Zombie stopping pootential of NAA mini revolvers

kalel01a · March-20-12 22:03

All, what is your opinion of HP vs. FMJ for rimfire cartriges used for self defense?



   Historically, I like HPs, but tnoutdoors9 on YouTube shows Solid Mini Mags reaching the 12-14 inch sweet spot from the new Ruger SR-22... Food for thought!!!



   Considering my Black Widow has only a 2" barrel and is a revolver, HPs may cause under penetration... Thoughts?

glenn · March-21-12 00:03

Ahhhhh ... very well done Elky. "Thinking" ... what a concept, huh ?

BTW ... thank you for your years of service !

g

lohman446 · March-21-12 05:03

Kale here is my opinion on it. Pentration + expansiton is great. However if you can only have one it better be penetration.



   Very few handguns carry enough energy to stop a human quickly based on energy impact alone without penetration. If you are hit by a mack truck penetration does not matter because the energy transfer alone is enough to stop you - this is not true with handguns.



   To better understand it take the extreme example. First take a bullet that has perfect expansion but zero penetration. It is going to hurt but it is not likely to stop an attacker from attacking. Next take a bullet that has zero expansion but "perfect" (through and through) penetration - it is much more likely to stop an attacker's aggressive behavior.



   Both are nice but if there is any question of only having one you better opt for penetration. Noone wants to be stabbed repeatedly by a .22 caliber sword - a .22 round (FMJ) should be able to do the same thing.



   For the record I so favor penetration that I do not even consider hollow points as a good defensive choice up to .380 - where I personally still chose FMJ until 9MM / 357.

kalel01a · March-21-12 06:03

Lohmann, well said!



   From the Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness handbook:

   "Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."

heyjoe · March-21-12 08:03

if this were true than law enforcement nation wide would be carrying full metal jacket ammo for maximum effectiveness due to maximum penetration. This is not the case. Every agancy i know of is carrying hollow points of one type or the other. Apparantly they have found that the penetration is sufficient and have opted for expansion at that acceptable penetration level.

lohman446 · March-21-12 09:03

Heyjoe I don't disagree - I don't know of any law enforcement officer being issued less than 9MM rounds in term of energy.



   Recall that I stated expansion + penetration was best and if you could only have one to take penetration. If you can have both take both.



   Edit: I do think that the value of expansion is drastically over valued though. Its nice to have but I don't think it is nearly as valuable as others do.

heyjoe · March-21-12 10:03

i agree with you Lohman about expansion + penetration being best. I was responding to Kale's post and its implications.

kalel01a · March-21-12 11:03

Heyjoe,



   I carry a 9 when I can, so I don't disagree either. The problem with small calibers (i.e. a 22 LR from 2" revolver) is getting that perfect mix of penetration and expansion. If I have to choose one, I'll take penetration.



   In a perfect world, our noisy cricket 22's would keep their advertised ammo velocities, penetrate perfectly while expanding, delivering all energy into its target and never over-penetrating. Unfortunately, that'll just not happen.



   So, what exactly are you disagreeing with me on?

heyjoe · March-21-12 12:03

im not disagreeng with you either. i was commenting on the quote from the FBI that you posted. its misleading and inaccurate. using a fmj round in a caliber such as 9mm could be and has been just as deadly to the person depending on it as underpenetration with a hollow point has been. The record of stopping the threat with fmj has consistently been poorer than hollow point from at least 32 acp and up in caliber according to the studies i have read. 25 acp and less i dont recall.

theysayimnotme · March-21-12 12:03

delete

theysayimnotme · March-21-12 12:03

delete

kalel01a · March-21-12 13:03

Heyjoe wrote:

   "im not disagreeng with you either. i was commenting on the quote from the FBI that you posted. its misleading and inaccurate. using a fmj round in a caliber such as 9mm could be and has been just as deadly to the person depending on it as underpenetration with a hollow point has been. The record of stopping the threat with fmj has consistently been poorer than hollow point from at least 32 acp and up in caliber according to the studies i have read. 25 acp and less i dont recall."



