Effective self defense range of 1-1/8" barrel mag?

[Twitch]

Hello,

New 1-1/8" 22 mag owner here.

Can anyone tell me what the maximum effective range is of the 1-1/8" barrel mag while using something like 40 gr Gold Dots or 45 gr Hornady?  All the tests I've seen are done at very short distances to the target.   Will adequate penetration take place at 5 yards or even longer?  How far away would you trust adequate penetration assuming you're on target?

Thanks for any input!

[grayelky]

First, WELCOME!

The limiting distance is that of the shooter. Since these are designed to be "up close and personal" self defense weapons, it is a little unusual for them to get tested at any distance. I would not hesitate to use mine at 10 yards. The ammo you named is the same that I carry.

You may find if you forget the front sight and aim down the top of the frame you will hit closer to point of aim, and you can shoot respectable size groups.

[Javier C.]

As with any firearm, the more you practice, the more proficient you become. 
For me, 10 to 15 feet is pretty much the best I can do with mine.  However, that needs to take into account that I'm a senior citizen and my eyesight is not what it used to be 15 years ago.  I also have more difficulty really controlling a small pistol or revolver than I do larger ones because of ergonomics of my hands versus the sizes and shapes of different grips.  For that reason, I chose to purchase the .22 Mag with the holster/grip, which when deployed,  becomes a larger grip than the normal NAA 'birds head' grips.

[dk]

I'd say 15 to 20 feet would be the average but it all depends on the situation.

[Uncle_Lee]

I doubt if I will ever be in a shoot out at 20 yards.
That is a pretty long distance and might not hold up in court (if I did hit the moving bad guy with my mini) as self defense.

I would hold self defense distance at 20 feet and under.

That brings to mind another thing.
Always carry at least two means of protection.
Because if you are in a position where you have to use your gun in self defense, you will probably loose the weapon until after all court cases involving it are over.
Even if it was a justifiable shooting, the cops are going to take your gun in as evidence and you are going to be left defenseless until you get back home and get another. 
You might not get your mini (Glock, Kimber, Ruger, Kel-Tec or what ever) for a month or maybe two years. Even then it might get "lost" in the evidence locker.

It might be different where you live but that is the way it is around here.

Mileage may vary.

      

[redhawk4]

There are a number of factors here, people's abilities with small pistols vary considerably, but it  is possible to hit  somewhere in the center of mass out to quite some distance with one of the mini variations, I know I've scored hits at 20+ yards at the range. Considering the caliber and muzzle velocity it's going to be getting less effective with longer range, but I think Uncle Lee nails the real issue which is it that the range is sufficient for circumstances where you could legitimately use the gun for self defense, barring some kind of  shootout, where someone starts shooting at you from 25 yards out,  in which case armed with only a mini, taking cover and only shooting, if necessary, when someone closed right in, or running away would be the best options.

I would say 30 feet or less is the likely range.

[G50AE]

That brings to mind another thing.
Always carry at least two means of protection.
Because if you are in a position where you have to use your gun in self defense, you will probably loose the weapon until after all court cases involving it are over.
Even if it was a justifiable shooting, the cops are going to take your gun in as evidence and you are going to be left defenseless until you get back home and get another. 
You might not get your mini (Glock, Kimber, Ruger, Kel-Tec or what ever) for a month or maybe two years. Even then it might get "lost" in the evidence locker.

It might be different where you live but that is the way it is around here.

Mileage may vary.

Sounds about par for the course in most jurisdictions.

I have always been an advocate of carrying a backup gun, hence my liking of NAA's product line.

[dk]

Uncle lee you make a good point I have seen are Departments hold the weapons up to a year!

[gunfitrip]

These firearms are accurate out to significant distances.  But, your topic is effective self defense range of short barreled mag. Probably arm's distance and quickly delivered. A .22 either LR or mag are both serious self defense rounds in my opinion, especially up close.  The stats tend to support that.  One of the great aspects of these weapons is you can get them in your hand while in your pocket and ready for presentation without anyone knowing.  Surprise is a great benefit of these. Maximum effective range is another question.  These weapons are accurate with practice for me out to 100 yards.  My buddy and I spend time shooting a black widow and his Mag at about 30 yards quite frequently at small sticks and such on the burm behind the 25 yard targets at the range we visit every Friday a.m.  This morning the only firearm I shot was my Black Widow.  I had a S&W 617 with me.  That tells you how much fun I was having with the Black Widow. I carry it for all around fun and protection. It is more accurate with the Mag cylinder.

