Lubricants & Solvents

[redhawk4]

It's surprising the difference cleaning, regrinding/lapping valves in an engine that still seem in reasonable condition can make to the performance. I don't mind the lapping the valves part, there's a perverse pleasure in that, it's getting the carbon build up off the upper side of the valve and the stem I dislike, it's always incredibly hard and takes  some time to remove particularly if the engines been running too rich and/or burning oil, because there can be significant build up. Optimistically, I thought a product claiming to clean your valves as you drive, might at the very least have some effect on softening the carbon making it easier to remove, if they had come out clean, shiny and ready to lap it would have been nirvana, but from what I could see and feel as I removed the carbon the hard way there was absolutely no change whatsoever after days of being soaked, it didn't even penetrate the surface. It never ceases to amaze me as to the unfounded claims people are allowed to advertise for some of these "miracle products".

Full disclosure:  I'm a mechanical engineer who was been rebuilding engines for 40 years.

I've always felt that it was more of an OCD thing to scrape all of the carbon off of everywhere inside the cylinder head and valves. The primary objective is a smooth, non-pitted, even and frosted appearance all the way around the valve and seat surfaces. Without that, the head is going to "blowtorch" through a gap in a poorly sealing valve. If your valve guides are worn or slipped, a session of valve lapping reveals this.

To get the carbon off, I've got a preference for a "wire cup brush" chucked into a cordless drill. If that doesn't get things started, a bit of fine work with a hardened steel sharp-edged block or carbide scribe seems to flake the big scales off.

Yeah. We're talking engines.

He suggested I remove the forearm where you adjust the rings [from 2/34 shells to 3 in shells] and put  a heavy  coat of heavy motor oil on it. I had some 50 weight motor oil, so I used that, and NEVER had a problem after that.The start of each deer season I'd put a coat of 50 weight motor oil on it. Still have the Browning auto 5, and it works great!

Oh yes. It isn't a lot of grease or oil, but a little bit in just the right place. It's like how the faintest smear of grease can stop a cheap nitrile engine seal from squealing. Viton seals and bushings are where it's at.

It's important to get the carbon off the stem and the upper side of the valve because the build up impedes the flow of the valve/head. It also makes the valve heavier which is not desirable. I don't get too anal on some of the other parts, it also depends what the vehicle is and what I'm trying to achieve. Am I just getting it to run reliably in a reasonable time frame or is there some loftier goal in mind. You also can't make a silk purse from a sows ear, if the motor is some very low output type for it's cylinder capacity some corners can be cut without it affecting performance, if it's something more highly strung then little things can make a measurable difference. Even with the marvels of power tools it's not the kind of job I'm going to do more than is necessary if it's something like a lawn mower or a kids play bike. Thankfully the days of the 12,000 mile decoke are long gone for cars etc. with the mileages we cover now, can you imagine the shop time there would be on the average car if it was still like the earlier half of the 1900's ?

Getting back on topic . . . . .  cleaning guns can be quite therapeutic if you make the time to be able to sit down, relax and do it free from distractions or the need to rush because of some other impending deadline.

[redhawk4]

Marvel Mystery Oil - Page 2 - Ruger Forum
rugerforum.net/maintenance/18252-marvel-mystery-oil-2.html   Cached
Marvel Mystery Oil. This is a discussion on Marvel Mystery Oil within the Maintenance forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; My uncles and my father had it in ...

The problem with oil discussions, and I made a similar comment recently on a Triumph forum where they were talking about what oil to use in 70's bikes, is that as individuals we really have no way to realistically test a lubricant. If someone said "I use water on my guns and in my engines instead of oil", that would obviously be disproved the first time anyone tried it. If someone says I use oil X and it's better than oil Y then unless you have several of the same guns or vehicles to use side by side in identical service and endless time to log all the data you are never going to have a definitive result. I do not doubt Marvel Mystery oil can lubricate a gun, because it is oily after all. Is better than other lubes?, there's no way for me to know that. I think I may have used it once many moons ago, but after reading the test done adding it to diesel fuel, where it increased the wear in their test over stock diesel, I mad a mental note not to use it again. Even filtered used Rotella 15/40 engine oil added to the fuel reduced wear in the test apparatus. I just don't think it has any miracle properties, and as stated before I'm really dubious of any claims for products that are the "Holy Grail" across a number of different fields. I don't believe something that is the best oil additive made, can also be the best thing to put in your fuel tank to clean your injectors etc. there are two different sciences involved and if the product was as good as claimed at any one of these duties, it would sell like hot cakes any way, without the need to extol it's virtues in numerous other applications.

