.22 Magnum VS 380 ACP

[nakagawa]

I keep hearing every where that .22 magnum is reaching similar ballistics to 380 ACP. Could anyone enlighten me on the matter or guide me to some ballistic charts that test this statement? I am just curious. Also, anyone pick one over the other for any particular reason? I have two NAA guns with one of each caliber and some times find myself carrying the two and its somewhat misleading seeing the two cartridges together and to know they reach similar ballistics.

[Uncle_Lee]

Try this link:

   

   

   http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/">http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/

[gunr]

Ballistics don't always tell the whole story. I would personally pick the .380 for knock down power. Of courese the style of bullet chosen would have a lot to do with it.

[sab]

I suspect much of that talk is fraught with "truthiness" at best, or is outright sales hype at worst. And I guess that depends on what sort of ballistics measurements they're talking about. Muzzle energy? Heck no - at best it might get into .32 ACP territory out of short 1"-2" barrels. Velocity? Yeah, that seems reasonable. Penetration? That's trickier - it might penetrate as far as a .380, but that's not the whole story either.  

   

   Intuitively, I think we all recognize that a .380 is clearly a superior choice for SD purposes. However, good .380 ammo can be hard to come by sometimes compared to .22WMR. It's also not much fun to shoot many of the new pocket-sized .380s on the market. And those pocket .380s are still not as concealable as a mini-revolver. So, it comes down to an individual's choices.

[bud]

there is a good article in handgunner magazine on this subject starting on page49.

   NAA is mentioned in the article.

   

   Digital Editions | American Handgunner

   http://www.americanhandgunner.com/digital-editions/">www.americanhandgunner.com/digital-editions/

   Enjoy These Digital Editions Of American Handgunner Click the magazine cover and follow the on ... Click Here To View The May/June 2012 Digital Edition ...

[bud]

Forgot to mention it is the May/June 2012 issue.

[santa]

I have carried a 22 magnum mini-revolver with a 1 5/8 inch barrel for many years.  We all realize how easy it is to conceal therefore a person is able to carry it far more often than a larger weapon. There are several factors in comparing the 22 mag and a 380. From what Ive seen the 380 is somewhat superior to the 22 mag, but not all that much with all factors taken into consideration.  The small 380s on the market are hard to fire because of the weight.  The 22 mag is much easier to fire giving a person a better chance to get more shots off with accuracy. Then the 22 mag ammunltion is more available than 380. Lastly IF you have a 22 mag-22LR conversion you can use regular 22LR(or short, birdshot,long) which is by far the the most common caliber in the world.  The 22 in your hand is better than the 45,357,38,380 you have at home.

[kalel01a]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS_KS1U3aBk&feature=youtube_gdata_player">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS_KS1U3aBk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

   

   A video is worth a thousand words.

   

   Since i don't believe in stopping power for a handgun, it is all around bullet placement and adequate bullet penetration.  

   

   The 22 wmr penetrated just over 8 inches in the video.  That would probably get the brain through the skull but may not reach a vital organ if the angle of penetration is not optimal.  That is why the FBI recommends 12-14 inches of penetration.  22 FMJs may actually be preferable to HPs for that reason.

   

   Poboyspecial will test the 22 WMRs in the future to check for adequate skull penetration.  In the mean time, I second Santas view on the 22LR/mag cylinder points.  Practice a LOT if you stake your life on you firearm.  22 LRs are cheap enough to allow you to do that!!!

[nakagawa]

I do find myself carrying my BW a lot more than my Guardian 380 these days. I only find myself carrying my SP101 or PX4 when I go way out of my ways somewhere. I have my BW on me at home all the time. I love the Guardian, but even if it is pocketable, it is one heavy little gun. I shot the Guardian during my last range session and even with the weight, due to the design, it does hurt the hand (at least for me) enough to only shoot enough to reassure efficiency with the gun. I am much more accurate with my BW and even if it is SA, I fire it much faster than the guardian. I have a feeling I will soon become more confident in my efficiency with my BW over my Guardian, hence why I asked the question in the OP, as I see myself exclusively starting to carry just my mini.  

