comparing velocity(s) of .22mag vs. .22lr, "apples to apples"

[luke1]

group....

I've taken to carrying my .22lr mini quite a bit lately versus my BW, PUG, .22mag 1 1/8 etc.  I suppose part of that reason is that it's the newest member of the stable.  It's the gun I carry when I "can't" carry a gun. My point is, I remember the stats on .22lr velocities vs. .22mag velocities written on the back of the NAA catalogue a few years back, but it seems to me that it was never apples to apples in terms of brand, grains, etc.

My question is, ...is the .22lr anywhere near the .22mag (if the barrel was the same length), or am I really getting a little more of a bump up with the .22mag even though the powder has completely burned up, upon the bullet leaving the barrel?

Obsessive I know, but then again...this is the only place to ask.

Thanks in advance.

[TwoGunJayne]

I did an extensive spreadsheet to find the answer to the very question you ask.

My best answer is that it is confusing and inconclusive. Some .22 lr actually BEATS some .22 mag in certain barrel lengths. As the barrel approaches 6", .22 mag becomes dominant. It's really a mixed bag under 2" and it isn't intuitive at all.

Basically, it boils down to CCI Stingers and Velocitors in .22 lr and CCI Maxi-mag FMJ in .22 mag from barrels under 4". You WERE asking about what had the most energy, right? A CCI MM .22 mag fmj from a NAA Black Widow actually meets the FBI bare gelatin penetration requirement. If you don't hit the spine, it's quite possible to have a full pass-through torso shot with this round and gun combo.

Beware CCI Maxi-mag +V. It actually does a little worse than straight CCI MM from a short barrel, it's formulated for rifles and not pistols.

The .22 mag Hornady Critical Defence round is actually tuned for a 4-6" barrel.

Carrying a .22 lr mini? Get yourself some CCI Stingers or Velocitors and proceed as normal. You'll likely not get much or any expansion with these rounds from a super short barrel.

If the .22 lr ammo has the word "Cap," "CB," "subsonic," or "Quiet" in the name, you DO NOT WANT THAT for self-defence from a supershort barrel. For the most part, .22 mag is all "good to go," as far as having enough energy. It's hard to get a "bad" .22 mag round. Keep in mind that .22 lr "subsonic" is meant to be subsonic from a RIFLE barrel, therefore pretty lousy from a super shorty.

Avoid Aguila Colibri and Super Colibri for self-defence. You're better off throwing rocks. Those rounds emulate pellet rifles. Seriously. Do the math.

Oh well, I'm off to the woods. If you never hear from me again, then I was killed by a pack of feral dogs.
http://naaminis.com/smf/index.php?topic=4610.msg75007#msg75007

[luke1]

'preciate the feedback.  I currently carry the cci stingers in my .22lr, I think they are pretty much the best for this type of gun from what I've heard.

Interesting what you said about the hornady critical defense, they've been my go-to round for my mags, should I switch to gold-dots?..maybe mix-load?

yeah, basically I was just trying to figure out what the difference in power was between two rounds with the same grain count, configuration, brand...blah, blah  is there really that much of a reduction in power when I'm out an about with the little .22lr versus the mags? The catalogue was frustrating in how the info was presented, I wanted to get a better handle on that for curiosities sake.

As far as the aguila...yeah, they've never sat well with me.  I'd only use them for target rounds, rarely heard much good about them regarding their consistency etc..

[cfsharry]

Luke,
Check out the website Ballistics By The Inch.  Much useful info to be had.  Their methodology is top notch. A 'Go To' site for questions like yours.

[redhawk4]

Checkout these too, if you haven't seen them. NAA has tested a lot of different Ammo themselves.

http://northamericanarms.com/ballistics

[Kevin55]

here is a repost.

http://naaminis.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=2722
Here are my comments from a similar thread.  Similar to your conclusions, less than 2", there isn't much advantage with a 22mag.  The longer the barrel, the advantage of the 22mag shows up.

