New guy with new Pug - had some issues...

[websniper]

I've been lurking the forum for about a week since I discovered the existence of the Pug... Found a LGS with a Pug in stock with the tritium site and made some cockamamie excuse to head to the gunshop and have it come home with me!  

   

   Planning to carry the little guy in my jersey pocket while riding, so got the gun and 2 boxes each of CCI SB and Hornady CB.

   

   First 20 rounds of Hornady were fine. Started to fire the CCI, and immediately had the cylinder jam.  This happened once with each cylinder full of the CCI's I fired, then once with one loading of the Hornady's later on.  

   

   I love the little pistol, it's fun to shoot and accurate, but was really disappointed with this functional issue.  It does not inspire confidence for carry.  So I guess I'll continue carrying my P32 for the time being.  

   

   Also, the AO XS sites are great, but my gun does not shoot to point of aim with either type of ammo I fired at 5 yards.  It shoots high with both, and I had to modify my hold to hit center of target.  Anyone else have this issue with their Pug?

[Uncle_Lee]

Welcome.

   

   I have had no problems with mine at all.

[bud]

No problems with mine either.

   Dumb suggestion, but make sure your mags. are seated all the way in the cylinder when loading your Pug.

[websniper]

Yup, rounds are fully seated.  In fact, some rounds need a little pursuasion to get the empties out.

[mndoug]

I add my welcome!  As to your problem... the scientific method would have us eliminate the variables in the equation to identify possible problems.  So when you take away the ammo (which you seem to have done), the only possible malfunction is 1) in the gun, or 2) in the shooter!

   

   That's a overwrought way of saying... check how you're holding the gun at the moment of trigger release.  I had a real problem holding my Pug tightly and pulling that tough trigger.  So I changed to the larger grips, and the problem was solved.

   

   Not saying it IS you, you MAYBE?

[websniper]

Having worked in a gun shop and currently as an IT consultant, I can say that quite often the user is indeed the issue.  However, that being said, I believe it may be the gun and I don't quite understand what bearing a weak hold would have on a revolver.  I have seen people limp wrist autos...

   

   Anyway, I've only fired the pug once(but have fired other minis), so I plan on taking it out again tomorrow to see if the issue repeats itself, which I'm sure it will.  Most likely it seems like the consensus is to contact NAA and have them make it right.

[heyjoe]

what is the overal length of the cci compared to the hornady? you would be surprised at variations of the overall length even in the same box of ammo.

   

   could the gap between the cylinder and barrel be too tight?

[22man]

Sniper, I remember someone had a similar issue with a naa some time ago. Something to do with the bullet cases or primer edges bulging when fired and making cylinder rotation difficult or impossible.  

   Since you have the pug's more solid locking cylinder pin, and you're having issues with Cci & hornady,,,,,,,I'd say a call to naa may prove helpful. I believe that the person from the thread with the similar issue was able to reduce/file down some surface area on the back of the frame inside the cylinder window. If you're able to, talk to an naa smith, and/or ship it to them.

   Best wishes with your pug. Mine is a dandy lil gun of good design and solid workmanship.

[22man]

here's a thread that may be helpful on the subject....(member "Gunr" filed his frame with advice from the naa smith, member "hicompression" sent it back to naa to be fixed; both got the problem resolved satisfactorily I believe):::::

   

   ./discus/messages/670/31697.html

[websniper]

My dad is actually a gunsmith and he believes that it is similar to HiCompression's issue where the counterbore is not deep enough and/or milling on the cylinder was off and the cylinder is too long.  I will be calling NAA on Tuesday to request they send a call tag.

[websniper]

Talked to someone at NAA today.  The Pug will be going in for warranty service.  The crummy part is that I was told turn around time is three weeks.  I have to say this is he first time that I've ever purchased a new firearm and had to send it back to the factory.  Nothing is worse than getting a new toy and then having to part with it right away....

   

   At this moment I'm kind of wishing I'd bought the NIB standard mag/lr combo they had in stock.  Perhaps it would not have had the same issue.

[capn]

Ahhhh, the delayed gratification will pass and be forgotten when you receive the 100% functional Pug back.

   

   Hang in there.

