New inherited gun: Winchester 90 pump in .22 WRF

[MR_22]

Got a new gun today! And this one was FREE!

My wife's uncle died a few months ago and he had quite a gun collection. His will said he wanted his guns divided amongst his brothers and sisters, so my wife's father got a few. He doesn't really want to keep them all, so he offered one to me.

I got the choice of a Ruger Mark ?? (sorry, didn't check), a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine (VERY TEMPTING!) and the one I got: a Winchester Model 1890 in .22 WRF with octagonal barrel. It's not in excellent condition, but the bore is nice. It also has some guy's name etched on the the right side of the receiver and his initials on the other side. A distracting flaw, for sure, but not a huge one.

I also got a bag with 1050 rounds of Winchester WRF rounds.

The patent dates on the barrel read 1890, 1892, 1906, and 1911, but the serial number supposedly dates it to 1906, so something is wrong with that. In any case, I'm very pleased. I seems to be in shooting condition as well. The finish is not excellent, but it's not bad for a 100-year-old gun. I checked the bore and was surprised how nice and clean it was. I definitely believe it's shootable--which is good, because I want to shoot it.

The value I've seen is all over the board, from a couple hundred to maybe a thousand. So, I have no idea, but I'm not really interested in selling, so it doesn't matter. So anyway, Happy New Gun Day!

[bud]

That would have been my choice!!  I'm envious. 

[NOTL21]

Are you going to take it to a local gunsmith and have them check it out?  They also fire it as part of the inspection.

[MR_22]

Are you going to take it to a local gunsmith and have them check it out?  They also fire it as part of the inspection.

Yeah, I've seriously thought about that, but I made an examination myself and it looks clean and solid. I checked the bore and was quite surprised how clean and smooth it was. The rifling looks excellent. I've convinced myself that it's probably a good shooter--and my wife's uncle had the stash of 1050 rounds for it, so I'm thinking he probably fired it, too.

Couldn't hurt to have it checked out, though.

And thanks, Bud. I'm quite pleased. I won't be 100% pleased with it until I shoot it, though, although I'm half tempted NOT to. As such, tho, it's now my oldest gun--although I'm not quite sure when it was made, since the serial says 1906, but the barrel has a 1911 patent date. I wonder if the barrel was replaced later...?

[TwoGunJayne]

sooooooooo.....

No disconnector on that rifle, eh? (shhhhh! I saw nothing!) 

[MR_22]

Disconnector? As in full auto?

LOL. Pretty hard to make a pump into full auto.

[TwoGunJayne]

Our batty friends at the eieio say that "slam fire" is full auto.

Technically, you have an "out" if the thing specifically falls under Curio and Relic (C&R) or was made before a certain date.

New versions of pump rifles have a trigger disconnector. Old originals might "slam fire," that is to say that you hold the trigger and work the pump. The new stuff requires a trigger release then another pull to fire as the bolt comes into battery.

Is it stupid for this to be regulated/banned? Yes. Aside from "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED," what does this do for you that a semiauto doesn't already do better and with removable mags? There is no way that someone slamming a pump is faster and/or with better accuracy than someone with a quick finger on a semi.

There I go again, expecting los federales to make sense.

[MR_22]

Hmm. Interesting.

Well, as far as I can determine, according to the serial number (same one in two places) my Winchester 1890 was manufactured in 1906. The barrel seems newer and has a deeper, darker bluing. It also has a patent date of 1911 on the barrel, so I'm assuming the barrel was replaced at some point.

I found out from another source that this model was called the Model 1890 prior to 1919 and just Model 90 after that point. Mine says Model 90 on the barrel, so I'm assuming the barrel was made after 1919. But the action appears to be from 1906.

As such, I cannot deny nor confirm what my gun will do. LOL. (I haven't even tried it, so I don't know. I plan to go shooting hopefully on Saturday.)

[cwlongshot]

VERY NICE!!

Also VERY, VERY common to find miss matched parts as Winchester had a extremely popular rifle with there pumps!!  The ammo is a huge plus especially today!!! 

Those old pumps could be fired VERY fast! I would avoid this as its hard on some old parts. I have a 1897 12g that's a screamer!!

I have a first year Winchester 62 that's been re barreled with a 62A barrel and for end.

Enjoy it!

CW

[MR_22]

Thanks, CW. I'm bummed I wasn't able to get it to the range on Saturday. We had an emergency preparedness fair for our community for 4 hours and I had a booth on using HAM Radio for local emergency communications. We had an excellent response from not only people in our area, but from lots of people all over the community who found out about our fair and attended it. This was our second year doing this and the word is apparently getting out.

I'm going to try to get out after work something this week.

It does appear that I've got a Frankensteined gun. but I don't mind. The barrel is one of the most important parts of the gun and it mine was replaced, then all the better. The bore is clean and bright, so that's all good.

[bleak_window]

The bag of ammo is a big help, since .22 WRF can be hard to find and expensive.