Graphs. 22mag and 22lr
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/2013data/22magME.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/2011graphs+/22ME.html

Data
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22mag.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html

Pretty obvious that for the 22mag longer is better and Lenght has a huge affect from 2 to 8 inches, with 15-16" being the optimal.  Looks like 4" is almost double the energy of 2" barrels for 22mag.  Energy was ballpark close for 22mag, but varied greatly for 22lr.

For 2" barrel,  best energy
22lr.      70
22mag.  80

Generalization of charts
Cal.       2".      4".     16"
22lr.     65      95.      140
22mag. 70.   140.      320

My summation. 
For 2" barrel, looks like 22mag is not much of an improvement over 22lr.
22lr ammo selection is critical.
22mag,  barrel length improves energy greatly.

[SteveZ-FL]

Be sure that you've factored in bullet weight.  .22LR Stingers are 32g and the comparable .22WMR from CCI is 40g. 

Another SD factor if one is considering .22Lr versus .22WMR is the "noise/flash" difference.  With a 1 1/8th barrel, the report from the .22WMR is deafening compared to the .22LR.  The same holds true with the flash, as it seems at night like a foot of flame is coming out of the WMR.  These factors make the WMR seem like a more formidable weapon to the person downrange, and anything which causes the other guy to think twice or doubt the odds has value.

[nastruck]

Excellent point Steve!!!!

[cfsharry]

These factors make the WMR seem like a more formidable weapon to the person downrange, and anything which causes the other guy to think twice or doubt the odds has value.

Guys, tell me you're joking.
If not, you might want to rethink the reason you are carrying a firearm.
If you ever have to draw your weapon it should not be in hope of intimidation but rather to nullify a threat. If you are not 100% mentally prepared to do that perhaps you should, indeed, reconsider carrying.

[Dinadan]

The noise/flash is a two edged sword. If a person has night vision then the flash will diminish it for the shooter and the BG. Probably not much of a factor since any night confrontation will likely be in an urban setting: not really dark enough to develop much night vision. The noise factor is more of a concern, I think. WMR is really loud out of a Mini. If the noise deafens a person temporarily, that decreases the ability to detect other threats; for example, another thug approaching, or a LEO saying "Put the gun down!"

Anyway, I think that in a shooting situation, a person should aim for incapacitation, not for intimidation.

[SteveZ-FL]

If you ever find yourself where what's between you and a BG armed however is a 5 shot, single-action, short-barrel .22 mini, any additional edge (physical or psychological) will be happily welcome. 

Any shot fired is done so for one reason - stopping the threat immediately.  However, there can very well be times, especially if your armament is only a mini, that the first or second or third shot fails to drop the opponent (and remaining rounds are getting mighty low).  Now you find yourself hoping that the opponent is really not that firearm-savvy and doesn't realize your situation.  Also rises is the hope that the opponent is a now-scared-$&@^less coward who didn't expect armed resistance and sees no value in continuing the event.

There is no disagreement on the when/why of drawing a firearm.  However, if the only firearm (left) is going to be a mini, knowing all factors - plus and minus - of its use is simply prudent carry.

[Goatpacker]

Seeing how a 12 ga combat shotgun holding 7 rounds of slugs ans 00 buck will not fit into my boot, but a NAA Mini fits there perfectly. If I can get the mini to roar like a cannon I will do it because that would be a big advantage when confronted by most chicken S**t BGs!!! If I can't comfortably conceal and carry a 44 mag, I at least want them to think they are up against one!!!

[cfsharry]

Delusion is it's own reward....until reality sets in.
Just my opinion but in my mind any supposition or expectation that the sight of your weapon, it's mighty roar or the thought that your attacker is at heart a coward, puts you at a disadvantage.

[nastruck]

I hope I never have to put any of this to the test but let me once more state my belief. I do not see a gun fight taking place, even in the worst scenario. Shoot someone ten feet away from you and you're going to be big time trouble (at least in Delaware).
Here's the thing (at least for me), every time I get in my car I buckle my seat belt. Not because I think I will get into an accident but because I'll be safer if I do crash. The same applies to carrying my weapon. I never want to have to use it or my seat belt....
Oh, back to the sound thing. It is said bigger is better so if it sounds big it probably is big....