[chopprs]

They are very honest about how long it will take up front so you can not get angry. They will buff it up and put a new Main Spring in it along with actually fire it for testing. They are really good about guns going out actually fixed! You will be happy!

[websniper]

I'm hoping so!

[websniper]

Good news, spoke with Jessica on Tuesday and the Pug is on its way back, along with an extra LR cylinder!  If I'm lucky (which I'm usually not...) it will be back before Saturday in time for me to pick it up in the morning before the wedding I have to go to...

   

   I am quite impressed they they gave an estimate on return time and came in under.  Always better than the other way around.

[jestus]

Websniper,

   

   '... in time for me to pick it up in the morning before the wedding..."

   

   Is this a "Mini" version of a shotgun wedding?

   

   )

[websniper]

Haha, maybe!  The couple's courting period was rather short!

   

   I'd like to have the pug in my jacket pocket in time to take it along...

[bleak_window]

An extra factory-fitted LR cylinder!  That's a pretty sweet bonus.  Those things are going for $200 - $300 on eBay.

[websniper]

It was only $40 for the fitted spare cylinder.  They cut me a break since I had issues with the new gun.  I dunno why anyone would pay that eBay price when you can get one fitted at the factory for $50....

[websniper]

Pug is back! Going to pick her up at the LGS tonight!  She's definitely coming to the wedding with me now! LOL

   

   Just wish I'd ordered a holster when it went back.... Nobodys fault but mine....

[bleak_window]

No need for a holster.  Just use the Pug as a tie clasp with .22 Magnum shells as cufflinks.

[websniper]

So, got the Pug back on Friday and just had it at the range....

   

   And unfortunately I've been disappointed by my first mini yet again.

   

   The first cylinder full of Hornady mags jammed the cylinder again.   In NAA's defense.  The cylinder recesses SEEM to be deeper, however I also had a failure to fire in the first cylinder. The strike was light on it.  Unfortunately, I didn't keep that round( I re-struck it).  I'm now wondering if they reeked the chambers too deep.

   

   I did fire about 25 rounds each of Hornady CD and Speer GD.

   

   I'm also frankly pissed that the POI is still a freaking foot (12 inches) above the POA (point of aim).

   

   Before anybody wigs out on me,  I did try holding the revolver wih a death grip, and it does make a small difference, but not enough to matter.  What's the point of having quality sites if you cannot use a proper site picture?  ESPECIALLY on a purported SD firearm....

   

   I really am tying hard to love this gun, I think it's a cool firearm, but never in my life have I had these kinds of problems with a revolver, even a .22...

   

   I was so I disappointed with these issues that I didn't even try firing the LR cylinder.  Honestly,  I'm one more malfunction away from trading it for a LCP.

   

   I'm going to give NAA one more chance/call about the POI/POA problems, as the Hornady ammo could be problematic (which sucks because it groups better and I like the bullet design better than the GDHP SB).

   

   If they want me to send it in again, I'm finished.  I'm hoping they can provide me with a different height front or rear site.

[Dinadan]

Websniper - how far away was the target? I really would try shooting from a rest,  

   not just a "death grip" just to see if it makes a difference. The first time I shot  

   my Pug from rest position I was surprised to see how much of my inaccuracy was  

   just me, not the gun.

[websniper]

It's not that the gun is not accurate.  If you would have read my original post, or the rest of thread, you would have seen that I even commented that the gun was pleasingly accurate, and that some others had suggested a tighter grip on the gun could affect the point of aim.  The gun just doesn't shoot to the point of aim.  Generally, most fixed site guns should shoot to close to point of aim and typically with a hold where you cover the intended point of impact with the front site.  You do NOT want to have to adjust your hold on a SD gun.  For target shooting, I actually prefer a 6 o'clock hold for target shooting with open sites, but it is not something that you are going to remember to do in a SHTF situation.  Nor should you have to.

   

   The minis may work for some as a pocket gun, but I'm questioning weather these are truly SD material rather than an entertaining novelty.  Not because of caliber or being single action, but due to these quality control issues.

[websniper]

edit:  *whether

[blazinwv]

Web,

   

   Good luck with an lcp if you chose that route......talk about bad sights! I am far more accurate with my BW and 1-1/8 LR. Then again, it could be my eye sight. Being in my late 40's I am currently just too vein to go to the eye doc!