   

   Hopefully the sidewinder is everything I want it to be as a SA, swing out cylinder mini. If it is, a sidewinder and a BW combination would be something I may consider carrying daily over my usual Guardian carry.  

   

   Everyone's post has been extremely helpful so far. Thanks.

[redhawk4]

I don't see how a .355" diameter 90 gr bullet at about 1000 fps can have anything close to similar ballistics as a .22 diameter 50gr bullet at about 765 fps from a short mini revolver.

   

   People might be confusing rifle and handgun ballistics for 22 mag, when making comparisons.

[kalel01a]

Red, did you watch the video I posted?  The energy transfer for the 380 is huge up front slowing it down and stopping it early.  The 22 mag, being smaller passes through the media with ease, until expansion slows the round down.  Both got around 8 inches of penetration... If that is what you are comparing, then they are similar.

[gunr]

Kale, with respect,

   I don't see how you can discount stopping power so much. It's like being hit with a cement block at 30 fps, and a phonograph needle at 3000 fps. If the needle gets you in a vital spot, it will probably kill you............................eventually!  

   On the other hand, a cement block may or may not kill you, but in most cases, it will stop you in your tracks!

   Stopping power and killing power are two different things. The primary objective in a self defense situation is to stop the aggression by what ever means are available. The fact that the attacker may die because of your bullet is not the primary consideration in the split second that one may have when defending your life.

   An attacker who has a mortal wound from your bullet, but does not immediately cease the attack, may still end up killing you!

   Ask any WW2 soldier who was faced with a banzi driven attack, what his preferred weapon might have been, when the attacker was inches from his face! My guess would be The .45 ACP

[kalel01a]

Gunr,

   

   Stopping power is a myth.  It's probability, chance and percentages.  Basically gambling.

   

   When I pick out a handgun, here's my criteria:

   1) It has to go bang 100% of the time I pull the trigger.

   2) The ammunition has to be cheap enough for me to stock up on.

   3) The bullets have to give adequate penetration to reach vital organs 100% of the time.

   4) The firearms + ammo combo have to support my abilty to accurately hit my target 100% of the time (sometimes with practice... Minis are a LOT harder to shoot than full sized pistols).

   5)  If it's for CCW, it has to be small enough for me to carry 100% of the time it's legal to do so.

   

   As you can see, I have a LOT of 100%s up there.  When it comes to my CCW, I don't wanna gamble on it.  The sure bet is on bullet placement and penetration.  The gamble is on "stopping power" as there are too many factors to guarantee stopping power.

   

   Still, if all things are equal, I'll go with the bigger bullet...  makes a bigger hole and causes more blood loss.

   

   Hope that clears up my philosophy a little and I didn't mean to insult yours.

[redhawk4]

Kale, if you want to try and re-invent the laws of physics, good luck to you, but with all respect your are talking nonsense about stopping power.

   

   I suggest you do a little more research than skewing the results of a Youtube video before reaching erroneous conclusions.

   

   Even Brasscatcher show that a decent 380 round like Corbon penetrates more in the 11-12" range, but even with the same penetration a larger caliber will always make a bigger hole and because more energy is needed to stop the heavier bullet in the same distance, more damage is done a round the wound path.

[lohman446]

These are only partially relevant discussions and fail to include one premise.

   

   If you are counting on any handgun, for purely physicological reasons, to stop an attacker quickly you are screwed.  

   

   Defensive carry handguns (no I am not talking about the 460 S+W) are sorely inadaquate based on the energy numbers to depend on to stop an aggressive and determined attacker quickly through energy transfer and "stopping" power. They simply lack the energy to do so.  

   

   Yes there are a lot of caveats in that sentence.  Please not there is a massive difference between stopping an attack quickly and eventually rendering unable to continue the attack.  

