12 Gauge for Self and Home Defense.

[TwoGunJayne]

I get the Band-aids. I don't want to know about the cork. 

[Goatpacker]

Keeps the critters and dirt out!!!

[G50AE]

I buy matching underwear and socks every time I get new grips, or holster  or such also.

Maybe that would be a different thread....

I always listen to Steve Windwood when I drink Miller High-life beer, which isn't very often because that's some awful beer.

[bud]

I have the Browning auto 5 shotgun in 12 gauge. Would not   trade it for a pump action, but I would buy a nice Winchester model 12 or 97 if the devil made me. Always thought I'd buy a Remington 870, but never did. 

[TwoGunJayne]

Loved my 870. It was the "Wingmaster" variant, taking the 2 3/4 and 3" shells. Removable chokes.

Small game, deer, duck, cutting down trees, harvesting mistletoe, I've used the thing for some unlikely purposes.

I've run that thing so long and hard, it even blew out a barrel once. It was spread open at the end, sort of like in a Bugs Bunny cartoon or something. Scared the crap out of me.

Remington asked some questions, asked me to send in the barrel and an ammo sample. (Remy ammo, too.) They sent me a new barrel.

Great CS.

[the iron horse]

I owned, for years, a 12 gauge Mossberg pistol grip for home defense. It was a good gun but it did have nasty kick and hard to control when doing rapid firing.

I sold it and will purchase either a 20 Gauge Maverick or a 410. I'm also switching to a lower gauge so my wife will be able to fire it. She could not use the 12.

[G50AE]

Welcome to the forum the iron horse.

[bill_deshivs]

Pistol grip shotguns are almost useless for home defense. A stock helps steady the weapon, reduces recoil, balances it. Why do away with all those attributes?

[TwoGunJayne]

I'd lose zero sleep for having a 20 gauge instead of 12 for HD. Just my opinion, of course.

[Uncle_Lee]

Pistol grip shotguns are almost useless for home defense. A stock helps steady the weapon, reduces recoil, balances it. Why do away with all those attributes?

To make it smaller.
Easier to handle in close quarters.

[MR_22]

Pistol grip shotguns are almost useless for home defense. A stock helps steady the weapon, reduces recoil, balances it. Why do away with all those attributes?

To make it smaller.
Easier to handle in close quarters.

That's exactly why I bought my Mossberg 590 with pistol grip. I haven't really used it, though. I ended up replacing it (I didn't sell the Mossberg 590) with a semi-auto Saiga-12 shotgun.

[bill_deshivs]

I understand making the gun smaller, but when you lose the attributes of the stock, and replace them with a front-heavy pistol grip only shotgun, most people are doing themselves a disservice. Shooting a PGO shotgun effectively requires a lot of training. If that same amount of time is spent with a stocked shotgun you would be an expert.
That said, I own a PGO Mossberg 20 gauge, and am building an SBR double barrel with 10" barrels. While I COULD use them for defense, I would rather use a stocked shotgun.
People think you don't have to aim a shotgun. That thought, combined with a hard to handle PGO shotgun, is a recipe for disaster.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Iron Horse talked about a .410. Check out Winchesters .410 PDX round. Turns a light gun into a short range Thumper. Run it in a Mossy 500.  5 round light weight gun. Moss rep says they sell lots of them to old guys.

[MR_22]

If ya ever wanted a Saiga from Russia, you might want to do it soon! I got mine.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/foghorn/breaking-obama-administration-bans-import-izhmash-kalashnikov-saiga-firearms/

[I]

12 gauge isn't just about blasting 2 leggers.

It's about blasting anything that crawls, swims, walks, or flies. (offer only applies in the Western Hemisphere.)

Birds, squirrel and rabbits, pest control, duck season, deer season, wabbit season, duck season, wabbit season, duck season, FIRE!!!!

Black and brown bear, but not kodiak or grizzly unless you've the proper custom slugs from the proper custom gun, and a whole lot of harmless recreational activities are included.

This year, elect 12 gauge as your Representative for Everything!

12 gauge! Beats the crap out of a handgun! It's great for night pickett duty. Try it today! 

[swolf]

"12 gauge isn't just about blasting 2 leggers.

It's about blasting anything that crawls, swims, walks, or flies."

