Coward to the end

[red14]

Good points Gray, I say public execution, and the families get to play Lacrosse with the head like Native Americans.

[mndoug]

GRAY... I, too, am sorry you lost your cousin - and that we've all lost "one of the good guys."   Your cousin's story chilled my blood... in another thread I recently wrote about how, while on a ride-along with my policeman brother, I watched as he slowly and carefully approached the car of a drunk driver he'd just pulled over, putting his hand on his pistol as he did.  I remember thinking at the time, "I could see my brother die tonight."  The moment really drove home the gravity of his role - and that of all LEOs - in our society.  And how none of the rest of us really understand...

   

   Regarding Loughner and the creep who shot your cousin,  I would love to see the speediest end to their time on this Earth.  

   

   Not saying that you should do the same as me, but in times of stress it helps to remind myself:  "Quem deus vult perdere, dementat prius - Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad."  In my own case, it's "mad" with anger.  (But then, sometimes there are things worth being destroyed for, aren't there?   )

   

   Brings up the old argument... which is the worse punishment:  Death, or life imprisonment in a sh*t-hole?

   

   I know, let's give one scumbag the former, and the second scumbag the latter... we'll ask for a report in the next life.  (If we see them.)

[grayelky]

Thank you to all who have responded so kindly. It was not my intent to stir anyone. I felt a rage come over me, and it had to leak out.

   

   Chad was a helluva good guy. I was apprehensive about him becoming a LEO, but I was wrong. Whenever he got into a good chase or made a really nice bust, he would always come by with the video to show me. Sometimes I felt he was just bonding due to me being a retired LEO, and sometimes I felt he was seeking my approval that he had performed well. He had, of course. While he was only on his own for 2 years, he never lost a chase, and never lost a fight. He was in one where he broke the guys arm and wrist, and he was so high on drugs, he did not know it. Chad later admitted he was scared during the fight. He was cautious. I was told as he went from the driver's side toward the passenger's side, he was watching, as he seemed to know there was a problem. The murderer known as Gregory Favors, who has 18 convictions, mostly felonies, ambushed him.

   

   I am a firm believer in no one can go before it is their time. If God did not want Chad dead, he would still be alive, and Favors would be dead. Sometimes, it just sneaks back up on me, and I have to vent. So far, I have been able to use a variety of ways. I thank you kind folks for being patient with me.

[mndoug]

Gray... that's why we're here, bro... we are all "Brothers-in-Rant."

   

   

[cookieruffruff]

grayelky, very sorry about the loss of a good friend good LEO, but as you said GOD must have a WOUNDERFULL PLAN FOR HIM, GOD REST HIS SOUL.  ps i hope favors gets keelhauled, castrated, then tortured. i also hope the family and friends of the leo  can do the torture     ruffruff

[arizonagunslinger]

Gravel-

   

   Two things to keep in mind. First, I am talking about the specific case of Jared Loughner, not Psych defenses on the whole. Most of them are bullshit and I hope your cousin receives the all the justice our system affords.

   

   Second, I am particularly familiar with the Loughner case. I am a Tucson native and a Graduate of the University of Arizona (it is adjacent to the shooting site) Schizophrenia is a real medical issue with potential treatments. It is unique from many other mental ailments in that it doesn't inhibit the thought processes, only distorts them.

     

   After reading through all his literature, I strongly believe that his delusion caused him to believe he was trapped in a waking dream, and the only way to free his mind was to disrupt the evil government that was controlling it. Imagine being stuck in a nightmare all the time, and being willing to do anything to escape.  

   

   When properly medicated, I believe Jared will suffer from the emotional fallout of his actions.  

   Personally, I hold his parents to account. There are numerous recorded incidents of his delusions disrupting the world around him, and they never sought treatment. A schizophrenic is almost never aware of his illness, it is solely up to those around him to help him find help.

   

   ArizonaGunslinger

[wildtim]

So we should try his parents with criminal negligence as well?

   

   The problem with the "treatment" you mention is that they simply blunt the symptoms and keep the patient in the real world for as long as the pill lasts, no longer.  There is no cure.  

   

   If the patient ever stops taking their meds they go right around the bend again.  Some parts of the country allow patients to choose not to take their meds, if they are in their right minds, which they are when on their meds, and they knowingly deliberately  become a danger to society again.  DOH!

   

   I think society would be better off if, once someone has proven their delusions have enough power to make them deadly dangerous, we just remove them.  This is a good case to start with.

[arizonagunslinger]

But where does that end Wildtim? Should we execute those with retardation who leave the stove on and burn down the house? They can't be cured of mental defect, and are as dangerous after as they were before.  