   That would actually make sense. In that article the only two guaranteed (100% never fail) ways to stop an attacker is 1) massive blood loss (enough to make the body stop functioning) and 2) a CNS (central nervous system) hit (BRAINS!!! again). The larger the bullet (either through caliber or expansion) the bigger the hole, the more damage and better chance to cause massive blood loss... that is as long as the bullet can penetrate deep enough to hit blood filled vital organs.



   I think we are close to the same page here.

kalel01a · March-22-12 19:03

We just produced another video... It isn't a mini, but it is very good!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQBabDWrchw&feature=youtube_gdata_player">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQBabDWrchw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

RogueTS1 · March-23-12 07:03

Very interesting video.

kalel01a · March-26-12 17:03

Hey All,



   We just got done testing the following rounds:

   CCI Stingers

   CCI Velocitors

   CCI Segmented Hollow Points

   12 ga wax slug penetration test with a look at down the barrel to let you see how it is after you shoot a wax slug.



   You can find the vids on our channel:

   http://www.youtube.com/user/poboyspecial/feed">http://www.youtube.com/user/poboyspecial/feed



   Thanks!

Uncle_Lee · March-27-12 04:03

When I am right, I am right and will stick with what I believe until proven wrong.

   I don't care if it has Zombies, dogs, cats, or whatever.

   I have watched a couple of the videos and they are really good.

   Keep up the good work.

   Bad Zombie, die you sucker.............

coinchop · March-27-12 05:03

I see in the MAY/JUNe American Handgunner 2012 page 95, there are Ka-Bar zombie killer knives, and an ad for MTM molded products company for a Zombie ammo can. I am starting to feel left out of the Zombie loop. Maybe the next time I reload some 357s I can add a little extra powder and have some real Zombie loads. Yea really!!!

lohman446 · March-27-12 06:03

What kind of Zombies are we talking? Are we going with the Zombies explained in The Walking Dead where all higher brain functions cease and only the basic instinct to feed (only on living flesh) and very basic motor skills are left as controlled by the brain stem with even pain recognition and reaction not functioning? It should also be noted that the brain stem then seems to have some independent source of oxygen exchange as it works seperately from the flow of blood.



    Or are we dealing with a more functional zombie that requires a circulatory or respitory system but operating more as an animal than a human on basic survival systems?



   If we are dealing with the first the need for precision is more vital than the need for massive damage. If we are dealing with the second than we can consider damage the same way we would with a normal human or animal.



   I think we have to settle the question of what the goals of the ammo are before we can really begin to test them

.

coinchop · March-27-12 06:03

I don't have a clue...



   On second thought maybe the zombies I see in my mind could just be voted out. Pelosi?

   And select others.../

kalel01a · March-27-12 06:03

"What kind of Zombies are we talking?"



   Lohman, good question. Let's assume that:

   1) The Zombie is determined, so it requires a CNS hit to stop it. It wants what you have and is willing to kill/die to get it.

   2) It is relatively similar to human physiology, and a significant trauma to the brain will stop it.



   The ZSP (Zombie Stopping Potential) rating is set up like this:

   A ZSP of 1 - The round shows very little ability to penetrate the skull and reach the brain.

   A ZSP of 2 - The bullet cracked the skull significantly and COULD cause some trauma to the CNS, but none was seen.

   A ZSP of 3 - The bullet did reach the brain and CAN stop a Zombie. Bullet placement is crucial and let's hope it's not a biker Zombie with a helmet!

   A ZSP of 4 - The bullet reached the brain and the trajectory/velocity was not significantly impacted by the skull. This is pretty much a 100% Zombie stop.

   A ZSP of 5 - Total decapitation! Guaranteed Zombie stop!



   As you can tell, a good Zombie stopper is 4 & 5 where 3 is acceptable, but you probably wouldn't want a 3 as a primary weapon.

heyjoe · March-27-12 07:03

in the walking dead, how do zombies make vocal sounds when they dont breath? you need air to make vocal sounds.

RogueTS1 · March-27-12 07:03

As a side note; a Zombie of the first choice would be much easier to deal with as they slow down and have very little cognative skills. More precision in the sense that to kill they need a brain shot but they really cannot rush you. Plus as time goes on they slow down even more as the decay away.