[Rapalyea]

The velocity of the round carries a lot further then many of us can shoot. A muzzel velocity of 1000 ft/sec will derease by 10-20 percent at 100 yards.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rimfire_ballistics_table.htm

I remember the .22 LR High Standard Derringer I inherited. It had two barrels, each with its own peculiarities, plus a very rough 12bl trigger pull. None-the-less, after 4,000 rounds I was able to get 6 rounds out of ten into a piece of typing paper at 50ft. These little guns are much better, but you will need to practice a lot to be effective at anything much more then two arms length. But it can be done.

Here is how I did it. Put the first target ten feet away with four inch circles. You can see where the rounds hit as you shoot but it is not so much aiming as quick shoot. Once you get almost all rounds into the four inch circle move the target a few feet out and repeat. I did this with that derringer. It took me 4000 rounds, but I could put the hurt on a bad guy at 50ft. With progressive practice these guns could do a lot more then that.

However, the effective range is just about what you can shoot. I would work on room distances as a practical matter. After a lot of shooting you will know what distances you can reliably hit. Me? haw haw haw. I might be good enough to hit something at 25 ft. We have shooters here who do 3 inch groups at that distance. Not me. So it is important to know what you can do before you try to do it.

[Kevin]

That brings to mind another thing.
Always carry at least two means of protection.
Because if you are in a position where you have to use your gun in self defense, you will probably loose the weapon until after all court cases involving it are over.
Even if it was a justifiable shooting, the cops are going to take your gun in as evidence and you are going to be left defenseless until you get back home and get another. 
You might not get your mini (Glock, Kimber, Ruger, Kel-Tec or what ever) for a month or maybe two years. Even then it might get "lost" in the evidence locker.

One of the things I will try to remember, if I am forced to shoot in self-defense, is to ask for a signed receipt from whomever confiscates my firearm as evidence. "Excuse me, officer, but my CCW instructors recommended I obtain a signed receipt for my firearm to maintain the chain of custody for legal purposes".

It would probably make it easier for an attorney to approach a law enforcement administrator or district attorney about returning a citizen's property after the legal issues are settled, in the event an individual runs into an anti-gun desk clerk.

[G50AE]

That brings to mind another thing.
Always carry at least two means of protection.
Because if you are in a position where you have to use your gun in self defense, you will probably loose the weapon until after all court cases involving it are over.
Even if it was a justifiable shooting, the cops are going to take your gun in as evidence and you are going to be left defenseless until you get back home and get another. 
You might not get your mini (Glock, Kimber, Ruger, Kel-Tec or what ever) for a month or maybe two years. Even then it might get "lost" in the evidence locker.

One of the things I will try to remember, if I am forced to shoot in self-defense, is to ask for a signed receipt from whomever confiscates my firearm as evidence. "Excuse me, officer, but my CCW instructors recommended I obtain a signed receipt for my firearm to maintain the chain of custody for legal purposes".

It would probably make it easier for an attorney to approach a law enforcement administrator or district attorney about returning a citizen's property after the legal issues are settled, in the event an individual runs into an anti-gun desk clerk.

That's not a bad idea.

[stantheman86]

If you have to use any handgun for defense it will probably be at bad breath distance anyway....

[MagnumMike]

I have a question that fits this thread, also. I have read many of your reply's citing "center of mass" shots. Considering the size of the ammo and the number of shots we are limited to, shouldn't we be trying for face shots? These would be more likely to be "kill shots", right? Not trying to be a smart-ass. Just making sure I am correct in my assumption. Thank you for any replies.

[theysayimnotme]

Of course it would be better to shoot them in the eye but considering the level of stress a shot that hits anywhere is better than a miss. Center of mass provides the largest target. Calmly shooting at a paper target & shooting at any living being while under great stress are two VERY different things.

[Dinadan]

I have a question that fits this thread, also. I have read many of your reply's citing "center of mass" shots. Considering the size of the ammo and the number of shots we are limited to, shouldn't we be trying for face shots? These would be more likely to be "kill shots", right? Not trying to be a smart-ass. Just making sure I am correct in my assumption. Thank you for any replies.

I guess that depends on how good a shot you are when under intense pressure. If you need to shoot in self defense you are probably not going to be taking careful aim at a stationary target. Have you practiced the kind of shot you are talking about? Here is an exercise I tried last weekend out in the woods. I took an oversize target and pinned it to a very large tree. Then I backed up about six feet and practiced speed drawing my Sidewinder and firing one shot from the hip as I drew. I was not as accurate as I had hoped!

[heyjoe]

that is an excellant drill dinadan. ive done that for two decades now. i figured if i ever have to use it, i will most likely  be firing up close and out of the pocket or holster as quickly as possible. firing as soon as the gun clears leather and on the way up. ive gotten pretty good at it. keep practicing.

