minis or otherwise. Yes I carry an extra five rounds anyway.

[45flint]

Lockup!?
Blast shields!
Indexing!

Are you guys kidding me?  Love the thought that blast shields add weight!! 

[heyjoe]

steady as you go flint. various tastes make the world an interesting place.

[45flint]

sorry!!

[bud]

My fear is the time that I will need a gun, I will have forgot one, OR it is back at the car. I ALWAYS carry a mini or my Diamonback, S&W .32 I frame, or Maybe a Ruger LCR. The other day I went shopping with my wife and forgot to  put one in my pocket. Haven't done that in a LONG time, but I did it and when I realized it, I felt weird without it.   

[grayelky]

Dinadan wrote:
Grey - the Sidewinder does have a longer barrel in spite of the specification which NAA stubbornly refuses to correct.
Kinda hard to argue with your graph paper, huh? Good job, by the way.

45flint wrote:
Love the thought that blast shields add weight!!
I said it was very little!     (  )

[45flint]

Dinadan wrote:
Grey - the Sidewinder does have a longer barrel in spite of the specification which NAA stubbornly refuses to correct.
Kinda hard to argue with your graph paper, huh? Good job, by the way.

45flint wrote:
Love the thought that blast shields add weight!!
I said it was very little!     (  )

Ate too much leftover Turkey yesterday, was going through a protein rush!!  I've calmed down today.   Steve

[nastruck]

I know that I'm still one of the newer guys here but I have thought what I'd do if the situation ever came that I felt the need to draw my weapon. I don't think any of us would react the way we think we would. It would be a life changing event! The decision to point your weapon at another person and take that persons life would have to be made in a nanosecond and if that happens life as you know it will no longer exist. I don't believe you will have the time to think about reloading or a second gun or much of anything else. It will not be the shootout at OK coral, some may fantasize about!!!! 

[45flint]

http://naaminis.com/smf/index.php?topic=4352.0

Good thread to read when I tried to talk about SW's lockup.

[grayelky]

Dinadan wrote:
Grey - the Sidewinder does have a longer barrel in spite of the specification which NAA stubbornly refuses to correct.
Kinda hard to argue with your graph paper, huh? Good job, by the way.

45flint wrote:
Love the thought that blast shields add weight!!
I said it was very little!     (  )

Ate too much leftover Turkey yesterday, was going through a protein rush!!  I've calmed down today.   Steve

45flint- No issues. Feel safe to go eat more turkey and then post!
Maybe there is a terminology communication issue here. You say "lock up" but the thread you post speaks to barrel-cylinder gap. Lock-up refers to how close the cylinder is aligned with the barrel at the point the cartridge fires. Most people will grasp the cylinder and try to rotate it to see how much play is there. The object is to see if the cylinder will actually align with the barrel, or if it is out of "adjustment" enough to keep the bullet from being in perfect alignment with the barrel, thus causing some lead from the bullet to be shaved off, commonly refered to as "spitting" lead. The more  correct way to check this is by cocking the hammer, releasing it with the trigger and hold the trigger without releasing it (the hammer can be dropped as in firing, or lowered with the other thumb). This puts the gun in actual lock up that would occur at firing. Now the cylinder can be rotated and a determination made if the rotation is enough to possibly allow the gun to fire with out being in correct cylinder-barrel alignment.

The thread you refer to deals with the gap between the cylinder and barrel. In "normal", "full sized" revolvers, this is typically between .002 and .006. (I do not know if the gap is the same for NAAs.) If this gap is too much, you get gas leakage and performance will suffer, as can accuracy. You may also notice more powder residue.

[Goatpacker]

What Gray is saying is right on!!!

[RogueTS1]

I think the advantage of the Pug's sights, especially the front sight, is being overlooked by most here. It matters little how close or far one is when it comes to these sights for they are not designed to be super accurate, though they are when used properly. They are designed to increase one's speed getting on target, especially up close.

They are fashioned after the big game sights used on African safari guns. When time is short because a lion or a water buffalo or bull elephant just came rushing out of the trees; simply raise the gun, place the big dot on target and squeeze. No matter how you cut it one should be at least slightly faster with these sights. If one can quickly point and shoot the Sidewinder with its post sight then that same one should be at least slightly faster and a bit more accurate in a pinch with the Big Dot sight.

[45flint]

Dinadan wrote:
Grey - the Sidewinder does have a longer barrel in spite of the specification which NAA stubbornly refuses to correct.
Kinda hard to argue with your graph paper, huh? Good job, by the way.

45flint wrote:
Love the thought that blast shields add weight!!
I said it was very little!     (  )

Ate too much leftover Turkey yesterday, was going through a protein rush!!  I've calmed down today.   Steve

45flint- No issues. Feel safe to go eat more turkey and then post!
Maybe there is a terminology communication issue here. You say "lock up" but the thread you post speaks to barrel-cylinder gap. Lock-up refers to how close the cylinder is aligned with the barrel at the point the cartridge fires. Most people will grasp the cylinder and try to rotate it to see how much play is there. The object is to see if the cylinder will actually align with the barrel, or if it is out of "adjustment" enough to keep the bullet from being in perfect alignment with the barrel, thus causing some lead from the bullet to be shaved off, commonly refered to as "spitting" lead. The more  correct way to check this is by cocking the hammer, releasing it with the trigger and hold the trigger without releasing it (the hammer can be dropped as in firing, or lowered with the other thumb). This puts the gun in actual lock up that would occur at firing. Now the cylinder can be rotated and a determination made if the rotation is enough to possibly allow the gun to fire with out being in correct cylinder-barrel alignment.

The thread you refer to deals with the gap between the cylinder and barrel. In "normal", "full sized" revolvers, this is typically between .002 and .006. (I do not know if the gap is the same for NAAs.) If this gap is too much, you get gas leakage and performance will suffer, as can accuracy. You may also notice more powder residue.

I am sure you are correct.  I used the term to described both the gap and the rigidity of the cylinder in the gun after cocking  I just found the Ranger and the SW to be much better than my Earls which I assume are like other pin release NAA.  The Earl exhibit some play and my Ranger and SW non.  I think it comes from having to be more precise when you have cylinders that stay on the gun with some mechanism.