   A zombie of the second type is more like a deranged person/animal that has speed and cognative skills.



   If a bite is all it takes to ruin your life I will choose the first zombie and don road racing motorcyle leathers and helmet along with my handy zombie killing AR, LOL, and chances are pretty good of survival.

kalel01a · March-27-12 07:03

Here's a better one, shouldn't they freeze like popsicles in the winter time?

RogueTS1 · March-27-12 07:03

If it is cold enough until the Spring thaw.

If you have not read the Zombie Survival Guide you should. It is an interesting and entertaining book. It is written surprisingly by the son of a very famous person whom I cannot think of the name at the moment.

kalel01a · March-27-12 08:03

Max Brooks... yeah, that book and World War Z. Entertaining like you said.

lohman446 · March-27-12 08:03

I think the zombie discussion is an interesting intellectual exercise. The marketing towards it (not necessarily these tests) strikes me as concerning.

lohman446 · March-27-12 08:03

I think the zombie discussion is an interesting intellectual exercise. The marketing towards it (not necessarily these tests) strikes me as concerning.

kalel01a · March-27-12 08:03

Lohman,



   Ya know, it's always been here... when I was a kid it was cowboys and indians. Before that it was probably red-coats and patriots all the way back to gladiators.



   I think this is part of social awakening in the US that out of the 240 million people living here, only about 20% are even remotely self-sufficient. Given the opportunity, the other 80% will devour you to get what they want. Just my 2 cents worth.



   In order to be a good guy, there has to be a bad guy to fight.

lohman446 · March-27-12 08:03

Its always been there but I do not think bullet and gun makers were labeling "indian killing" ammo. Granted its not the same (we understand Zombies do not exist and there is a sensitivity issue) but the makers of deadly items (guns and ammo) marketting to these games is slightly disconcerting.

kalel01a · March-29-12 07:03

Lohman,



   Well ya got me there. I actually searched for "Indian Killing" bullets to prove you wrong, but couldn't find any. I'm oddly re-assured by that! Evidently the ammunition manufacturers took bullets more seriously back then.



   I guess Zombies and snipes are in the same category, but you don't see snipe bullets either!

azkahuna · March-29-12 15:03

As a newbie I find it interesting and quite humorous to see how fast you guys go off-topic. Here's my nickel ...

The use of "Zombie" is a marketing tactic (ploy) to create sales ... period. I should know because I'm a marketing guy. Whether it's video games, firearms, ammo, or Capt. Crunch, if it sells that's all that matters.

chopprs · March-29-12 15:03

I think it kills sales, the absolute opposite of the intent. every LGS around here has the same boxes that they got months ago with dust on them. Maybe one or two sold is all.

One thing is for sure, I had a great amount of respect for Hornady until they did that. I have now lost all respect for them and think they are a bunch of idiot children to put something that stupid out.....

westerly1965 · March-29-12 15:03

I would note that they have not sold well around here either. Whether or not it is working as a marketing scheme overall I have no idea. I also have not lost all respect for Hornady as a company though it certainly has effected my opinion of them. BUT most of the shops that had them around me still have them from their initial order so that says something.

glenn · March-29-12 16:03

Wes ... the Zombie Killing ammo is still on the shelves because it is no longer needed. I bought my NAA 22 Short & 2 boxes of Winchester Super-X shorts a while back & wiped out EVERY durn Zombie in North America. Don't believe me

Show me proof of just one Zombie left !

Now all this buncombe can stop ... they're ALL gone ! 8^)

flowder · March-29-12 17:03

M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round works as well as anything in stopping power...LOL. Isn't all Ammo designed to kill or maim. To me in a court of law. If you are using a weapon such as a gun then you are intending to kill or maim. I guess you could argue that "pink grips" were not really supposed to be that deadly and intended to make the weapon softer and easier to hold and therefore you did not mean to kill or maim. I do not believe in zombies. But, I assume all these mental cases lately have done nothing to extend the thinking man or womans 2nd ammendment rights. I would tend to agree that marketers will do what they can to sell a product. I tend to also agree that cowboys or indians or gladiators is probably true to form. I for one don't buy anti Zombie products.