Stopping Power

[G50AE]

The USA has its Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP,) through which you can normally buy guns and ammo. During the Obama years, they didn't have much to sell for some reason.

Therefore, Obama is an idiot. (and Hillary Clinton, too)

That's because their sources of supply are subject to limitations that the ordinary market does not have to adhere to.  CMP sells surplus military arms, Garands, M1 Carbines, Krags, and other formerly military rifles.  There are only so many of these available.  It would be nice if CMP were able to obtain handguns as well, 1911's, Berettas, revolvers and so forth, but I don't see that happening.

[Craigt]

My father worked in the 1960s with an American man who fought in Korea.  (Both engineers).  This man was once in a fire fight using a Chinese rifle while the Korean soldier was shooting at him with an American rifle.  Just a semi-humorous anecdote.

What they found in the Korean fighting is that whoever got the first shot of nearly always won the fight.  The Americans trained to shoot first.  This probably included continuing to shoot until the threat was no longer there.  With that technique it would make sense that more rounds per second would be helpful.

[G50AE]

My father worked in the 1960s with an American man who fought in Korea.  (Both engineers).  This man was once in a fire fight using a Chinese rifle while the Korean soldier was shooting at him with an American rifle.  Just a semi-humorous anecdote.

What they found in the Korean fighting is that whoever got the first shot of nearly always won the fight.  The Americans trained to shoot first.  This probably included continuing to shoot until the threat was no longer there.  With that technique it would make sense that more rounds per second would be helpful.

Thanks for that anecdote craigt and welcome to the forum.

[dk]

SOPSAX I agree with with your analysis on stopping power and the mental disposition of the person being shot.Seen it many times as a LEO.

[TwoGunJayne]

Intelligence is the ability for one to learn something, no matter the subject. Education is merely that; the act of being schooled, depending on the topic of conversation, the subject may or may not matter.

Ex: all the PhD's you can gain do not make one any smarter than what God gave one when born; they merely make one more educated. In the scheme of things; one could audit every class a certain PhD attended and never be awarded the doctorate paper and still be just as educated as the one to whom the PhD was awarded.

A cave man with a 180 IQ is more intelligent than Einstein with an IQ of 160. He may not have the education to make a nuclear bomb/reactor but he is still more intelligent.

I mostly agree with you, but "I almost learned something" sounds like something Albert Einstein would have said, then he'd get up the next day and take another crack at it.

I get the feeling that Nicola Tesla may have almost learned something... once or twice maybe?

Seem to have hit a raw nerve. You missed the point. I was not disparaging a lack of a college degree, merely pointing out that 'close' only counts in horseshoes.

You're forgetting hand grenades and hydrogen bombs.

Being out numbered twenty + to forty + to one YES you want to spray . Spray the BEJESUS out of them , spray till you can't spray no more . Then BOMB they back into the , not so far away , STONEAGE . Snipers have their own purpose . As we have all seen nice guys NEVER win they only have to come back and do it again and again with still no results overall .

Have any battles been won this way? I imagine that it makes the combatants feel better when they can shoot hundreds of rounds and hope to hit an enemy that they cannot see, but have any battles been won with that tactic? Not taking about ambushes where the enemy fades away because that was their plan. We can say we drove them off with our firepower, but if that was their plan from the beginning, did we win the skirmish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

Sort of. I don't really call the Miami Bullet Fest of '86 a clean-cut victory for the fed LEOs.

[RogueTS1]

I would not say my statement claims, "I almost learned something." One having come close to completing say a PhD has learned a lot, he simply has not accomplished much. I believe my statement to be more along the lines of, "I almost accomplished something."

Not to say that learning a lot is not an accomplishment, just not necessarily in the scheme of our conversation; or society's conversation for that matter.

In general I support your thinking on the above matter TGJ.

[TwoGunJayne]

No worries, sir.

'Tis better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all. I wouldn't really call it failure, just a fascinating lifetime's change of course. Life is 100% about transitions. There's no class on how to take that journey.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking that caused them."

-Albert Einstein.

So anyway, earlier I mentioned a historical FBI altercation that contributed to the "larger handgun" situation for the fed types. When presented with the 9mm handgun platform whilst whispering "stopping power" to the techs, one thing led to another and now we have the 10mm and .40 s&w family.

There is just one problem: Without proper shot placement, a larger gun doesn't really help all that much. It's still a handgun, still with an order of magnitude less muzzle energy than a rifle.