[MR_22]

The bag of ammo is a big help, since .22 WRF can be hard to find and expensive.

Especially now. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I'm glad the ammo stash came with it. It seems I'm collecting about a 1000 rounds for all of my guns.

[I]

1000 for all of your guns?

So that's like 3 rounds each gun? 

Realistically, I do not like to fall below 500 rounds per primary caliber that I've decided to stock. Rimfire normally got a x10 multiplier, but things get wild you know.

The last big shortage was .380 acp. I had a good stock before that and weathered the storm. It came back and I quietly hit 1000 rounds and called it a day. I acquired bullet molds and reloading dies. I have lead scrap. I have primers. I have powder.

I knew a fair bit before the Great .380 shortage. I leveraged that and acquired all of my loading gear for free or at fair market cost (non-gouging prices, some was gratis.) The nice thing about loading .380 is that you can turn around and use the same stuff to load 9mm.

If it's a rifle, I consider 1000 rounds for just that one gun a bit of overkill. Realistically in a TEOTWAWKI situation, if you needed 10,000 rounds to survive... you probably weren't going to make it anyway. It's planning, tactics, and strategy that gets you through that, not a round count... not a line item on an inventory.

[MR_22]

1000 for all of your guns?

So that's like 3 rounds each gun? 

LOL. No, 1000 rounds for EACH gun. Or, rather, for each caliber. So, if I have multiple .45's, I'm shooting for only 1000 rounds of .45.

[I]

You know you're serious when you group your .45s in different categories for different bullet diameters that are claimed to be ".45."

.440, .451, .458, so on, so forth...

[Kentucky Kevin]

Sweet score. I gunbrokered for a TD pump 22 Winchester that shoots SHorts(cb) longs, and lr

[MR_22]

You know you're serious when you group your .45s in different categories for different bullet diameters that are claimed to be ".45."

.440, .451, .458, so on, so forth...

LOL, I only have .45ACP and .45LC. And I guess .410, if that counts.

[TwoGunJayne]

It's always fascinated me how tube magazines and pump rifles get to shoot all the ammo types, but semis are left out in the cold almost 100% of the time as far as multiammo capability.

I wonder why I have never seen a removable tube mag?

[ikoiko]

Taxi, I think I hear your name being called.

[MR_22]

It's always fascinated me how tube magazines and pump rifles get to shoot all the ammo types, but semis are left out in the cold almost 100% of the time as far as multiammo capability.

I wonder why I have never seen a removable tube mag?

I think a semi-auto would work as well if he recoil of the different rounds would operate the action. I think that's your problem (as if you needed to be told what your problem is!).

A removable tube mag? Like, what, so youcould preload the tube and just insert it? Interesting.

My first rifle was a semi-auto tube-fed .22 Remington Nylon 66. I sure miss that gun. You shoved rounds up the butt instead of alongside the barrel, though. Sold it for $50 in 1987--one of the stupidest things I've ever done. It was a great gun. Jet black polymer stock with the Remington diamond on the forearm. Sigh.

[TwoGunJayne]

Never heard a bad word about the Nylon rifles.

Anyway, as far as cycling the action... my first .22 was a Remington tube fed semiauto. It cycles shorts, longs, and long rifles. It works with stuff like CCI Stingers as well. As a youngster, it impressed me how it was never cleaned, yet ate all ammo without complaint.

Trying the same thing in a stick-mag semi-auto is not going to work. The rounds don't go "straight into the chamber" from a mag. That's what the feed ramp is for. Super-high-speed cameras pointed at the cycling action show the rounds wobbling and bouncing up and down as they wander into the chamber on a semi-auto. It's a rare beast that shoots the cartridges in a straight line into the chamber. A gun of this design will cycle empty casings from a mag by racking the action. A semi auto stick mag gun like that could possibly fire multiple ammo types, provided it headspaces from the case rim and not the case mouth.

As such, rounds of differing length are going to freak out in a stick mag. It's due to the way the "feed lips" are in a typical mag. Rimless cartridges would work better, but those can't be different lengths as they headspace from the case mouth, not from the rim as in .22 rimfire.

As far as a removable tube mag, that'd be just as it sounds... A removable horizontal bullet tube to swap out. I see no reason why it wouldn't work, but there must be one... Nobody's made one, as far as I know. (I may be misinformed.) It seems like a good idea. There must be a reason none have hit the market. (As far as I know.)

[MR_22]

I've been known to not clean guns upon occasion... 8-0

I've seen tube speed loaders before. I think they were homemade and are just tubes with some sort of caps on the end. You take the cap off one end of the speed-loader tube and dump the contents down the tube. It doesn't work for tubes that have a side-insertion hole, typical for Winchester pumps, but it works for those where you remove the spring-loaded compression rod that goes back in over the loaded rounds. (Did that make sense?)

