.32NAA: JHP or FMJ for self defense round?

[cedarview kid]

After a couple of years on the fence, I've finally decided to go with an NAA Guardian in .32NAA for self defense, after using .380ACP as my primary carry for a long time.

   

   I've actually been using FMJ for my carry ammo, though, because I've been concerned about lack of penetration--and ball ammo works better in my DB380 as well. (I have a Guardian .380, but haven't been carrying it, although I did before I got my DB380.)

   

   But, with the increased ballistics of the .32NAA, I'm thinking I should go with JHP. Anyone have comments on that?

   

   Also, It is really worth dropping the caliber down a .32-caliber bullet to get increased velocity? Does the .32NAA really have better stopping power than the .380ACP? I mean, that's kind of the point of the .32NAA in the first place, but is it a valid argument?

[tom]

Since you mention that ball works better in your DB380, I assume you get jams with JHP.  The .32 NAA would almost certainly solve that problem because bottle neck cases feed much better than straight cases.

[cedarview kid]

Yup, I get jams with JHP in my DB380. Doesn't like 'em much. From what I've heard, that's common with this model. Ball ammo works great.

   

   I agree that the bottleneck would certainly help with that. Good point.

[lohman446]

If I am at the "edge" of having EITHER expansion or pentration I will do everything I can to assure penetration.  

   

   Anything less than 9MM I beleive in shooting FMJ to assure penetration, reliable feeding is just a side bonus.  All the expansion in the world does you nothing without penetration, and I think these guns are borderline to have both.

[cedarview kid]

Good points, Lohman--which is why I've gone with FMJ in my .380 (along with the better feeding issues).

   

   Well, I just did it: I bought my new NAA Guardian in .32NAA from the local classified ads. I was ectastic when I found the serial number to be number ten. Not that it really matters, but many of  the pieces in my collection have low serial numbers, and this one is lower than my Guardian .380, which was the first .380 sold retail from the factory. It's also lower than my Early-Bird Earl and my break tops. Looks to be in practically mint condition, too.

   

   I also got 40 rounds of Corbon JHP and about 25 rounds of FMJ, an IWB leather holster, a leather belt holster, a fabric concealed pack (kind of like the DeSantis that used to come with Guardians, but not as nice), and Crimson Trace grips--all for $375. I think it was a pretty good deal. Plus no tax or paperwork.

   

   Very pleased with myself. :-)

   

   So, not counting the large-caliber revolvers that NAA used to make, I think I have every caliber from the NAA line, except .25NAA, including the .17's.

[westerly1965]

Naa that was an awesome deal!  I would be proud of myself to if I were you!

[heyjoe]

let us know what the difference in ecoil is between the 380 and 32 naa. also accuracy. good deal you made.

[grayelky]

In my humble opinion, you need to do your own experimentation and see which you feel will work best for you.

   

   Try both. You may find the HP does not feed as well as the FMJ. It is not likely, but still possible. Check the Box 'O Truth web site, see how he constructed his box, and get a wheel barrow full of milk jugs and test away. If the HP gets the penetration you are looking for, go with it, if not, the FMJ is the best choice.

   

   My personal philosophy is this: If a HP does not expand, you now have a FMJ. If the HPs function, use them, if not, use an HP in the barrel and FMJ in the magazine.

   

   Why should you use HPs for self defense? Imagine standing in front of a pond, and the water is still and smooth. You toss a small pebble into the water and make small ripples that cascade across the surface, getting smaller as they radiate further from where the pebble landed. Now, once the surface is smooth again, toss a BIG rock into the water. You will see much larger "ripples", maybe even waves, radiate from the point where the rock landed. This is a lose translation as to what happens inside the body. A FMJ makes small "waves" of shock, effecting the various organs inside. An HP that expands is like a big rock, creating much bigger waves of shock, effecting the internal organs much more violently, and further from the point of impact, as well as disturbing more of whatever is in it's path.