[websniper]

True, the LCP sites are not great, but like the kel tec 32's and 380's, they "point" well.  But, had they put  "real sites" on any of those guns, I would expect them to shoot to point of aim (within reason) as well.  10-12 inches off at 5 yards is not "within reason" at least to me...

[websniper]

I'd also like to mention that, had I known, I would have brought A LOT more gun to the wedding I had to go to yesterday...

   

   It was in an extremely poor neighborhood in a city known for violence and drugs.  Heck, I'd probably have been outgunned with my G19....

[RogueTS1]

I hope your Pug problems get figured out. I have 4 Minis, some with the XS sights and some with the blade front sights, and all will shoot POA into a roughly quarter sized mark on a paper plate at 3 to 5 yards both with the 22 mag and LR cylinders as fast as you can cock and squeeze. Pug does shoot a tiny bit (1.5") low but easily adjusted sight picture.

[websniper]

Right.  I can see an inch and a half.  That would be quite reasonable to me.  I emailed Jessica this morning and will probably call at lunch time to see of I can talk to a smith.  My dad (who is a trained gunsmith) offered to reshape the rear sight for me, but I want to give NAA a chance to see how they will take care of it.

[capn]

Been meaning to check my logbook -- so just did -- because my Pug shoots high, too:

   

   (all fired at ten yards from muzzle)

   

   5" high with Hornady Critical Defense 45-gr (best group)

   7-1/2" high with Speer Gold Dot JHP 40-gr

   10" high with Federal Game-Shok 50-gr

   

   Will later test using altered sight picture with 1/2 the front sight ball in the v-notch vs the whole front sight ball.

[heyjoe]

you do realize that the mini revolvers are only meant for reach out and touch you distances and less accurately out to about ten feet tops?  

   seecamps dont even come with sights. these are point and shoot guns.

[gunr]

I can understand why most folks would want reasonable accuracy from their handgun, but to expect much from a weapon with a super short barrel, and weighing just a few ounces, is not what I would call reasonable. I'm sure some will disagree with me.  

   I have two mini's and an Earl with a 4" barrel. I shoot the Earl often, and love bouncing a tin cans around at 25 yards or so. I wouldn't even consider using either of my mini's (both with 1 1/8" barrel)for anything over 5'. These little guns are great for what I think they are primarily made for, which is a "back up" self defense weapon!, for someone who is "in your face" and threatening you!  

   If you want to play around with these little guns, then get an Earl, or a Sheriff, or something with more than 1' or 1 1/8" barrel.

[websniper]

So what your saying Gunr is that NAA is putting good sites on the Pug as a marketing ploy to lure suckers such as myself into believing that the little guys can be taken seriously for SD?

   

   If that's the case, it worked...

   

   Also, never have I said that the gun was not accurate, just that it doesn't shoot anywhere near point of aim.  If putting the sights on was anything more than fluff to sell guns and give it tacti-cool appeal.  They should make a reasonable effort to make the gun shoot to POA.  I'd rather the pug had no sights at all than have good sights that don't shoot where you point 'em.  Heck, even the crude "sights" on my P32, which amount to little more than sighting down the slide, shoot right where I point them.

   

   Capn, thanks for that information,  I'm guessing that NAA has some tolerance issues when milling the dovetail for the sights or have selected sights that aren't quite the right height.  

   

   FYI, I have recieved an email back stating that my issue was forwarded to a smith for commentary.

   

   Most likely I'm going to end up having my smith modify the rear sight, since I'm still fascinated with this little thing.

   

   FWIW Gunr, I actually was considering getting a BW too as a plinker/pest control gun, but the issues I've had with the pug are giving me reservations....

[gunr]

Had the same problem with my Magnum mini, not enough clearance between the back of the cylinder and lower opening.

   I think the biggest problem with not shooting towards point of aim, may be the fact that the gun weighs so little that the different kinds of ammo are going to effect it differently. Again, you wont need to worry about it at the range the gun was intended for.

   And also again. I really like my Earl, have both cylinders, hardly ever use the mag. Most tin cans don't care if they are hit with a bullet at 700 fps, or one at 1100 fps