Caliber difference between 9mm and .40? It's POINT ZERO FOUR FIVE inches. That's .045 inches. Does it really help that much?

Keep in mind that 9mm +P+ rounds perform about as well as the .40, but the .40 has reduced mag capacity. .40 has a higher default chamber pressure than plain jane standard 9mm.

As far as dead bad guys, 9mm +P+, .40 s&w, and .45 acp +p function almost identically. Interesting, huh?

[SteveZ-FL]

My father worked in the 1960s with an American man who fought in Korea.  (Both engineers).  This man was once in a fire fight using a Chinese rifle while the Korean soldier was shooting at him with an American rifle.  Just a semi-humorous anecdote.

What they found in the Korean fighting is that whoever got the first shot of nearly always won the fight.  The Americans trained to shoot first.  This probably included continuing to shoot until the threat was no longer there.  With that technique it would make sense that more rounds per second would be helpful.

Not necessarily.  Firing more rounds per second also means runnng out of ammo quickly.  When that happens, and resupply is even just a couple minutes away (never works that way), it's a mighty lonely feeling.  If the other person is prudent in their ammo consumption rate compared to you, they smile and you.......

[TwoGunJayne]

That sounds like why we went to 3-round burst on the 16/m4 except for special operations.

[SteveZ-FL]

That sounds like why we went to 3-round burst on the 16/m4 except for special operations.

Back in the M14 day, ammo resupply was taught as happening  at 15 minutes (again, very unrealistic) after contact initiated and basic load was 100 rounds.  When the M16 came on the scene it was initially the same, and that plan fizzled because "squeeze" became "bursts" and it didn't take more than a couple minutes to eat up 100 rounds (actually less, since magazines didn't work well with more than 18 rounds).  After some shaky ammo-less situations guys started carrying extra bandoliers of cardboard boxed ammo and as many magazines as they could acquire.  Logisticians had a helluva time trying to keep up with the ammo consumption rate. 

Times change, logistics plans change, tactics change and equipment is modified somewhat. Lessons learned the hard way.

[RogueTS1]

Shot placement; the most important factor in any gun fight, period.

[TwoGunJayne]

Shot placement; the most important factor in any gun fight, period.

Over and over and over again, this this this. Yes, sir.

We agree 100%. 

[cfsharry]

Easy to say but hard to do when under duress. 
Heard a story about a guy who put five 45-70 caliber bullets into a Whitetail Deer, when hunting, before the deer went down. Not outstanding shot placement.  Would the deer have been hit at all if it had been shooting back? 
Sometimes we rely too much on platitudes.
Just my thinking.

[sopsax]

I attended the FBI National Academy in the late '70's, a graduate-level three-month course at Quantico, VA for local, county, and state LEO's around the world. For one class, I tried to do a paper on the percentage of shooting hits achieved in stressful situations by LEO's around the country.

Because of the lack of public information available (agencies hold this kind of info close to the vest), I had to query previous FBI-NA attendees in various agencies across the country.

The un-scientific results were consistent with what I'd heard for years. The shooters hit about once in every seven shots in field shootings. This was at a time when semi-auto pistols were not as prevalent among LEO's as they are today. I'd guess that the hit-ratio is even lower in the pray-and-spray world in which we live now. Yes, agencies try to discourage un-necessary shots (make each shot count and account for each shot fired, etc.), but with 15 to 17 rounds in a magazine, we all know what might happen.

Shot placement, indeed. Oh, that is a lofty goal, and it is certainly a factor in stopping-power debates, but more theoretical than achievable, I suspect. sopsax

[TwoGunJayne]

Easy to say but hard to do when under duress. 
Heard a story about a guy who put five 45-70 caliber bullets into a Whitetail Deer, when hunting, before the deer went down. Not outstanding shot placement.  Would the deer have been hit at all if it had been shooting back? 
Sometimes we rely too much on platitudes.
Just my thinking.

Summary: After sucessfully blowing away its vitals on the first shot, the only thing left to stop it faster was a spine or brain hit. Yeah. I agree that it's not easy to do that on something that's much faster than you without the element of surprise.

When you shoot a calm animal, they drop. Vitals shots actually work properly. They might not even be able to take a step.

When you shoot a fully adrenalized mammal, it is unbelievable what happens. This was the point I was trying to make. Humans are mammals and I don't actually like talking about shooting humans. Just call it "the same thing." Call me a hunter. Call me a bad hunter, even. I don't mind.