   

   When you are dealing with true stopping power, no handgun has enough to reliably STOP someone reliably. For that you need either a shotgun or a rifle. A handgun just does not have enough velocity to get the job done every time. Now with those thoughts in mind, remember the velocity is squared (I think) compared to bullet weight. If a given bullet is driven at a given velocity, then you increase the velocity, the energy is squared. I must stop here and point out I am no math professor. Go look up the velocity/energy formulas, and do the computation for your self. You can see where on paper the difference lies as to a 90 grain .355 bullet traveling at 850 feet per second vs. a 70 grain .312 bullet traveling at 1250 FPS. Yes, there is credit given for the .380 bullet's diameter vs the slightly smaller diameter of the .32

[cedarview kid]

Good comments, Grayelky. You are wise. :-)

   

   I now have a Guardian .32ACP, .380ACP, and .32NAA. I also have an almost brand new chronograph that I could use to examine real-life velocities from all three of these. Unfortunately, real life gets in the way of getting all 4 of these items out to the range. I need to do it, though.

   

   I don't have ballistic gel and have never used it, but I think I can do some good tests to satisfy my needs, as well as my curiosity. Sounds like good fun, too. ;)

[grayelky]

If you can do the speed trap thing with the bullets, locate the formula on the net, then you can do your own math to figure "stopping power".

   

   Ballistic gel is nice, but messy. As long as you use the same medium for all 3 calibers, you can pretty much determine what the relative penetration is. Check something like the Box 'O Truth to get some idea of what a particular load did in his tests, then you can make some fairly accurate S.W.A.G.s as to which of your loads will work best for you.

[lohman446]

I don't know Gray, while I agree with your conclusions that handguns are poor to depend on I think your example is flawed.

   

   The larger rock causes more ripple0s because it is heavier and carries more energy.  I am assuming minimal energy difference between a FMJ and a JHP bullet out of the same firearm.

[cedarview kid]

My new .32NAA package deal:

   

   

   

   

[grayelky]

Naa_collector

   Nice find! I would have made that purchase at that price.

   

   Lohman446-

   

   I agree with you. It is not one of my more accurate analogies, but as far as energy transfer, it creates a mental picture that most people can relate to. You are correct in both rocks will be traveling about the same velocity, the great splash and subsequent ripples is due to the greater mass of the larger rock. It does relate in the sense the shock waves of the energy transfer of the expanding HP bullet will create much bigger shock waves in the body, thus increasing the chances of stopping an assailant. I should have taken the time to type it all out, and I suspect it would have been a little clearer. Maybe even making a little more sense to those who are some what familiar with ballistics and energy transfer, etc.

   

   I would like a better analogy. If you can come up with one, I would appreciate hearing it. I use this one at least 3 times a week when trying to explain to people new to shooting and self defense the concept of to use hollow point bullets as opposed to the much cheaper full metal jacket ones:

   

   "After all, they are the same, aren't they?"  

   

   Well, no, not exactly...

[lohman446]

Interesting.  When people ask me why I think penetration withoout expansions is good enough I hold up a skewer.  I point out that its about .22 caliber.  I ask them if I ran them through with it semi-randomly towards the center of the chest cavity if they felt they would still have the ability to carry out a considered attack.   Very few think they would.  Oddly enough they will dismiss a .22 as an effective weapoon.  .32 and .380 are likely to go through and through with a FMJ - I would think they would be effective enough given no other option.

[grayelky]

If I don't have my LR mini or my Wasp .22 mag in my pocket, I have a .32 ACP. I feel it is as good as a .380 ACP

[therevjay]

"Lohmans" skewer is a very good example of the benefits of penetration. I wish I had thought of it first.

   

   Of course penetration AND expansion is what we really want. However I don't think you can have both with .22-.25-.32 and probably not .380 .32NAA? maybe. But to be sure of a sufficent amount of both I think .38spl/9mm luger is the bottom line.

   

   All my semis are collectables and can't be trusted to feed HP's reliably anyway. So for me it's a easy choice.