   

   Driving Texters kill more people each day than schizophrenics kill all year, by a huge margin.Police are more likely to shoot an innocent person than a citizen with a gun is.  

   

   Every single person in this world is dangerous, to pretend otherwise is foolish and dangerous. Many on this forum are aware of this fact, and have taken the step of arming themselves to ensure that they have a say in their survival. Schizophrenia cannot be cured, but it can be controlled, and I know many productive, intelligent people who suffer from the disease.  

   

   If a man didn't know he was narcoleptic, and during his first blackout was driving, should he be tried for murder? Should he be executed just in case he ever tries to drive again? Food for thought.

   

   ArizonaGunslinger

[redhawk4]

I see the mental illness issue if you are correct in your summation of his condition. I disagree that such a person should ever be released they represent too much of a danger to others. So IMO there are only two possible outcomes, death penalty or life, meaning just that - life in prison.

   

   There are too many documented cases of those who have been released and reoffended for me to ever have confidence in the system to make such a decision.

[bud]

You do the crime, you do the time!!

[arizonagunslinger]

Statistically, most criminals reoffend. Those who suffer a bout of mental illness do not. Few schizophrenics who are made aware of their illness through medication and therapy ever choose to lose that coherence. There are of course exceptions, but I believe this whole issue should be laid in the hands of a competent mental health facility, and not the angry lynch mob that's waiting. I weep for all the victims, on both sides of the gun.

   

   ArizonaGunslinger

[redhawk4]

One is too many with the sort of crimes we are talking about. If we go to statistics we will see too many reoffend for my tastes. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a competant mental health facility based on some of these cases. I feel for all the victims too, I just don't believe we take a chance again with some types of offenders, I'm firmly on the side of possible future victims.

[mrmadhat]

this wasnt a case of "lets shoot the one evil thing" it was a mass shooting, it was planned and it was intentional.. schizo or not he took multiple lives and was after more.. anyone who intentionally takes life in a malicious manor like that is mentally unsound. delusional or not they know they are taking lives. he wasnt pointing a banana at a crowd and he knew they were people. he saw there was children, elderly, wifes, mothers, dads, brothers ect.. but was willing to end those lives, and for what reason?, he personally wasnt happy with the government? .. he may be schizo, but is that an excuse for such an act. it no where near comparable to some poor mentally challenged kid who accidentally sets fire to the kitchen. there is a difference between accident or potential accident that harms or can harm someone and a mass shooting, planned, intentional and out for taking lives... he should have a fair trial, he should have enough time on this earth to be given the same rights as any who commit such atrocities, but in the end he should be tried, convicted and punished accordingly, just as any other individual who intentionally and maliciously takes human life

[lohman446]

"I see the mental illness issue if you are correct in your summation of his condition. I disagree that such a person should ever be released they represent too much of a danger to others. So IMO there are only two possible outcomes, death penalty or life, meaning just that - life in prison.  

   

   There are too many documented cases of those who have been released and reoffended for me to ever have confidence in the system to make such a decision."

   

   I agree with you to a degree.  The goal of treating someone who was legally insane (did not know the wrongness of the action) need not be punitive.  I agree that life in custody is a needed protection for society, however since we are not attempting punitive action said confinement can be done in a reasonably comfortable setting (while maintaining security).  

   

   That being said I make no judgement in this particular case.  We have to be careful that we do not let insanity pleas be an easy way out.  Historically IIRC they are not generally successful so at least that is a good sign that the system does not let them be effectively abused.

[arizonagunslinger]

Being "Schizo" is indeed an "excuse" for such an act, our legal system explicitly states it. We anchor our legal system on the premise that men know right from wrong, and make exceptions for those that don't. Temporary Insanity pleas are historically unsuccessful. Genuine, permanent, documentable mental illness is not the same thing.  

   

   I would like to point out a comparison; an individual who suffers retardation becomes "a poor mentally challenged kid," but someone suffering a more devastating mental condition is just a "Schizo." Schizophrenia is a very real, damaging condition.  

   

   Lohman- I think my thought process has me landing somewhere in what appears to be your AO. If he genuinely didn't know what he was doing, he shouldn't be punished. But to ensure no possibility of a relapse, he should be segregated and monitored.  

   

   I accept most people aren't going to be capable of grasping the complexities of mental illness. It is not easy to understand that some unfortunate souls see the world differently, and truly cannot comprehend our reality. I have been shot at, bombed, cursed and hated, and there are few things left in this world that truly scare me. But not being able to trust my own mind, my own senses, even the thought of it keeps me up some nights.

   

   ArizonaGunslinger

[wildtim]

Arizona:

   

   My degree is in mental health, I study mental health, I unfortunately don't work in the mental health field but I do understand exactly what schizophrenia is.

