Zombie stopping pootential of NAA mini revolvers

[RogueTS1]

While I agree with all concerning the silliness of the Zombie ammo and guns; I believe Kale is attempting to profit from his testing etc.

   

   Hence I believe his testing is, like many other firearm related shows, attempting to be entertaining. Thus the humorous/juvenile canting in an attempt to make it fun for the viewers. I may be wrong but that was my impression.

   

   Any input Kale?

[grayelky]

Lohman446

   

   If you are concerned about using a modern, "high capacity" gun for self defense, and you are concerned a jury might interpret your use of a high capacity handgun or an "assault weapon" as an urge to kill someone, why not play it safe and resort to black powder. Surely no one could make that into something it is not. Better yet, do not use a firearm at all to defend yourself. Use a baseball bat. No, wait. Baseball bats are sometime used by thugs, get a broom stick and attempt to intimate them away. Surely that would protect you from a jury. It would have to show your intent was not to kill, but rather to shoosh the bad guy away so you would not be harmed. You just better hope none of his friends make fun of him and embarrass him for being shoosh away. I sure he would sue if they did.

   

   Everyone, go back and re-read the comments above. The majority of you are concerned about what might happen, or what could happen. Like Louie said, you will be sued. Period. It will happen. Don't let the fear of what might happen slow you down from protecting yourself and your family. I used the above example (at Lohman's expense - sorry) to show the line of thinking that can happen. Yes, all of the "expert" trainers and magazine writers, etc, will use the same basic scare tactics as the lawyers use to get you to adhere to their line of thinking, whether there is any reason for it or not. The more people talk about Joseph Gun Expert on the INTERNET and in publications, the more he can charge for his expert testimony to keep you out of jail, because now, everyone recognizes what a true authority Joseph Gun Expert realty is. Can anyone show a documented instance where some one went to jail or lost their home because they used hollow point ammunition in their gun? Don't let "What ifs" rule you. What if you are in the deer woods and get accosted by a gang of thugs, and you shoot one with your deer rifle? Now you have used a rifle to kill a person. Sure you were really deer hunting (note the sarcasm in my voice). We all know you just used that as a cover to go out and kill a real human being!! Or, if you use a pump shotgun to defend your home, why did you have to have 5 shells? Trying to kill everybody? You shot that poor lost young man, TWICE! If you had only shot him once, maybe he would still be alive. After all, he thought he was trying to get into his house, and his dad had changed the locks on him again.

   

   I guess if you are against the Zombie Slayer LCP, the Coyote Special is a no-no, too, huh?

[RogueTS1]

I think it comes down to the old saying, "It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

   

   motto of the story: just make sure you first have the oppurtunity to get to the aftermath of the encounter.

[lohman446]

Eh, I'm a "better safe than sorry" type of person.  While I understand what you are saying the civil penalties are something I have accepted as part of carrying or using a firearm.  The criminal penalties I would like to do everything reasonable to mitigate.  As I see no advantage to any of the firearms available over what I am already using I see no reason to take any chance with them.

[redhawk4]

Lohman, I have to agree with some of your comments on weapon choice and how they could make you appear to your peers.

   

   I personally don't care for guns like AR15's etc. because of how they make me look to myself, because whenever I see one in the flesh or on video (excluding the military) it always seems to have some "Bubba Looking Moron" on the other end of it doing something immature that fits right in with the "anti-gun stereotype, while at the same time ignoring most of the accepted gun safety rules. I know they are owned by sensible folks too, but that's the only time I see them in use, so they conjure up a negative image in my mind. Certainly it's appearance would not be beneficial if you were ever in a situation where someone was trying to portray your SD rights in a negative fashion and add to that some boxes of Hornady Zombie Ammo and you could really be made to look like a total nutcase. Hopefully for most of us that's an unlikely possibility and of course the State you live in also makes a big difference in possible outcomes for the same SD scenario.  

   

   The closest thing I have to that type of gun is my short barrel SKS's but I do not consider them as, or intend to use them as my every day SD weapons - they are more part of my end of civilization/major civil unrest/riot type scenarios.

   

   Millsriver, I certainly agree with your points on Hornady, I was horrified when I saw the ammo in Cabela's, you'd think a company like that would know better. Confusing the reality of guns and the  immaturity and violence of video games is potentially a dangerous recipe IMO.

[heyjoe]

IN this thread, on the one hand for the most part you have the people who HAVE testified and answered questions from grand juries and experienced and have had to answer with a straight face the sometimes ridiculous and non sequitor questions they come up with, on the other hand you have the people who have no experience at all and with much bravado because they currently are not on trial and dont think they ever will be, because it always happens to someone else right?,talk about Davy Crockett and Ted Nugent and the constitution.