[OV-1D]

 BOOM !!  Please don't shoot your pinkie toe off .    Just kidding . 

[stantheman86]

I would ideally like to put a .22 Short, LR or Mag (depending on what I'm carrying) in the face, brain or throat of an attacker but given the scenario I'll take a hit anywhere I can get if need be.

The VAST majority of self defense shootings occur at 0-7 yards, the odds if you having to shoot your Mini at anything past 3 yards are overwhelmingly low.

If someone bear hugs me from behind to try to rob me, and I can barely reach my mini I'd put one in the BGs foot or leg.  Sometimes just getting a hit can turn the tide, I'm being held at gunpoint by two methheads and I reach for my "wallet" and pull my Mini out, I might only have time for a quick draw and shoot to the gut and then go hand to hand with the other one before he shoots you, etc.

The main advantage of a Mini is discretion and surprise, if I'm wearing gym shorts and a tank top no one is going to think I'm armed, I get attacked and bam, I'm letting the BG hold a couple .22's to the face or chest.

I'm about to grab my .22 LR mini right now and walk to the store.

[heyjoe]

BOOM !!  Please don't shoot your pinkie toe off . 

first off you wouldnt want to lean back off balance and leave yourself at a disadvantage mechanically to an oncoming attacker. you would also have that left arm further away from the right side, perhaps grappling with the attacker while you fire.

[redhawk4]

I have a question that fits this thread, also. I have read many of your reply's citing "center of mass" shots. Considering the size of the ammo and the number of shots we are limited to, shouldn't we be trying for face shots? These would be more likely to be "kill shots", right? Not trying to be a smart-ass. Just making sure I am correct in my assumption. Thank you for any replies.

In an ideal world a head shot in any caliber would be the best way to guarantee stopping an attacker in their tracks, however in reality I've always understood you shoot at center of mass for two reasons, one the target is bigger and two that is the part of the body which moves the least in normal movement. The head goes from side to side, up and down and could move causing a miss just from someone flinching as you point he gun and fire. At the very least someone will instinctively try and duck, when somethings coming for the body it's much harder to avoid quickly. My opinion is that there would be circumstances where shooting to the head with a small caliber gun is the way to go, but I'd see that more as a secondary choice, should you be "gifted" an unmissable shot because the BG's right on top of you, or just gives you that opportunity because of how he get's in your face etc. rather than where I'm aiming as "normal procedure" if there's any distance between us.

Regarding effective range, I bet many would cynically argue that with a 22 you're never in range. I would say firstly that at a range where someone can see you have a gun, gives you a chance they might leave you alone.  After that it's really down to your chances of hitting your target with such a small gun under pressure. At the range you can do pretty good at to 15 or 20 yards  on a center of mass type target, but under stress, with poor light and a moving target the jury's still out. The other day at the range I shot a sub 2 inch group with my Smith and Wesson 4" barrel 44 mag at 20 yards, but I'm still nervous, and that's why I practice, about my ability to hit a bear or cougar that is moving to attack, when I'm on my recreational mountain property.

With SD against Humans I still think the saving grace, if you can call it that, is that if you are a reasonably proficient shot with your NAA Mini it will be as effective as a small caliber gun can be at distances that would be appropriate to engage a target and for it to be self defense. When at the range with my 44 mag, I realized 20 yards is a fair distance, other than being in a shoot out where you are legitimately returning fire, you would really have no business shooting at someone at that distance, unless they pulled a gun to shoot at you. I even felt with dangerous animals that unless it was already running at me, I'd still be trying (and hoping) to scare it off at that sort of distance - the one situation where I might try a warning shot.

[stantheman86]

All of the real world stories I read involving Minis used for defense (or murder) involved point blank range.

My favorite is the female 7-11 clerk who stopped a would be rapist/murderer with a mini and a .22 at contact range to the BG's skull.

These are belly guns, you find somewhere to stick it , cock it and fire....whether its the gut, eye, ear, throat, they're what I call "get off me" guns.

If you're actually taking aimed shots with a mini something went seriously wrong and unless you're seriously skilled you're just throwing hail Mary's at anything past a few yards.  Unless you have a Pug odds are the mini you're carrying has no usable sights. I always wished NAA would add a simple rear notch to the standard S, LR and WMR mini just to give you something to use.

[redhawk4]

+1 on good sights, I realized recently that a good portion of the difficulty in shooting small guns accurately, is that most have poor to worthless sights. When I fired a small pistol with something close to full size 3 dot sights, I couldn't believe how accurate I was.