Radical statement, and many will argue--but I agree!  Even beyond our hemisphere, I would choose a 12 gauge as the ubiquitous all-around blaster.  Having been nose-to-nose with wolves, bears, rhinos, elephant, leopard, python, crocs, and many lesser 2 and 4 legged threats, I would have to say that if given the choice of only ONE firearm, it would be a 12 g scattergun.  And as a SHTF weapon, only a matchlock blunderbuss would be easier to maintain loads for a variety of situations.  With the range of ammo from a .690 pumpkin ball to a handful of needles, one would be hard pressed to find a more versatile medium of defense and destruction.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

  I have been loading the .69 ball for fun. Quite a thumper at just over 1oz. With all that mass you have a lot of knock down even with lower recoil loads. It may not pass a  choke so drop one through before you load them.
  My top over the counter load is Nobel Sport Italia  Buck and ball. A .65 ball followed by 6 #1 buck moving 1300 fps. Buck in close-the ball will reach out far. From a 18" cylinder bore the ball part gave a 5" group at 40 yards. 58 cal B&B is what the Irish Brigade loaded to clear the sunken road at Gettysburg.
  Just ordered a mold for foster style slugs hoping they will group better than the.69 ball. Want to try filling the under side of the slug with small shot bringing it up to 1 1/2 oz.
  Swolf is right the 12ga beast will eat almost any ammo you feed it.Ball -slug -bolo -rock salt -nails -used primers -bullet cores - Just Don't be stupid think it through before you try any of this!!!
  Check out Winchester PDX loads for the Beast. A segmented slug. Also a nasty Slug and Buck load.

[Moderndayedison]

It's simple and sweet for me.
Stoeger  has two models that I have my eye on currently.
The Outback over and under 12 gage.



And the Coach Gun side by side 12 gage.



I like them both, can't decide between them.
I'll probably wind up with at least 1 of each.

-MDE

[billt460]

12 gauge shotguns are the one gun no one can have too many of. They are simply too useful in most any type of situation where a firearm of any type is required.

[MR_22]

Shot my Saiga-12 tonight. Took my daughter and she took some video. I tested some cheap Walmart Federal bulk pack 12-gauge and some Spartan 00-Buck. I also tried a couple of magazines. I had very good luck with a couple of VEPR-12 5-round magazines that I converted to work in a Legion 030 Saiga-12, and less luck with a 10-round SGM magazine for the Saiga.

Here's a video:

http://youtu.be/iGFrqU00xzk

And my 14-year-old daughter shooting it:

http://youtu.be/26x3q3FliiA

Fun shooting session!

[TwoGunJayne]

Wow, those rounds go fast. It seems like it barely holds any shells at all!

[MR_22]

Wow, those rounds go fast. It seems like it barely holds any shells at all!

I can get off 10 rounds in about 2.5 seconds. And cycling the bolt consumes some of the recoil, too, so it's not as bad as shooting a pump shotgun.

My Saiga-12 makes me grin big.

[G50AE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1o-NWNmQLM

A 12 Gauge SxS also makes a good car gun, as illustrated in the above video from the television series "Miami Vice". 

[TwoGunJayne]

No wonder the antis are currently straining their guts out with this "backdoor ban" on things "From Russia with Love."

Tula and Wolf were two beacons of reasonable prices and availability in the past couple of years. I suppose it isn't surprising that someone had to go after them with some infringement.

[I]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1o-NWNmQLM

A 12 Gauge SxS also makes a good car gun, as illustrated in the above video from the television series "Miami Vice". 

Oh Lawd. Oh Lawd.

...and I *remember*!

[cfsharry]

While I agree with the thought every home should have at least one twelve gauge shotgun for me it is not the one gun I would choose if allowed but one. 
I would choose a rifle hands down. 
Any quality AR  would fill the bill in caliber .308.  I would not feel under gunned in 5.56.  Both are common rounds and will handle one's needs at distances where reliable hits with a 12 are way beyond it's capabilities.  With an Eotech mounted one has a quality, accurate, simple and foolproof sight for close quarter engagement. 

[OV-1D]

  My preference is a Remington 30-06 auto load .  308 Harry , dang you must want to go to war or something .    Besides I'm too patriotic to own a ak or sks , just wouldn't be right defending ones household with such . 

[TwoGunJayne]

It seems interesting to me that the 12 gauge in its current form is the natural extension and combination of the old black powder shot gun and the .70 musket.