Whatever. Anyway, it's hard to get the lead right on a large slow moving bullet when you're shooting something with better acceleration than Usain Bolt.

A human moving that fast would result in 100% missed shots. Good thing nobody's that fast. Not even Usain Bolt. (31 ft/sec^2, nearly 1g of acceleration, 27mph top speed.)  The top speed of a deer is over 40 mph. Even he can't outsprint a whitetail.

http://io9.com/the-physics-of-usain-bolts-world-record-100-meter-dash-924744818

You can rib me and say I'm a lousy shot. I don't mind. By the by, I'm definitely not the best shot in the world. I cannot walk on water, either. (Unless I have a speed boat, then that's called "barefooting.") I'm not John Rambo, nor John Wayne, Tom Mix, nor any of that.

The point was that all rounds other than the first were 100% wasted. The creature was already dead... just didn't know it yet. The only target left was the central nervous system. The heart and one lung were wonder jello; they turned into goop that you could pour into a bowl. Another shot to the vitals would have done nothing at all as the diaphragm was already punctured and the thoracic cavity had 2 very large holes (entrance and exit.) One lung left is no lung left once the thoracic cavity is compromised like this, even if the heart were 100% intact. With effort, I could fit my fist down most of the internal wound channel through the meat. From the outside, it didn't look that bad as the skin is rather stretchy and tends to "pop back." Meat and bone are not so fortunate, though the diaphragm muscle seems to pop back more like the hide.

Stopping power? Blow out the heart and compromise the chest cavity. It won't take long after that.

[RogueTS1]

Aim small, miss small. I know easier said than done but if one looks at the concept of this statement it holds true for any shooting situation. The defining parameters of small simply change depending on the external circumstances.

[Dinadan]

I think I'm finally done with the above post, so I'm probably not going to edit it.

Let the cheap shots commence!

My only comment is that it is a bit long. I have a sneaking suspicion that posts of that length are not actually read in their entirety by most readers. I may be wrong.

[TwoGunJayne]

A cute brunette told me once that its sexier to write like a woman's bathing suit. Long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to keep it interesting.

Sorry for being so 1800s.

[OV-1D]

 TwoGun the brunette was wrong and Dinadan is right . Hope that didn't hurt too much but shut up  .

[bbgun]

If you want real stopping power use a good pepper spray.  Instant halt. Then give 'em a few kicks.  A lot less noise, paper work, police and court hearings, etc.  Then if they try to get up, maybe you can give 'em a little Sidewinder kiss on the kneecap.   

[sopsax]

BBgun: Obviously you haven't seen a person blow right through a load of pepper spray (or CS gas or whatever the formula-of-the-day may be), taser-darts, baton strikes, blackjack strikes, flashlight strikes, rubber bullets, or real bullets.  Of all the non-lethal methods I've used (and observed first-hand) the old bar-arm control (choke) was probably the most consistently effective at immediate fight-stopping. Yet in today's world, choke-holds are now relegated to situations requiring lethal force only.

Suffice to say that 1) there are no miracle bullets, and 2) there is no guaranteed way to stop someone from fighting, assaulting, or running away. Even lethal force can fail. So when a self-defense situation comes to you, be prepared for multiple responses. sopsax

[TwoGunJayne]

BBgun: Obviously you haven't seen a person blow right through a load of pepper spray (or CS gas or whatever the formula-of-the-day may be), taser-darts, baton strikes, blackjack strikes, flashlight strikes, rubber bullets, or real bullets.  Of all the non-lethal methods I've used (and observed first-hand) the old bar-arm control (choke) was probably the most consistently effective at immediate fight-stopping. Yet in today's world, choke-holds are now relegated to situations requiring lethal force only.

Suffice to say that 1) there are no miracle bullets, and 2) there is no guaranteed way to stop someone from fighting, assaulting, or running away. Even lethal force can fail. So when a self-defense situation comes to you, be prepared for multiple responses. sopsax

I actually like the taste of CS gas. It's a bit salty and reminds me of eating a lot of pickled jalapenos and accidentally rubbing your eyes. Don't listen to me. I actually enjoyed the CS Gas Chamber. Now think about someone like me ignoring your pepper spray. I can gargle tobasco sauce and can quickly drink down most sizes of their bottles. In the desert for a laugh, I've been known to spray pepper spray on sandwiches before. 10% OC is the best. 20+% is a lie, nobody really makes it that potent as OC is actually a waxy substance that's very very highly resistant to spraying. It won't come out of the bottle. 15% is supposed to be "bear spray, not for use on humans." Ever ask a bear which spray he prefers? The only problem is that the UV dye in some of those sprays really gives it an off-taste.