[TwoGunJayne]

I view the enhanced muzzle flash of a .22 mag mini to be akin to a free shot of pepper spray with each bang. You pepper spray them in the face, right? I'm fairly sure they won't like it at 1-2 feet.

Gold Dots

Sure. That's a good, premium round from a shorty. It's a limited penetration round and expect no pass-through shots to the torso. Pretty decent trauma from the gel I've seen. Save the Hornady CD .22 mag for larger than Black Widow 2". Those things stomp from something like an NAA Mini-Master, Hogleg, or Ruger Single Six.

[redhawk4]

Generally the problem with 22 mag is the powder is too slow burning for a short barrel and so you don't get much of the potential velocity and you will get a lot of blast and flash as powder is burning well after the bullet has left the barrel. I believe this has been partly addressed with the newer SD ammo that's come out which is tailored more towards handguns. There's a test in this month's National Rifleman of the S&W 351 a 7 shot 22 mag revolver where they show some ballistic data from these loads.

[SteveZ-FL]

There are no delusions. Whenever you find yourself in a defensive posture you start off at a disadvantage.  The other guy(s) picked the location, the time, the setting, the environment and probably thinks (t)he(y) ha(s)(ve) all odds in his/their favor.  No matter how well you've been trained and how much you've practiced, you are probably responding to something of a surprise time-wise. 

A clear head, quick analysis of the situation, rapid response and excellent shot placement (if firearm use is the proper response) are indeed the top factors in getting through a nasty event.  However, anything additional that can be brought into the equation (whether it proves after-the-fact to have been effective or not) should not be ignored or discounted up front. 

[TwoGunJayne]

100% what Steve said.

I'd like to throw in a military saying: "If it works, but it's stupid, then it's not stupid."

If body glitter and pink tutus enabled you to win 100% of the time, guess what our Armed Forces would be wearing? (ha ha, only serious.)

[nastruck]

Steve +1

[redhawk4]

Steve, you are definitely at a disadvantage when someone has chosen to attack you - the element of surprise alone get's you off to a poor start and is a reason to keep your eyes skinned anticipating potential danger. Keep an eye out for suspicious individuals or activity, and any kind of cover someone could be lurking behind, cross the street or give it a wide berth. I like pocket carry when walking because if you sense the possibility of danger you can slip a hand in your pocket and be holding the grip ready to go. However depending on how they are armed, if they don't know you have a gun, then producing one could put them on the backfoot, if they hadn't considered that in their original plan - a good reason to always carry a gun and why carrying concealed can give you an advantage. From a number of actual accounts you read about, it does seem that often the BG's overlooked the possibility that their "victim" might be armed and paid the price.

From two incidents where I thought I was going to have to use a gun for SD, it's surprising how small the gun suddenly seems in your hand. The first time it turned out to be just a deer that had slipped on ice and fallen against the house, but it sounded like someone had kicked open the door open from the garage to the house. My Guardian 380 seemed to take on the dimensions of a Mini in my hand as I waited to see what was going to happen. The second time was a Cougar circling the camp in the dark, my 44 mag Ruger also seemed to magically seem much smaller and less formidable than normal and I was relieved to exchange it for a 12 gauge pump that I had in the travel trailer and have that back in the holster for backup. I can't imagine how little a mini revolver would feel and look in your hand in the seconds leading up to you having to use. That is something to be aware of, having a gun to hand can make you feel pretty secure and invincible, but suddenly when you might have to use it, you will feel much less invincible than you might imagine, that's where familiarity with the gun and through practice knowing you can handle it comes in. You still feel scared, but you have the confidence to feel you can get the job done. Anyone who just keeps a gun by the bed and never uses it, might find they are in for a shock when the adrenalin starts pumping and self doubt creep in.

[nastruck]

Wow if I left my house feeling that paranoid I would never leave my house!!!! 