   Davy Crocket and Ted Nugent are not going to be sitting next to you at the defense table, well except maybe for Whitehorse in his delusional state of make believe, but for the rest of us its going to be pretty lonely.

   I think Lohman hits the nail on the head and  would condense his argument down to there is no percentage in using "combat" type firearms for self defense or using zombie ammunition. The SP101 or Glock ( sorry Westerly and Redhawk) or smith and wesson with non zombie ammunition works just as well and without all of the negative associations if GOD FORBID YOU EVER HAD TO USE YOUR FIREARM IN SEF DEFENSE.

[glenn]

I sure as hell wouldn't wanna be sitting on the stand ... & looking at the jury's faces .. when the Prosecuting Attorney asked me the question   "If you are a sane, reasonable, adult man .. protecting yourself, family & home ... then why in the world did you kill this kid ... using a Zombie Killer Gun & Zombie Killer Ammo ?  Are Zombies REAL in your world ... therefore you have need for a Zombie Gun with Zombie Ammo ?"

   

   Yes .. it may be just a gun .. & just ammo .. but I would much rather not have to ever answer those questions on the stand !

   

   How would some of you that are defending this stuff answer those questions  

   "Well it was just cool"

   "All the Zombie Stuff was just for Fun"

   "I blow up Zombies all the time on my atari"

   Come on guys ... let's hear your answer to that question in front of a jury  (& you can bet it WILL be asked !)

   g

[theysayimnotme]

Some people seem to be missing the point. You are not going to be convicted because of the gun or ammo you use. It will simply be a PART of how they try to portray you. I have been on a total of seven juries & you would be amazed at all the things that come up during jury deliberations.

   You & both attorneys & the witnesses are constantly being evaluated.

[redhawk4]

I'm not so concerned with the jury/court issue in itself as much as the bigger picture where the same arguments that might come up in a court case can also be used to argue against responsible gun ownership. We had a 15 year old boy shot and killed, here at the Weekend, by Police because he took a handgun, bullet proof vest and a ski mask and went out into the streets creating the appearance that he might be on a shooting rampage and then fired at Police who tried to apprehend him. All we need is one crazy person shooting up a school or similar with a Zombie Annihilator rifle and Hornady Zombie Ammo, who also has a Zombie game on his Xbox or Playstation and can you imagine the media tirade against gun ownership and how hard it would be to defend, especially when the shooter goes for some sort of insanity plea where he claims he had fantasy and reality confused?

[chopprs]

#1: Theysay, you are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

   

   #2: Anyone that DEFENDS this ammo is a blithering IDIOT!

   

   #3: Anyone that BUYS this ammo is a blithering idiot!

   

   #4: Anyone that buys this ammo AND BUYS A ZOMBIE GUN is beyond all realization of ever achieving adulthood and should be seeking serious therapy as they should not be allowed to own firearms.  

   

   #5: (See #4) This IS NOT A JOKE NOR IS IT A VIDEO GAME! GROW UP!

[22man]

Louie, lawful use of guns in self-defense (no charges filed, or found not guilty) provides the legal shooter with Immunity from Civil Suits in some states such as Florida.  

   That means if you acted lawfully in self-defense, whether "stand your ground" on the street or "castle doctrine" at home, no worry about civil suits.  

   Thank God for the NRA and Republican state lawmakers/Governors.  

   

   The majority agree,,,,,Zombie bullets are silly and a possible legal hurdle,,,,,,,they're probably also a FAD and will fade like other things......

[lohman446]

"Some people seem to be missing the point. You are not going to be convicted because of the gun or ammo you use. It will simply be a PART of how they try to portray you. I have been on a total of seven juries & you would be amazed at all the things that come up during jury deliberations.  

   You & both attorneys & the witnesses are constantly being evaluated." -theysayitsnotme

   

   This is my point.  I don't want anything floating around in the jury members' heads.  I want to spend all my time and resources explaining that it was a legite shooting and not a criminal action.  Do I think using them makes it a criminal action?  No.  However I do think it may sway a jury into ruling a shooting that was legitimate is not.  

   

   I would much prefer the jury to look at the gun and think "wow, thats like granpa's" then think "who needs to own one of those and why?"

[theysayimnotme]

Now I feel better. I was worried that Chopprs was making sense for once. I can't possibly imagine how his head works. Even when I was agreeing with him he said that I was wrong.