[TwoGunJayne]

can you imagine the shop time there would be on the average car if it was still like the earlier half of the 1900's ?

Why, yes I can! I bill $85/hr shop plus an interest in the parts sale. It's frightening, even on a motorcycle. Labor on a motorcycle engine alone from pre 1950s is very easily going to top $1000, minimum. Less than 35,000 miles later... it's almost absolutely trashed. I've seen over $5k in labor on a junked out engine, plus parts and farmed-out work.

Post 1950s is night and day by comparison!

Back on topic, the stainless used by NAA is quite friendly and forgiving compared to other chemistries and finishes. I really don't have to scrub much.

The problem with oil discussions, and I made a similar comment recently on a Triumph forum where they were talking about what oil to use in 70's bikes, is that as individuals we really have no way to realistically test a lubricant.

Old cars, bikes, boats, and aircraft must be wary of ZDDP zinc additive. Our friends at the EPA decided it needed to be removed and this accelerates cam and lifter failure in a solid lifter engine. In 40 wt, Valvoline VR1 racing oil has enough ZDDP without breaking the bank. You can easily top $50/quart for specialty oil.

GL5 grade gear oil contains a sulphur compound that ATTACKS yellow metals (brass/bronze) and these devices contain bushings in the transmission and final drive that are made of this stuff. It shortens the operational life before a rebuild. That sulfur stuff turns brass into dust. It's frightening.

If you're using gear oil on a gun that has brass components, make sure that it is GL4 grade. It doesn't have that nasty sulphur.

[redhawk4]

If you need zinc in an engine oil then the diesel oils still have enough and work great in the older style motors with flat lifters which is where problems occur with modern oils. Motorcycle specific oils also contain high levels of ZDDP, so you shouldn't use the newer car oils in motorcycles. Many use oils like Rotella in motorcycle engines because it's relatively cheap and works, it even has the "shear strength" to handle combined engine and transmission applications.

One thing to be careful of with racing oils is that they don't necessarily have the corrosion inhibitors necessary for road use, because racing oils are changed after each race, not every 3k or 3 months or whatever regiment you use for you road vehicle.

In theory, it seems  that if you are using engine oil on a gun, one with high ZDDP level might work best since you have metal on metal surfaces rather than roller bearings etc. and that's what the ZDDP does create a layer between those surfaces. So perhaps another use for diesel engine oils as they also contain corrosion inhibitors in high levels. Although as I've said before if it's wet and oily I think it will lube a gun OK.  An engine at idle could be close to 1000 rpm, so in one minute it's gone round a thousand times, which could be equated to a gun cycling 1,000 times and that's before you've even left the driveway. By the time you've done just a couple of miles that motor has "fired more rounds" than your gun ever will in your life time.

[TwoGunJayne]

If you need zinc in an engine oil then the diesel oils still have enough and work great in the older style motors with flat lifters which is where problems occur with modern oils. Motorcycle specific oils also contain high levels of ZDDP, so you shouldn't use the newer car oils in motorcycles. Many use oils like Rotella in motorcycle engines because it's relatively cheap and works, it even has the "shear strength" to handle combined engine and transmission applications.

Rotella USED to have enough zinc. Our friends at the EPA again with diesel oil restrictions. I used to recommend Rotella T for antiques, but they changed the da*n formula on us and started calling it "Rotella T1," which doesn't have enough ZDDP. You want at least 1600-1800 PPM of ZDDP. I have a chart handy. Rotella is down to 1018 ppm of ZDDP now. Valvoline VR1 is still kind of light on the zinc. Spectro 4 oil has the most off-the-shelf in a non-specialty oil that I'm aware of right now at 1386 ppm. More than this and you're looking at $50+ a quart.