   

   It takes a real special schitzo  to actually be so out of touch that they are a significant danger to others but still have the capacity to function well enough to actually carry out a plan.

   The vast majority are out of this reality but not dangerous, and even the majority who are a danger are mostly a danger to themselves.  The one who can relate to both this world and his own enough to accomplish all that this guy did is a very very rare and dangerous species.

   

   While I can feel sorry for them and know that it is their deformity that is causing the problem.  I don't trust that they can be contained, nor is it any more just to keep them locked away than it would be to put them down.

[redhawk4]

I think there is the problem as Madhat says, that anyone who carries out such an act must have some sort of mental issue. So that could be taken to mean we can punish no one that commits such a crime, because they all have an "excuse".

   

   There is also the point that regardless of any mental problems, I find it hard to believe someone has the necessary "intelligence" to commit such a crime, but at the same time has no understanding that you can't just go round killing people and expect no consequence. It was a premeditated crime and I find it too hard to believe he didn't think/know he was doing something wrong during the lead up as he made his plans.

     

   My best friend from elimentary school lost his mind and killed his daughter about 10 years ago. Although I'd not seen him for many years, it is still something that weighs heavily on my mind on the occasions something prompts me to think about it. I knew him as an intelligent and very gentle soul from a good, kind family and it certainly gave me another perspective on the situation when compared to the typical mug shot of a complete stranger you see, after something terrible has occurred and you immediately see a monster. So I have to acknowledge that someone can commit a terrible crime purely from a mental illness. In his case the circumstances leading to it and what occurred, leave utterly no other explanation. It seems society and authorities find it difficult to recognize such problems and take action before it's too late. My friend's wife knew he had developed severe problems, unfortunately despite her pleas no action was taken in time.

   

   I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere.

   

   In the AZ case, I just find it too hard to believe he didn't know better.

[lohman446]

I think the legal definition of insanity (as I understand it) in regards to the court is fairly reasonable.  I agree that something has to be a "bit off" to result in you killing someone for no apparent reason.  However, as long as you knew it was illegal or wrong, you should be held accountable.  I don't care if you don't feel remorse, having enough mental capacity to have known it was wrong is enough to result in punitive action.  

   

   Redhawk I feel sympathy for your loss.  Unfortunately some things that are unexplainable are simply unexplainable.  I cannot imagine the pain your friend must go through on a daily basis.

[redhawk4]

"I cannot imagine the pain your friend must go through on a daily basis."

   

   I don't know what his current mental state is, but if he has now returned to anything approaching a normal state of mind he must certainly struggle with that every waking hour. I also cannot imagine his family's pain. As a child I was aware that this family had lost a young child who was killed in a road accident and felt a sympathy for their loss, this one certainly put that in the shade - unimagineable, it certainly puts my own troubles in life into perspective.

[red14]

I don't care about his 'mental health'.  He killed and wounded many people.  He is a 'hazard to society'.  He should be put down, like a rabid animal.  NOW!

[mrmadhat]

I find there to be no "excuse" for murderer of innocent children, judges, women, the elderly, passers by, who ever..schizophrenia is a disease I agree, but excusing intentional, planned MURDER on a count of "insanity" in such a case is a "disease" all in its own IMO..

[redhawk4]

On the basis that if you had been there with a gun, known what he was about and had the opportunity to shoot him dead after he shot the first person, most of us would have done it. It's strange some now feel his life to be of much more value after the fact and after more were killed and injured.

   

   I don't know that we do the perpertrators of such crimes a service, keeping them alive becuase of their mental state. My concern is always that keeping them alive and treating them leads to the possibility of them being released. For premeditated murder life needs to be life, either given up at execution or lived out behind bars in jail or a metal institution.

[lohman446]

Redhawk I would never take a life if I did not beleive, in the moment, that doing so would prevent imminent danger to someone else.  The moment of need for quick action is past.  I do not think taking a life can serve any purpose and would not impose the negative consequences of doing so on anyone such as an executioner.  Though I do agree with you.  We need a life sentence that is a life sentence with no possiblity of being released.  The difference between a mental institution vs a "hardcore" prison being the punitive factor - which should only not exist in the case of someone actually not having understood what they did was wrong.

[redhawk4]

I agree with your before or during the event argument versus after the event, I was asking it more as a question as to exactly why it's so different.

[lohman446]

I think the difference is the need for decisive and quick action to prevent further violence during the act vs the ability to do anything else after.  To me violence should be near the bottom of the list of ways to deal with something.  However I fully understand and accept that it must be an available remedy for certain situations.  During the shootings would have been such a situation.  After, we have less negative ways of dealing with it.