   

   "Oh look, this 380 is almost as good as a 45" gives the mistaken impression that a 45 is dependable.  May it be one of the best available in defensive handguns?  Sure.  Does that alone make it good?  No.  In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

[RogueTS1]

Let us not forget that with only a few exceptions most "bad guys" are dirt bag amateurs. Very few are there fighting for a cause or their lives or the lives of their comrades. Hence usually when wounded they lose the will to fight and gain a very big incentive to retreat (read run for their lives.)

   

   The bigger and faster the round the more energy is dumped into said bad guy hence bigger and or faster is almost always better but we must not forget the concept of diminishing returns.  

   

   Is the said set up good enough for the mission at hand? If so anything better is simply icing on the cake along with its associated advantages and disadvantages. It is a matter of choice for the individual and the circumstances that may or may not present themselves.  

   

   I kind of like the old saying; "In every day carry no handgun is small enough. In a gunfight no handgun is big enough."

[lohman446]

Rogue that is kind of my point.  Most handgun owners fail to understand that, if they must use their handgun, they are dependent on psychological factors.  Franklly if producing a handgun does not psychologically end the fight most of us are prepared to fire and hit our opponent.  This is where we are mistaken.  Hitting our opponent (even well) will likely not physiologically end the fight - we are still dependent on psychological factors.  

   

   I watched one guy at a class once fire a single shot and set his gun down during a drill simulating an oncoming attacker.  The target kept moving forward (indicating the threat had not ended) and his gun was sitting on the bench in front of him.  The instructor asked why and the shooter explained that with the gun he was using and as good a shot he was (it was just outside of the x ring) that the target would not have continued advancing.  While most would not be as bold as to ignore drill instructions because of such thoughts many handgun owners believe it.

[heyjoe]

especially when they have zombie ammo in that knockdown caliber.

[kalel01a]

Redhawk4 wrote:

   "Kale, if you want to try and re-invent the laws of physics, good luck to you, but with all respect your are talking nonsense about stopping power."

   

   Red, can you please define stopping power for me?  Before you do though, Lohman already stated that:

   "Defensive carry handguns (no I am not talking about the 460 S+W) are sorely inadaquate based on the energy numbers to depend on to stop an aggressive and determined attacker quickly through energy transfer and "stopping" power. They simply lack the energy to do so."  

   

   I have the numbers to back him up on this, so if that's your definition, I'll be happy to share the stats from the FBI to help you out.

   

   Stopping Power of a handgun is a term magazine owners use to sell subscriptions.  PERIOD.  

   

   I used to buy into it until I read this article:

   Patrick, Urey W.:"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness."  U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1989.

   

   That's where I'd be getting my stats for stopping power (or lack there of), by the way... Good read... long but good.  

   

   Let me know what you think!

[gunr]

How about a 2X4 across the face! Is that "stopping" power?

[kalel01a]

Gunr,

   

   LOL... now that's funny.

   

   Does it have 22, 9mm, 40 or 45 cal nails driven through it?

[redhawk4]

I don't need to define the elusive concept of stopping power Kale to know your statements are not based on fact. If you want to argue that 22 mag is as good as 380, 9mm, 45acp or whatever go ahead, I'm not going to bother to engage in that discussion as it runs in the face of all theory, science and practical knowledge that has been attained over the years in actual shootings, military engagements and hunting activities.

[lohman446]

Is .45 better than 22?  Of course it is.  However, as noted above in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.  

   

   The .45 (10MM, 357) is not going to reliably stop an aggressive determined attacker through physiological means in a manner that will quickly end aggressive behavior.

   

   Lots of caveats but it is an accurate statement supported by the numbers of energy and energy transfer.  I think it is an importnat statement to make.  Your handgun is nice and you carry it for reason.  I am not suggesting you should not.  However you should be prepared for the distinct possibility that the reason may be to give you a better chance at winning the confrontation that does not end when the shots are fired.