[redhawk4]

Wow if I left my house feeling that paranoid I would never leave my house!!!! 

I don't think it's about feeling Paranoid so much as about reality. Most people it seems have never been attacked and so perceive we live in a very safe world and even though things do happen, it wouldn't be to them. After you have been attacked your point of view changes dramatically, because now you know for a certainty it can happen to you.

That's why we all have to choose for ourselves what we are comfortable with, no good trying to persuade someone else they don't need to carry 3 or 4 guns

[TwoGunJayne]

From two incidents where I thought I was going to have to use a gun for SD, it's surprising how small the gun suddenly seems in your hand.

This line jumped out at me. One of the many degrees I almost got in college was psychology (ridiculously long story.) There is a formidable psychology concept of "perceived size." It's all in your head.

Several studies concerned the perceived size of coins to the children of rich families and those of poor families. Those from less privileged backgrounds consistently perceived the coins to be bigger than those from affluent families. Percieved value. Percieved threat.

A similar concept is working overtimes in a perp's head. I have a knife with a sculpted handle that could be mistaken for a very very small mini revolver butt. Some lowlife was hassling people (including me) at a gas station one day. He decided to up the game and threaten someone (me, in fact.) I gave him a glare and reached for my "wallet," pulling up my shirt. I know he saw that tiny, tiny knife handle. I paid for what I bought (unlike him, about to be picked up for unwelcome loitering,) and he saw my "flash." It was a CRKT Bear Claw knife (Russ Kommer pattern,) but he only saw that neat contoured grip. It was over before it started in probably 3 different ways. I was going to not draw the knife, but fake a wallet draw and throw loose cash in his face with that hand, while shooting him with the other hand. Coins are big to the underprivileged, how about a bundle of flying, fluttering twenties? OOPS!!! DID I BREAK YOUR CONCENTRATION??!?! (Shiva would have been so, so very proud! Gives me fuzzies.)

This is also the ninjitsu concept of metsubishi. http://www.ninjutsu.com/linda-metsubishiNL.shtml Throwing money at someone just before a fight is a trick that's got to date back... to... money.

His eyes widened like saucers. I could see the wheels rustily turning (with smoke) in his head. I meant for him to see it. He thought I was showing him a gun, calmed down and wisely decided to GTFO. It might as well have been a .44 magnum in his eyes. Idiot. It was a knife, and a token distraction at that. I even had plausible deniability. The real gun was actually in the other hand. Stage magicians use this bit of psychology all of the time. It's called misdirection. To make one hand invisible, move both.

Before you say, "don't show it or talk about it, when it's time just use it...." well... listen to this.

He backed down. What the idiot didn't know is that it was a ruse... a bluff, a play. I had him gamed from before the starting bell. My other hand was already wrapped around my .22 mag Black Widow. It would have magically appeared out of nowhere and I most certainly would have blasted him if he'd made a move. He was (as they said in Vietnam) target fixated upon my knife handle. I don't think he even knew it wasn't a gun. His universe shrank and he wasn't even thinking about my other hand. You simply just don't act the way he was acting in small town country stores where he is insulting and threatening your neighbors and family members. The cash clerk smiled at me later (I had a fling with her back in college) and thanked me for not shooting him. He was quietly arrested for vagrancy. Funny: she thought it was a gun, too, based on what the bum said.  She actually saw nothing other than me looking slightly irritated and ignoring a soon-to-be slam visitor. The only person standing in a position to actually see it was the a-hole... the only person who needed to see it. This concept can be called limited observation or controlled observation. Nobody else even saw anything out of the ordinary, just a guy irritated at an aggressive bum in a country store.

"I was paying for my stuff, of course I reached into my pockets."

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
--Unknown, multiple accreditations.

From the corner of my eye, I never stopped watching him. Maybe he thought I actually wasn't paying attention. My thumb was already on the hammer. Misdirection at its finest. I "ignored him." Yeah. He "wasn't worth it." Psychology again. I've made posts about psychology as a weapon before, but don't feel I made my point yet.