[22man]

Calculated risk Lohman

   Not wanting to give offense to police or a jury when your life is on the line is understandable. Yet, if some guy wants to buy his dad .223 zombie rounds for his AR, that's his decision. Would I prefer that hornady not make ammo that appears to joke about self-defense, yep. Hornady is in business to make money. Hopefully their zombie sales will be low and the line will be short-lived. Has any of the more vocal opponents of the branding emailed or called hornady to voice their objections?  I would be interested in hearing managements defense of the product.

[redhawk4]

22 Man, good point on contacting Hornady, I was thinking about that earlier, I'd made a mental note not to buy any more their products because of the Zombie products, but as I'd not got round to communicating that to Hornady, I realized I still needed to do so.

   

   It didn't appear to be selling well in Cabelas, perhaps a complaint made at the retailers would also be valid.

   

   Theysay - I too was confused as to why Chopprs was disagreeing with you when it seemed to me like you were agreeing with him.

[chopprs]

......easy, I hate everyone!

[whitehorse]

Choppers,  

   

   does NAA new "SIDEWINDER" name have anything to do with a video game or does it offend you in anyway ?  

   

   Do they meet your politically correct sensitivities and approval ?

[heyjoe]

Mamaluke where are your guns?

[chopprs]

He is ignoring you because he has NO GUNS!

[whitehorse]

Heyjoe,  

   

   where is your honor and honesty ?

[heyjoe]

the deceitful and the dishonorable questioning honor and honesty. how ironic.

   

   now where are those guns again?

[whitehorse]

Ask PatriotJoe that has made me several very nice holsters.  

   

   How's your mom ?

[heyjoe]

she's still dead

   

   hows yours?

[grayelky]

Chopprs-

   Is everyone a blithering idiot? I am beginning to wonder if you are the leader of the pack. All it takes is for someone to have an opinion different from yours, and they are a blithering idiot.

   

   All-

   Will carrying a handgun that has been engraved make you more susceptible to prosecution? After all, why else would you carry a decorated gun other than to show off after shooting someone? Perhaps someone would carry a black gun w/ green writing because they like the physical appearance.

   

   Theysay makes a valid point: No one will be convicted because of the weapon or ammo they use. These items can, and may well be used to try and convict, or win in a civil suit. Redhawk then comes along with some good insight: The problem is not the Zombie ammo, it is the lack of maturity and character of some of the members of our society. Therefore, we all have to be so very careful as to create strife among ourselves having discussions about how we might look if we were to use a certain ammo to defend ourselves. Stop and think about the big picture created by those who would disarm us: They are winning the battle they want fought. If we are that paranoid over some ammo with a green tip, they have us well on the course they want traveled.

   

   Glenn wrote:

   "If you are a sane, reasonable, adult man .. protecting yourself, family & home ... then why in the world did you kill this kid ... using a Zombie Killer Gun & Zombie Killer Ammo ? Are Zombies REAL in your world ... therefore you have need for a Zombie Gun with Zombie Ammo ?"

   

   He wants those questions answered. Okay:

   

   I had the Zombie Killer ammo for the simple reason it was the only self defense ammo I could find at my local store that sells ammunition. I have learned the only difference in it and the Hornady Critical Defense ammo is the color of the tip. I know it to be good reliable ammo, and knowing I may have to shoot to stay alive, or keep my family alive, I wanted ammunition I could rely on. As to the "Zombie Killer" gun, I chose it for the simple reason I like the colors. Much like any other sane, reasonable person may pick a red car to drive or a green one. Its cosmetic appearance was appealing. I, like I hope you do, realize there are no such things as Zombies. And as to why did I kill him? I did not try to kill him. I tried to keep me alive. He was the one who broke into my home, threatened my life and my family. I only shot to stay alive. I do not have the power to kill anyone God wants to live, nor can I keep anyone alive God wants dead. I have seen too many times in my 28 year career as a Police Officer where people who I thought should have been dead, were able to live through their ordeal. I have also seen many who I could not understand why they died. The circumstances did not seem to me they should have been dead, but they were. May I further add, if I were in fact the delusional person you are trying to make me out to be, then please, sir, explain why I immediately called 911 and requested an ambulance for the intruder, and then administered first aid, trying to keep the man alive?