   

   As far as .32 compared to .380? Not much real differance there .380 is SLIGHTLY larger Dia. SLIGHTLY heavier bullet wt. and SLIGHTLY higher vel.. But then you most always give up 1 rd.(sometimes 2) in the mag when you pick .380 over .32

[mrjikey]

What do you think of the crimson laser grips? I've thought about them for my .32NAA, but it looked like they would add some bulk to the handle the way it surrounds the whole handle.  

   

   Great buy by the way! Mines my daily carrier.

[cedarview kid]

I actually like the laser grip more than I thought I would. I never really had any interest in purchasing the laser grip and I didn't figure them much into the deal, except for the thought that maybe I could sell it--but it's pretty cool. If I grip the gun normally, the laser comes on. It feels very natural, although I must admit that I prefer wooden grips.

   

   They do make the grip of the gun a bit wider. Probably more so than with wooden grips. However, the previous owner wet-molded the belt holster to fit the laster grip and he actually did a pretty good job. The grip on the gun actually feels pretty good, and I have smallish hands.

   

   So, I may keep the laser on it. After I do some reliability testing, I plan to use this as my primary carry.

   

   Oh, and btw, I reported the ammo I got in the deal incorrectly. I actually got about 54 rounds of JHP and 15 rounds of FMJ. That's better than what I reported. I noticed an extra box of JHP's that I hadn't seen initially.

[grayelky]

For my $.02 worth, for a close up and personal gun like the Guardian, Laser grips are of minimal importance. I have them on my 3" 1911, but I did not have to pay for them (they were a gift). One of the most over looked uses is in developing hand-eye coordination. This can be done in your TV watching room, during commercials:

   1.) Make sure the gun is unloaded

   2.) Make sure your gun is unloaded

   3.) Pick a target at random

   4.) From a low ready/ waist high level, w/o using the sights, look at your target, point the gun at it as if you wanted to shoot it, and activate the Laser. Now you can determine how far you would have missed your assailant. You will be amazed at how quickly you can get your gun pointing where you want your bullet to land

   5.) You did follow #1 and #2 above, didn't you?

   6.) Enjoy!

[cedarview kid]

And if Robert Goulet happened to show up on your TV, you could violate rules #1 & #2 above, change your random target in #3 to Robert Goulet, and fire away! We're all Elvis wannabe's anyway, right? (OK, not me. Really.)

   

   On a more serious note, Grayelky, that actually sounds like a good idea. I'll have to try that. I like to fondle every new gun I buy in front of the TV anyway. ;)

[westerly1965]

Dar if you decided to sell that laser grip and belt holster in the future I might be interested.  I am pretty sure both would fit my .380.

[cedarview kid]

I'm sure they would, Westerly. I'm thinking maybe I'll keep them, although that wasn't my original plan when I decided to purchase the package.

   

   I'll let ya know.

[mrjikey]

Sounds good. I like the crimson grips on my wife's ruger LCR. I may have to look into those in the future when a little extra cash is available  

   

   I carry the hollow points in mine because I like the expansion they give. I figure 8" of penetration after four layers of denim with .5" expansion is pretty darn good for such a small package. I think I cronographed those rounds at just over 1,400 fps if I remember right.

[therevjay]

If .32NAA HP ammo (I think there is only 1 maker)truely gives 8" of penetration AND expands (reasonably reliably)after going through 4 layers of denim. Then I think they have created the almost perfect small cal. pistol.

[jsan]

I would like to see Gold Dot or even DPX bullets being used in the .32NAA factory ammo.  While the Corbon ammo is pretty hot, tests done by Brassfetcher suggest fragmentation and less penetration than what the round is really capable of.  I've shot a few rounds of .32NAA into wet dirt/mud and the recovered bullets had all expanded, but most had lost some bits of lead and all had jacket separation to some extent - one jacket had completely separated.  I am not a ballistic expert by any means, but I understand that weight retention and a bullet holding together often results in deeper penetration.  I'm all for rattling up a badguy's insides with shrapnel from a fragmenting bullet, but I would feel better knowing my bullet goes where I put it and it goes in as deep as possible while expanding and holding together.