[MagnumMike]

Thanks, guys. You are all correct, of course. I just pictured an encounter at face to face range, not charging from a distance. And, with the scarcity of ammo these days, I want to use as few shots as possible. Also, I was wondering if removing the front sight would void the warranty with NAA on my pistol? I have found that sighting down the fairly flat top of the gun more effective than trying to use the rear sight, anyway. Anyone know about the sight removal/warranty thing? 

[G50AE]

Glad we could help, there is lots of information to be found on this forum.

[boone123]

MagnumMike. There is no reason that NAA would care if you removed the front sight as long as you didn't ever want it replaced under warranty.

[theysayimnotme]

The Freedom Arms mini solved both of the sight problems. Mine has a groove for a rear sight & the hammer doesn't block it. As for the front sight most of them have fallen off.
Another problem with a head shot just occurred to me. I was a juror on a murder trial where the killer shot a man in the back of the head at point blank range with a .45 auto. The bullet did not penetrate the skull but instead dug under the skin & traveled in a curve under the skin. The victim was in a coma for several days before he died. A .22 may well not penetrate the skull in many places.
I lost track of how many times the prosecutor mentioned hollow point bullets, showed pictures of hollow point bullets & asked expert witnesses about hollow point bullets. The type of ammo you use can & will be used against you to inflame the jury in a criminal or civil trial.
I was amused when he asked one detective the question & didn't get the answer he wanted. The detective said they were safer because they reduced the danger of over penetration.

[TwoGunJayne]

I like the rear sight on the Black Widow. I think it helps at range tremendously.

[SteveZ-FL]

There's a lot of commentary about the sights, but darned little on the grip.  To me, everything first centers on the shooter's ability to hold the weapon comfortably and effectively, especially to make the second and third shots.

Both of my minis (.22WMR and .22LR, both 1 1/8th) have replacement grips (rubber oversized grip on the WMR, holster grip on LR).  These grips don't interfere with conceal-ability (to me, anyway) and provide much greater stability when firing. That stability increases the effective range.

[Kentucky Kevin]

I bought a box of golf balls at a yard sale for a dollar, they move when they are hit and help develop muscle and eye memory. In an average sized room, I can hit five golf balls at least once with the two holster grip mini's in my pockets

[Goatpacker]

What room do you shoot those golf balls in? LOL. Thats really good shooting.

[Kentucky Kevin]

fortunate to have bought A WHOLE LOT of 22, and .can practice. Next time at the range, I'm going to go on to the IDPA targets to work them out to 25yds, have not tried that with my mini's yet, and the front door is 25 feet from the coach

[Kentucky Kevin]

I stepped off a 20 x25 foot rectangle, and was trying to time myself and count hits to set a bar for noticing improvements, but was unable to do counting hits and shooting accurately quickly

[Goatpacker]

Just shot a little practice. Was interested in what could be done at a distance with the BW. Shot at a piece of paper (8"x11") from 40 yards useing a post to steady. All I can say is that I would not have wanted to be out there trying to catch Gold Dots. 3 hits on paper and other 2 almost. All would have been in a torso or a wild hog.

[redhawk4]

I have become pretty good at aiming and hitting paper targets, by my standards any way. The other day I shot (off hand not using a rest) a group that surprised me at 20 yds with my 4" Ruger Redhawk 44 mag, trying to see if I could get a group comparable to the one I shot with my 4" S&W 29 44 mag on the previous outing. 9 of my shots grouped with in 1 1/2 inches, two others with in 3 inches one was a flier but I knew it was as soon as I fired - darn it   I'd shot some other decent groups at closer range with some other handguns, to the amazement of my friend who was with me, he's not a particularly good shot, and was starting to feel mildly smug. But then I tried some drills drawing a gun from a holster, trying to find the target and sights as quickly as I could, that brought me back to earth with a bump, that's a whole different ball game and brought home the need for me to concentrate on practice drawing and shooting and even some moving targets for my future visits. While it's possible that you could have time to take aim and shoot in a SD scenario given some of these accounts you read where the BG keeps advancing following repeated warnings, it's more likely you are going to have to shoot quickly - even more so if the other guy has a gun.

When the weather improves and I can get outside on my recreation property, I'm going to do some moving and shooting drills too, the fact is whatever you can do standing still and taking aim at leisure, can still put you in the "couldn't hit a barn if he was inside it" category in less favorable circumstances and when you're rushed.

Back to what you can do with a mini and a 1 1/8" barrel, this becomes even more of an issue than with a larger handgun with good sights etc. While I can hit things out to quite a distance with a carefully aimed and executed shot, with a number of pocket handguns, when drawing and aiming quickly it seems the difficulties discussed above are only worse with a pocket gun, so the effective range becomes even more the range you can actually hit a potentially moving target with little or no time to aim, that closes the distance significantly from the theory.