Probably 5 shots, not 1 or 2, the 12 gauge can actually beat many of the old .50 and .70 muskets in muzzle energy with a .69 pumpkin ball. A lot of the old big bore frontstuffers weren't throwing more than 1400 foot pounds of energy. Modern 12 gauge slugs top 3000 fpe.

When I think of classic designs, the 12 gauge stands out in my mind as a wonderful fusion of older technologies. You can even do clay pigeons and small game. For home defense, if you can't do it in 5 shells, then it might be time to call reinforcements. In case of disruption of services and goods, many pistol reloading components can also fuel a shotgun and a single-stage multigauge press is quite cheap for small runs of shells. Many cap-and-ball bullets can go right into the shell as payload. This design plays nice with black powder fuel, as well. Your black powder bullet molds are 12 gauge shot molds. There are plastic reloading sabot to fire .50 muzzle loader conicals from a 12 gauge. You can run darn near anything out of a 19" 12-gauge cylinder bore.

I can't think of a single reason for any law abiding citizen not to own one.

During the last couple of ammo shortages in memory, it was never the 12 gauge 100% out of availability. Slugs and buck were tough to come by a few times, but that's off-the-shelf ammo. I'll just reload a birdshot shell with buckshot and call it a day. Other crazy tricks, such as "cut-shell" slugs, are for desperate times as those are desperate measures. Not a bad trick to remember, though.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

If you have primer, powder,some type of wading, and something to use as shot then all you need to reload is a 6"nail to punch out the old primer and a fat stick to press the new one in. This will not "size" the hull but they will load and fire in the same chamber they were first fired in.


RETRO SHOTGUN LOADING---I watched a youtube  video on the Lemat  Revolver. 1860s Black powder, 9 shots and the axle the cylinder turns on is a 6" 20ga shotgun!! The wad they used over the powder is a ball of rough carded flax.Then buck shot with another ball of flax as a over shot wad.  The Lemat was a pane in the back side to use but I WANT ONE. One of you should take this concept, work out the bugs and  make a modern one.

[TwoGunJayne]

I think a .327 fed mag revolver around a .410/45lc might fly in the real-world market. The .327 eats several shorter cartridges as well.

It would make it weird enough, that a ton of people would want one just for a safe queen.

Real world, that .327 fed mag is tough stuff from a 3"-4". A modern Lemat attempt would no doubt have a barrel longer than that as the center barrel would be crippled at that length.

A better center barrel choice than .410/.45 might be 28 gauge, if the slug and shot situation were rectified. That's pretty much a game-bird only cartridge, but that's simply because that market never went in any other direction. Then again the "ultrasonic bug eaters" at the eieio might call it SBS or AOW and that significantly raises the bar to get one.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

I think the original Lemat was 16ga. The reproduction ones are 20ga . The video said because of more wads and cards than 16. 

I have been loading .69 pumpkin balls. It is a 12ga musket. From a Rem 870 18" cylinder bore at 50 yards will hit a 12" target. Off the 250 yard far berm I get a "nice" 15 foot "group" ---after it finally gets there! Bang-tic tic tic Thump!  In close it is a monster. Never cronoed it but the chart says it should be 1oz moving 1250--1300 fps.

[I]

That's classic American "big mass, low velocity, high momentum" so characteristic of the 1800s.

Great stuff, particularly as the NAA minis are miniaturized 1860s guns. There are truer to roots black powder .22 minis available. Gun history is a fascinating thing.

If we didn't like the old stuff, wouldn't we hate hearing it casually mentioned?

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Do not remember much math from school. How do you find muzzle energy for the pumpkin ball? I learned my gazintas from the Jethro Bodine school of ciphering.

[TwoGunJayne]

Do not remember much math from school. How do you find muzzle energy for the pumpkin ball? I learned my gazintas from the Jethro Bodine school of ciphering.

This web page, you can save to your computer and use offline.

http://www.billstclair.com/energy.html

It allows you to enter in weights and velocities. It is a useful tool for thinking. I have used it often for pellet rifle calculation, where playing with the speed of sound and projectile mass are critical.

A 12 gauge slug is often considered an ounce, plus or minus a bit. Some people like velocity, some people like momentum. It's a hard decision to make.

[cfsharry]

This one is easier.
http://www.reloadammo.com/footpound2.htm
How high do you hold at 250 yds?