[redhawk4]

"Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

   

   

   I saw this the other day and thought it was a good statement.

[jswi2374]

I watched the movie "Sgt. York" with a class of 10th graders this week. For those who don't know, he was a devout Christian drafted into the army at the start of WW1. He tried to get an exemption as a consciencious objector but was denied. When his squad was pinned down by machine gun fire and taking heavy casualties, he killed 19 Germans to stop the guns and force the surrender of over 120 German soldiers. His explanation was that he killed those 19 men to stop them from killing hundreds of other men. Although he was considered a hero and became the most highly decorated American soldier of the Great War, he never capitalized on his actions and regretted them all his days. On his deathbed, he asked those around him if God could possably forgive him for breaking the most basic commandment against killing others.  

   There is no easy answer but my students were struck by how seriously he considered the morality of killing both before and after his combat experiences. I would hope that all of us who have guns, and are able to take a life so easily and quickly, carefully consider the ifs and whens of lethal force.  

   +1 to Redhawks quote

[heyjoe]

on this board i dont see any indication of anyone wanting to take a life at all or use lethal force of any kind unless absolutely necessary to protect life. on some other boards i have visited i have at times shaken my head in wonder at some of the incredibly stupid posts i have read and the key board commandos that post them.

[westerly1965]

Heyjoe....I know exactly what your talking about...over the years I have stopped following many boards because of just that behavior it runs rampant on some forums and it drives me nuts...

[arizonagunslinger]

Heyjoe and Westerly- I'm sorry gentlemen, are we on the same forum? The key reason I dropped out of my usual ghosting was to address throat cutting mob mentalities in this very topic. It troubles me to know that there are so many armed citizens who suffer such unchecked, unthinking rage. Granted this forum has a much higher tolerance for dissenting opinions, for which I applaud. Please start from the top if you believe this discussion is "keyboard commando" free.

   

   ArizonaGunslinger

[westerly1965]

AZGS fair enough statement regarding this particular thread.  But I have been prowling this board for a long time and rarely see it here.  I don't really think anybody here suffers from" unchecked unthinking rage"  I think this thread just shows how upset people get about people like this particular guy.  You can argue till your blue in the face that he is mentally ill it doesn't change what he did in a very premeditated fashion.  Sick or not he should go in for life.

[redhawk4]

I don't think anything has been said on this thread that's a cause for concern, disagree making your arguments or ignore the thread and go to others, but don't feel you must participate to save humanity.

   

   The views expressed here have been typical of the discussion that goes on when something awful like this happens in bars, restaurants, offices and factories all over the country, if not the world, it certainly isn't the sole perogative of gun forums.  

   

   People advocating the death penalty are within their rights, given it is still a possible outcome and one of the penalties for premeditated murder. I re-read the thread and don't think anyone was advocating acts of violence that they would carry out at worst you are getting some of the "hangings to good for him" responses, but some of that has been drawn out by others strongly defending him, on the grounds of mental illness which is supposition at this stage.

   

   Do I feel bad for starting the thread . . . no, I've found it to be an interesting and thought provoking discussion which has helped me appreciate further both sides of the argument. Now it's turned a little self righteous and paranoid for my tastes.

[arizonagunslinger]

I gave up on trying to "save" people via the internet long ago. It isn't so much I am afraid that members of the forum might commit the acts, more specifically I fear they might condone the acts. After he was tackled to the ground and disarmed, suppose a member of the crowd tried to kill him, would any intervene? I hate to see good men bend their knee at the altar of hate, it is a dangerous road.

   

   Regarding his mental health, you are completely correct. It is supposition based off of his writings and my experiences with schizophrenics. My point is simply IF he suffers from the disease, and lacked the mens rea, then he shouldn't be treated as though he were fully coherent. IF this turns out to be a very elaborate, well concocted insanity plea, then God be with him, because everyone one else is jumping ship.

   

   P.S. (Post Script for the young 'uns) I would ask all you poor buggers who read my gibberish to take it with a grain (or two) of salt. I have strong opinions and strong convictions, and am not very good at smoothing the corners of my arguments. If one of my opinions went down sideways, please induce vomiting and consult your local poison control. Thank you.

   

   ArizonaGunslinger

[lohman446]

One of the things I will note that is "different".  People may have their opinions on subjects but discussion still occurs.

   

   Doc's post is an example of that.  It did seem to tone down a lynch mob atmosphere, and allowed for more reasonable discussion.

[redhawk4]

As Lohman states, although we have a broad spectrum of opinions on this matter, it's great that everyone's still prepared to discuss the matter without getting into any personal attacks on each other.  

   

   It will be interesting to see how the case pans out as it runs it's course, what will come out during the trial and what eventually will happen to Loughner.