[Taxi]

Hi! he he! The Spencer rifle had a removable tube magazine, it had a wooden tubular magazine holder... I thought about removable magazine tubes once, in regards the metal storm system "which had them for the pistol version, I believe" in regards capacity i.e. In anything longer than a pistol sized magazine, it would be longer than a normal rifle magazine, er... In that the rounds are length ways, so 30 5.56mm's would be longer than the rifle sort of thing. Rotary tube magazines, were the solution clearly.
I am not sure but I think their may have been a sort of one for the Henry rifle, but it was more of a tube you poured in... There's the problem of pointy jacketed bullets resting against the next cartridges primer problem also, in tube mags. Think I once considered a removable tube mag for a contraption of mine, but I can't remember which one or why. A rotary metal storm magazine would be a pepper box in essence, can't have been that.

I did once say "With the sounds of your ammo crisis you should put your flint working skills into action elsewhere a 21st c auto revolver flintlock wouldn't go amiss by the sounds of it or a Wheelock for Buck rodgers with a tubular magazine full of lead balls, black powder operated wankel engine type chamber via a powder horn being screwed open upside down into the appropriate slot, wind it up." on here, might have been that he he...

No, it was a tube magazines inside normal magazines that was it, four metal storm type rounds in a cartridge sized tube, the tube being able to fit inside say a Bren gun magazine, then it chambered a tube per cycle so firing four sort of thing, then it would eject them.

Actually I think it was a shotgun, forget.

[Taxi]

I've been known to not clean guns upon occasion... 8-0

I've seen tube speed loaders before. I think they were homemade and are just tubes with some sort of caps on the end. You take the cap off one end of the speed-loader tube and dump the contents down the tube. It doesn't work for tubes that have a side-insertion hole, typical for Winchester pumps, but it works for those where you remove the spring-loaded compression rod that goes back in over the loaded rounds. (Did that make sense?)

A Henry rifle Mr22, I think.

[Taxi]

I've got it now "I think" because rimmed cartridges, headspace off the rim... The chamber could be the length of the longest cartridge, if the cartridges were the same width like the bullets i.e. .22 cap, short, long...

And because a tube magazine can hold any combination of the above cartridges, it would be a good idea.

That right? 

My immediate solution is a .22 rimfire Spencer rifle, with mini Spencer rifle magazine tubes.

Anyone know anything about the Spencer rifle i.e. Why that suggestion wouldn't work? He he.

[MR_22]

A Henry rifle Mr22, I think.

Could be. I think both of my Winchesters have the side-insertion hole. But You still have to remove the magazine rod. Hmm. I wonder if you can dump the rounds down the end, though. Probably can. I'll have to check.

[Taxi]

A real gem of a rifle you've got there Mr22, by the way 

[I]

Good grief, I won't even quote.

Anyway, the highest capacity long tube mags were horizontally with the barrel or diagonally through the stock.

There were speed loaders of many types, even paper sleeves.

There were cartridge boxes, techniques, even appropriate tools for getting this stuff in action.

The earliest repeating rifles that achieved any level of success were the "shove a few more in there" type. Fumbling invididual rounds was a fundamental leap ahead from earlier ignition-lock methods. The military concept of the "stripper clip" could simply be a roll of paper or thin cloth for the earliest repeating military rifles.

Strange how the earliest over-the-top successful military rifles were rimfire.

That Italian air gun of infamous military fame is another issue all together.

[MR_22]

A real gem of a rifle you've got there Mr22, by the way 

I agree. Thanks for the sentiments!

[Taxi]

I actually can't find a replica Spencer rifle in .22 rimfire out of interest, which I am quite surprised about given it was a rimfire rifle originally albeit in a larger calibre and it's of historic interest etc.

Be quite a good junior rifle perhaps, fairly safe action in that you have to cock the hammer, you can see inside the breech easily when cycled, and remove the mag.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwhLuhRWYyI

Seemingly the magazines were tubes, and you put the follower in after... I wonder what held the cartridges in the tubes.

[I]

... I wonder what held the cartridges in the tubes.

Being "young and full of beans," of course!

I wonder if I won't be forgiven for that quote?

[Taxi]

Be more dog 

"O2 Cellphone advert here, he's still going" to clarify.

[Taxi]

Scratch... No I mean the tubes, in the magazine pouch, what stopped the rounds from falling out when you withdrew one, yet allowed the cartridges to be chambered, was it wax or something.

The front cartridge burst through the seal, sort of thing under pressure from the follower or was there a mechanism.

[I]

You're forgetting that the tobacco cigarette was invented by a soldier exposed to paper cartridge technology. 

[TwoGunJayne]

Wood and paper tubes have been used as military speed loaders for those old repeating rimfire guns with the tube magazine in the stock. You just cram the magazine follower through the tube.

The cartridge boxes of the day could be tipped into the mag tube for quicker loading, as well. The lid was used to block most of the rounds and a finger was used to control the exposed row of cartridges. With training, a row of cartridges could be popped in fairly quickly and in a sustained fashion.