   

   I suspect few here would classify an 1911 style .45 caliber handgun as an assault weapon. It was THE handgun of choice for the US Military, and others for a very long time. Don't fall into the trap set about by those who hate firearms by making military weapons evil. Try and get a definition of an assault weapon. Some start with the phrase "automatic", and then use "semi-automatic that looks like a military rifle" interchangeably. No where in the second amendment does it refer to "sporting purposes" in defining the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. If I want a full auto weapon, why can't I have one? If I want a suppressor, why can't I have one? If anything, the spirit of the second amendment is to have the militia armed to keep the government honest, so having military grade weapons is completely in keeping with the spirit of the second amendment.

[whitehorse]

Heyjoe,  

   

   are you thinking you might be my son just because we both like guns ?  

   

   Is that why you keep asking me about my guns ?  

   

   Sorry to hear about your mom.  

   

   What is your blood type ?

[kalel01a]

All, sorry for the delay in my responses... Busy day at work, and I wanted PoBoySpecial to have a shot at answering you himself...  His response:

   

   The poboyspecial channel does not advocate juvenile video games that do not take life seriously.  We use popular media tools and strategies to create fun and informative videos.  Our purpose is not to end up in some kind of law suit, on the contrary.  We want to display conditions and techniques that no one else is using, yet provide entertainment that has a real purpose and result.  We appreciate all the comments and concerns about using the Zombie round in a video, it was intended to be fun and informative.  The question of law suits over a particular bullet name or design is rather mute if you are justified in using deadly force.  If you are truly justified in using deadly force, then it doesnt matter if you used a zombie bullet, brick, bat, stick, or knife.   The whole point is to know when to use deadly force (we pray we never have to do so) in a self protective situation, and also know what your weapon / ammo will do and is designed to do. 

   If you think the zombie thing is juvenile, OK thats why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors, so we have a choice. 

[kalel01a]

Now MY response...  You guys have let the 1 Z-Max bullet test distract you from some really interesting results.  Both the 22 short, and the Federal Bulk Pack HPs deflected off the skull.  In a true self defense situation (Zombie attack or just some punk trying to mug you) this is something to consider.  

   

   The FBI put out some interesting results regarding stopping power... It does not exist in ANY pistol round.  There are only 2 ways to be sure to stop an attacker:  1) cause sufficient blood loss to cause his body to stop functioning (this takes time), or 2) hit the brain (ironically the same way you have to kill a Zombie).  

   

   There are many videoes testing rounds through ballistics gel (representing center mass hits on an attacker).  One major gap in these tests (pointed out by the testers) was that bone will have a significant impact on the performance of the bullets.  We don't want to re-test in similar fashion as others who have gone before us.  We want to identify the gaps and try to fill them.

   

   From reading the forum marked What LR ammo do you carry?, CCI is a BIG hit in this crowd, along with Aquilla and Remington... I even saw a Federal bulk pack user out there.  We will pick up and test all of these rounds and anything else we can find for testing, and deliver the results asap (I am personally VERY curious... And I bet you are too).  Next after the LRs will be 22 mag rounds, then 25 acp, 32 and so on.  In the mean time, expect to see some 12 gauge, 45 , 9 and whatever else we feel like shooting that day... This IS for fun, after all.

   

   Lets keep the discussion alive, but for crying out loud, lets talk results too.  These tests are VERY informative!!!

[chopprs]

Grey, sometimes you are okay and sometimes you can be a real douche! The simple fact is that no grown adult that is walking around with a concealed weapon for the purpose of defending him or herself should have ammunition that has a video game theme or a comical idea about it. This is not a game, nor is it a comic or a cartoon. One of the biggest problems in this country is tht for a long tme now we have had fat kids! They are fat because they do not go out to play but sit on their asses and play video games. The games where they shoot eachother are the most popular. These kids have now grown up and have real guns! THIS IS WHY HORNADY HAS MARKETED THIS AMMO!!!!!!!!!!

   If you can not connect the dots try to follow along bere.....

   If a grown adult shoots someone with Superhero, Comic or some other fantasy ammo ANY Prosecutor and jury will tear him a new asshole. Did you read what it says on the box. "THIS AMMUNITION IS ONLY FOR ZOMBIES!" Do you not think a prosecting Attorney will ask a shooter if he thought the dead man was a Zombie? Any adult that carries this ammo in their gun is an IDIOT!!! .....and saying that it was the only ammo at the store will go about as far as your prik is long!

   For someone that owns a gun store you should know better!....GEEZ!

   

   Thanks for the info Kale!

[lohman446]

Gray I do not think you are wrong in what you are saying from the technical side.  I do not think you are wrong in your Constiuttional argument.    