In theory, it seems  that if you are using engine oil on a gun, one with high ZDDP level might work best since you have metal on metal surfaces rather than roller bearings etc. and that's what the ZDDP does create a layer between those surfaces. So perhaps another use for diesel engine oils as they also contain corrosion inhibitors in high levels. Although as I've said before if it's wet and oily I think it will lube a gun OK.  An engine at idle could be close to 1000 rpm, so in one minute it's gone round a thousand times, which could be equated to a gun cycling 1,000 times and that's before you've even left the driveway. By the time you've done just a couple of miles that motor has "fired more rounds" than your gun ever will in your life time.

Agreed. Perhaps we're overthinking this? People have used bacon grease and shortening for longer than we've been alive put together.

[redhawk4]

You have to keep your eye on those additive levels, they are constantly being changed in the wrong direction thanks to the EPA. Motorcycle oils have the best levels of anything affordable and in recognition of Motorcycles often not being used on a regular basis have more additives to tackle corrosion.

On most guns I think just about anything would work, corrosion protection and it not drying out are the most important qualities IMO, I don't think many guns are worn out by firing, I would suspect more fall to rust.

[TetraGun]

No matter what  you use, for best results, apply lubricants to clean, dry surfaces as solvent residue both (1) gets in the way, and (3) counteracts the efficacy of the lubricant.  Solvents are designed to break down material, including lubricants.

[G50AE]

Welcome to the forum TetraGun.

[bill7676]

Eezox is very good,,,cleans and lubes,,,very good for satin stainless....the only stuff larry seecamp recommends,,,I've been using it for a while now.....

[auburn1975]

I like froglube.  I really like what I have read and reviewed but if you guys have heard otherwise, I'd like to hear what you have to say.  FYI--- http://www.fourguysguns.com/articles/frog-lube-final-chapter

[NOTL21]

Quick question.  You presumably quote Winston Churchill  in your tag line.  I have always found his quips amazing and cannot find any attribution of your quote line to him.  Do you have a reference so I can further research this quote?  Thanks!

[auburn1975]

Well, you must be correct.  Having just spent over an hour on Google looking at Churchill and others site reference for authentication of this quote to a man I admire from history, I hate to say that I blindly thought it sounded like him and re-quoted it without looking it up first.  Ok, it expresses my sentiment for self defense and I have a better, true Churchill quote also to add.   

[boone123]

Gun lube is pretty much debatable, and brought to gun owners through advertisements that if you don't use their product, your gun will turn to junk.
I shoot a lot and have for years. I have found that most lubes do the job.  It seems like the lube in most cases turns to crap, not because the lube is gone, but because it's contaminated by a buildup of burnt powder and such.  Some people don't use any lube in their guns, or just enough to keep the rust away in some climates.
OK, I don't clean my guns till their dirty. When I do, I put a dab of Gunslick on the sear if the gun is down that far.  In the hard to get to places I now, and have for awhile used 3 and one oil. In the easy to lube places I use some Rem-oil. Can always give it another squirt if things bog down. Rem-oil doesn't seem to attract to much burnt powder, but doesn't stay on long.

If you were to lube your gun and work the action without firing it, you would be amazed at how long the lube would last.
Just screwing with you. You already knew that, didn't you?

[boots]

In post #14 Grayelky referenced a web site and it suggested Lubrite FMO-AW [350-AW weight].  It is now available in a spray can but at $21.00 a can it is beyond what I want to spend. I am sure it is very good so does anyone have an a suggestion on where it might be found a less money or is it available in non aerosol cans and I just missed the offering on the web site.

[OV-1D]

  Myself I'm probably the BIGGEST fan of good old WD-40 , works for everything and in a real pinch you could probably cook with it to a certain point . HaHaHaHa . I buy this stuff by the cases for my work and theres nothing as cheap and as good especially for the price . Since I've been buying it for the past 25 years I think they caught on and started jacking the price up and up to almost $ 3.50 a big spray can .

[boone123]

In the past when I shot 22 semi-autos like Ruger  marks,  I would break them down for cleaning, go outside and flush all the crap out of them with spray cans
of WD-40. Works great. Then I would use compressed air and blow the WD-40 out, then lube For cleaning WD-40 is great, for lubing, mot so much...

[grayelky]

Boone-

Do yourself a favor and give the Dexron II ATF a try. I promise you will not be sorry you did.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/lubricants101.html

[tocsn40]

Thanks for the info on grease