Remember, always shake your pepper spray before you squirt it on your sandwiches.

Too bad choke is now verboten to the LEOs. It works. That is a very effective method.

1. no miracle bullets
2. no guaranteed way to stop someone

We agree 100%.

Even lethal force can fail.

100%

Happy Fourth of July! Lets remember the Constitution of the United States, the Bill of Rights, the sacrifice of everyone who made all this possible, and the most important part: We have inherited all this. If we fu*k around, we LOSE IT FOREVER.

Let's get America right as Americans this year. Please.

Happy 4th!

[OV-1D]

Ditto on that Sopsox ,,,,,,,,,,,,, avoidance is everyones best tactic . My experiences have taught me you have a better chance of being hit by lightning than to being in a real life kill or be killed situation unless you have the misfortune to work for  blessed law enforsement or our blessed military .     Happy Fourth everyone , be safe .

[bbgun]

Sopsax,    I'm not talking about CS or chemical mace or any of those things of which you speak.  I'm talking about a hit with UDAP or Sabre Red.  You are not going to run through that sober or drunk or drugged, unless you can run with your eyes closed. 

[sopsax]

Don't count on it, bbgun. There are ALWAYS exceptions when dealing with the human animal. sopsax

[grayelky]

I pretty much agree with you folks, with one minor exception:
You interrupt the central nervous system, the body shuts down. Cut the cord, separate the brain from it, the body quits working.

[TwoGunJayne]

I pretty much agree with you folks, with one minor exception:
You interrupt the central nervous system, the body shuts down. Cut the cord, separate the brain from it, the body quits working.

Grayelky? When the S hits the F, you're welcome at my bunker. There is only one way to stop the army of unknown assassins. Sever the head or destroy the brain. Anything else just takes too long.

The problem with training and indoctrination that begins at the onset of the outbreak is that it just takes too long to get the newbies ready. In WW2, they had this fantasy that the training techniques were so effective that the troops could learn them enroute to the combat zone. Sorry. It's not quite that fast to gain a lifetime's experience.

By the way, what kind of dried foods do you prefer? 

[TwoGunJayne]

Sopsax,    I'm not talking about CS or chemical mace or any of those things of which you speak.  I'm talking about a hit with UDAP or Sabre Red.  You are not going to run through that sober or drunk or drugged, unless you can run with your eyes closed.

There is a technique for that. You fold your arm at a 45 degree angle and place your nose into the crook of your elbow. Now slit your eyes almost shut. Hold your breath.

You're now ready for receiving that cloud of CONE SPRAY that just came back on you due to that 7 mph wind. Eating your own spray should be a fun and joyous occasion.

Let the perps freak out that you've trained yourself to enjoy it. 

Sabre, Fox Labs, these are good choices. There are other techniques to combine with simple spray technique.

SEE ALSO: Tigerlight. The Tigerlight has its own NSN number, if that tells you anything.

Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare sieze the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art.
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?

When the stars threw down their spears,
And watered heaven with their tears,
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

--William Blake

Disclaimer: I said nothing, I know nothing, I saw nothing. Disregard the above rambling post as I'm obviously drunk. 

[G50AE]

Nice poem.  Haven't seen that one in a while.

[TwoGunJayne]

It's a classic. 

[the iron horse]

Interesting thread going here. A lot of good points.

Two thoughts

First on shot placement: Does anyone remember the cable show from a few years ago. I can't remember the title
of the show but every week it took warriors from two different time periods and paired them off in a computer generated battle. The program ran the scenario a few thousand times to come up with who would most likely be the winner.
Once they had Al Capone's Gang square off with the Jesse James Gang.  Auto pistols and Tommy guns verses  single shot six revolvers.
The James Gang won overwhelmingly.....all because of careful shot placement.

Second, I agree with many here that the NAA Mini's best attribute is its ease of carry and concealment. I carry mine everywhere I go, including inside my house. An elderly couple's home was invaded nearby several years ago. They were beaten, but not killed. The elderly man said the intruders came rushing in so fast he never had a chance to get to his shotgun that was in a closet in a back bedroom.

Sitting here right now typing this...I have my Mini in my right pocket.

If God forbid something ever happens, at least I can fire off a few rounds while I'm heading to the closet for the 12 ga.

[RogueTS1]

Show is called "The Deadliest Warrior."