   

   I do not want to make that argument to a jury.  Logical arguments fail on too high a percentage of the population and I do not trust they would not be on the jury.  Nor do I trust a lawyer to ask honest questions when prosecuting.  I do not want the jury to be distracted from anything but the issues surrounding a justifiable shooting.  The gun or ammo you chose to use could be a distraction.  

   

   While they may be the same Hornady labels them differently - with different warnings.  This is going to be a question presented as you try to explain they are the same.  Juries like simple arguments and yours is complex and scientific.  That it is accurate does not have as much meaning as the simpler "look at the box" argument.

   

   I don't have the problem others seem to with these being in existance.  They are kind of funny in a tongue in cheek kind of way.  They would never be in a gun I intended to use for defensive purposes.  

   

   As I have boiled it down before:  Lots of risk with zero advantage of normal ammo.

[RogueTS1]

Kale; based upon some of the other threads around here there will probably be some interest in the 25 acp results vs the 22 LR and Magnum results..... I for one am looking forward to what you come up with.

[kalel01a]

Roguets,

   

   We'll end up testing all these +.  I'm interested as well!

[theysayimnotme]

Actually the procecutor is not likely to ask you about the ammunition nor are you likely to have a chance to respond.

   The proscutor WILL point it out to the jury on numerous occassions. During opening & closing statements & when questioning several of his witnesses.  

   If you don't take the stand you will not have any chance to respond & if you do take the stand you may think you can outwit him. If you think that you are likely a fool. You are an amateur up against a trained & experienced professional.

   You could hope to face one of the two clowns that procecuted O.J. Simpson but I don't think they are still working.

[glenn]

Thank you for your response Elky ... & it actually was a pretty good one.      ... except there's still a hole in it.

   I suspect the next question would be ..(to you or just a question in opening/closing statements as someone else said) .. "Mr. Elky .. why did you blatently disregard manufacturers warnings & markings on the box .. that this ammo SHOULD NOT BE USED to shoot ANYTHING !   ?"   "Was your intent to STOP this kid .. or make him dead .. as it says on the amunition box  "MAKE DEAD - PERMANENT !"

   I hope you don't think I'm picking on you ... or anyone else for that matter !   I just think people need to think about this.   It's not a Lawyers job to be right or wrong or uphold the constitution or your rights ... it's his job to make you look / sound / act guilty or incompetent in the eyes of the jury ... so that his client gets money.  I'm not saying that this piece of human waste that invaded your home deserved any better than what he got ... I'm saying They will use ANY scrap of information that they can & twist it as far as they can to do this !   Anything that pointed to sillyness, tomfoolery, video game zombie killing, or just plain lack of the dire seriousness that taking a life should encompass .. would spell disaster for your team in the courtroom.

   I'm not here to make enemies or ruffle any feathers ... but I think this stuff needed discussed.   I think I've said my piece as clear as I can ... so thanks everyone for reading ..  

   ~G

[glenn]

Loh   yup ... I think this ammo is dumb ... but I'm gonna try to find a box for my "What Stupid Things People Will Buy" shelf.  I'll put it right next to my "Pet Rock".

   I get a feeling that this ammo won't be around for long .. & it sure would be a conversation piece in the future.  Hell it may even increase in value !

   ~G

[grayelky]

All-

   

   Now that I have had a chance to get you thinking, I hope, I will share with you my feelings:

   

   No, I would not carry it. Yes, I agree with you: If your shooting situation were to go to trial, you would have some serious uphill battles to fight, that you would likely loose. Should it matter that the ammo in your gun says "Zombie" on it? No, of course not. Should it matter if you have hand loads or factory ammo? Again, of course not.

   

   I think Hornady has a good marketing ploy, and I tell my customers so. I still sell it.

   

   Kalel01a

   I like the concept of your You Tube Channel, and your ideas. Like several others, I think you could get more interest from the shooting community with a slightly different name. If I just read the name of your sight, I doubt I would bother opening it. Since I now know a little more about it, I will be checking in on it. You have struck on a basic concept no one else seems to address: Hitting something besides cloth and flesh.

   

   Glenn-

   I do not feel you are picking on me. Trust me, I knew what I was getting into before I started typing my first response. As you may have noticed, I did kinda get a little more discussion going, didn't I? As I mentioned previously, I do hope at least some of the readers (not all of which bothered to respond) were stimulated to do some thinking, the type of which they would not have done had this thread gone the way it did. You may not know, but I was a police officer for a little over 28 years. I am well aware of the courts, how they operate, the trickery the defense will use to make a witness look incompetent, and how the prosecutors office is typically a training ground for soon to be defense attorneys.