[kalel01a]

Red,

   

   I NEVER said that I based ballistics soely on penetration... I said if you WERE basing ballistics performance STRICTLY on penetration, then the BrassFetchers video supported the conclusion that the 22 MAG is similar to the 380... I personall DON'T base ballistics simply on penetration... although it is high on the list.  

   

   Here's a quote from me from a previous post:

   "Still, if all things are equal, I'll go with the bigger bullet... makes a bigger hole and causes more blood loss."

   

   There's still no such thing as stopping power though (big grin!)

[gunr]

Kale,

   .600 Nitro Express nails, double barreled!

[kalel01a]

Gunr,

   

   HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! I laughed... I actually laughed... That'll do it!

[kalel01a]

Lohman wrote:

   "However you should be prepared for the distinct possibility that the reason may be to give you a better chance at winning the confrontation that does not end when the shots are fired."

   

   Amen brother, amen

[santa]

The 357 magnum is often called the "gold standard" of stopping power. BUT that being said I read that in 92% of the time when ANY CALIBER handgun is displayed and NOT fired the threat(BG) backs off. In the remaining 8%, 90% of those times that the gun is actually fired even only once, the BG quits the assault;runs away(you missed),is wounded(mabye he can still run) or is killed. That means that once your gun is out whether fired or not the odds are better than 99% that whatever caliber you have will work. Only in a tiny tiny % of the time a second shot really needed. BUT YOU NEED TO FIRE THE GUN UNTILL THE THREAT IS NEUTRALIZED. NEVER USE UP ALL OF YOUR SHOTS AS THERE MIGHT BE A SECOND OR EVEN A THIRD THREAT.  The times you hear of a drug-crazed BG continueing the attack after being shot several times do happen, but OVERALL they are uncommon.

[santa]

Hi Gunr.

[heyjoe]

i was involved in something twice which had an infitismal probability of happening, a fraction of 1% but happened it did. so with my luck i wouldnt count out that 1% for myself

[Kevin]

The bigger gun always has the edge, because as everyone knows - from TV and the movies - when you finish shooting it dry, you throw it at your assailant! That's why a S&W .44Mag will always beat an NAA mini-revolver and a Colt .45 will always beat an NAA Guardian. It's not the stopping power, it's the pitching power.

[22man]

Nakagawa,

   

   Speed/Velocity of Bullet

   Mass/Weight(grains) of Bullet

   Length of Gun Barrel

   Penetration

   Shot placement

   

   these are just some of the factors when comparing 22M to 380

   the 380 has an edge with a heavier projectile,,,,maybe 95grains vs 45 grains....

   centerfire ammo is generally thought to be more reliable than rimfire ammo as well.

   

   on the other hand, the 22M is primarily shot out of a revolver which is generally more reliable than semi-autos.  

   

   Some test results I've seen show the 22M and 380 having similar ballistic gelatin penetration depths and comparable wound channels.  

   And as you said, your BW is very light and concealable and always with you.

   

   If a 45 gr 22M from a 1.87" barrel gun penetrates to 9.5inches at 1038fps,,,,,, and the .380 90 gr from a longer 2.75" barrel gun goes 10" with 896fps,,,,,, I'd say that's pretty comparable. Reference the Hornady Ballistic test in this link:

   http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/">http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/

[Uncle_Lee]

22man,

   No one is actually reading the posts or checking out the links. They are just arguing with themselves.

   

   Why do I say this?

   

   I posted that link in the first response to the original question.

[redhawk4]

Corbon 90gr at over 1000 fps from an NAA Guardian will penetrate 11-12", so yes if you want to limit yourself to Hornady's Ammo there may be some comparison, but if you shop for the best performing 380 Ammo it's not even close.

[lohman446]

Ahh the ammo game.  We take the best performing ammo of a particular caliber and compare it to the worst performing ammo of another caliber and announce it "just as good".  

   

   We are not even certain our testing methods are valid in regards to real world performance but they sure do sell a lot of magazines.  Frankly I think that is the only validity the writers are concerned with.