The bum almost died. He was a heartbeat from active gunfire. I have met better bums than him and he gave bums a bad name. Freaking jailbird. The cops didn't even talk to me, they just talked to the cash girl and then went straight to the security cam footage. It showed the a-hole bum gesturing threateningly and people turning away... trying to ignore him. The cops read that one with their eyes shut.

I had probably about 3000x the threat level when I lived in New Orleans. Dam*, that's a dangerous town.

Know the game and own it before it starts or else you're at dire risk. Read about the ninjitsu concept of metsubishi and tell me that perception isn't key.

Last question. How big is the knife of which I've posted a pic? It's the knife I showed that guy who was busted for vagrancy (translation: convenient excuse) and I didn't even draw anything except psychology. This stuff doesn't come from military or LEO training, though I've done both; it springs from the mind of an intelligent and educated human being. There's no classroom for this. Sink or swim, it's called life.

"Wolves are bigger when you're scared."
--TGJ, NAA forums

[Kevin55]

I didn't include both 22lr and 22mag graphs in my post above.  It's fixed and here are the links.  Looking at the graphs, it is easy to see how barrel lenght affects 22mag, while 22lr varies more on brand.
Graphs. 22mag and 22lr
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/2013data/22magME.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/2011graphs+/22ME.html

Sure it's TV, but one of the funniest scenes ever.
Denny Crane and gun control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KvO-8IvoCI

[redhawk4]

TGJ  - You may find the gun in your hand looking smaller and less formidable in a scary situation, but I bet it still looks awful big to the guy looking down the business end of it - size is definitely going to be relative.


Kevin - loved the gun control video. I know it's just the movies, but it must be very disconcerting to pull a gun on someone and then them not to immediately cower in fear and be submissive. I used to work with a guy who was a Captain in the British Commandos. He told me a story of how one night he and his Sergeant Major were leaving a bar and were confronted by some local hoodlums one wielding a knife. I'm sure we can all picture a grizzled Sergeant Major in the Commandos, but I can't type the cockney accent, you'll have to imagine that. He just looked at the guy and said "Oh look . . . he's got a little knife".  I'm sure at this point that knife suddenly started to look very little to the BG, and while he was thinking about it, the Sergeant Major's boot collided at high speed with his rib cage, putting him on the ground in considerable pain - the others left at that point leaving the the two Commandos to return to their barracks.

[RogueTS1]

Would have loved to been a spectator to that scene. Would have made my month for entertainment.

[I]

I'd love to see a First Sergeant/Sgt Major beat someone down to defend another military member. I'd buy him a fifth of Scotch or something.

[nastruck]

You sur do right purdy TwoGun!!!!   

[redhawk4]

Would have loved to been a spectator to that scene. Would have made my month for entertainment.

My friend, the Captain, did admit to "puckering up" a little when first confronted, so even he was taken a back by the SM's casual demeanor and classic one liner.

[SteveZ-FL]

We used to refer to the doubt/fear during confrontation syndrome as the "pucker factor."

Does the mini feel like a pipsqueak weapon? It will if you never train and practice with it.  That goes whether you carry a mini, two or three of them, or a half-dozen mixed calibers.  Training and practice is everything, so muscle memory combined with clear recognition of the situation kicks in when needed.  Just carrying and talking about how to handle a firearm may be more dangerous than not carrying at all.  Carry without training and practice is the real SD delusion.

Every weapon regardless of advertising and hype has its advantages and limitations.  Knowing them and training accordingly is what really protects you in an SD situation.

[TwoGunJayne]

Training and shot placement above all else. The round will work, but only in the right place. For everything else, there is "situational awareness." It doesn't matter if you've got a .50 Desert Eagle if you didn't notice you were about to need it.

.22 mag or even LR from a short barrel works against two-leggers. It's proven. The problem is that a lot of the statistics people throw out a whole lot of meaningful data and "cherry pick" to fit their own theories. One shot stop with .22 mag is quite possible. The stats people ususally throw out head, neck, and spine shots or lump them in with a "cylinder dump" all over the place.